Chameleon1
New Member
Whoooo Raaaaaa Marine!
Thats the Army bud! OOOORAAH is for us devil dogs!!!! Papa u just made me love this grow even better knowing that ur a Marine!!! Semper Fi do or DIE!
Utopian Submarine - 2000W, Indoor, Perpetual
- Thread starter Green Utopia
- Start date
Thats the Army bud! OOOORAAH is for us devil dogs!!!! Papa u just made me love this grow even better knowing that ur a Marine!!! Semper Fi do or DIE!
your lights are not a purely resitive load. the tungsten rating is the rating you should adhere to when using this timer for lamp (inductive) loads.
btw....when I was in the Seabees and we were receiving tourniquet training for battlefield dressing, the corpman had to make sure that the jarheads in the training understood that you could not use a tourniquet for head wounds...lol...
- Thread starter
- #583
Green Utopia
New Member
harvest. Ok, im down for seeing that
Pics soon - crazy week!
Whoooo Raaaaaa Marine!
Thanks guys!
Thanks for the input on the timer. I was thinking the same thing. I checked the timer in question again, and it is not labeled with that type of warning, but I think I'm going to use that as a general guideline from now on.
You could tourniquet my head right now. My brain wouldn't notice any lack of blood flow these days.
Gotta love those corpmen. Best doctors I've ever seen - peace or war.
Leave Weaver
New Member
amazing pics papa...
- Thread starter
- #585
Green Utopia
New Member
Thanks! Here's more I hope...
I only chopped a little from one end of the scrog cause it was the only stuff that looked ready. I'd say about an 8th of the scrog, give or take. Wet weight of whats been cut so far was about 175g. I don't have a big scale, so I just jot down numbers as I go then add them up at the end - I occasionally forget to jot one down before putting it into the drying box.
So now for some pics. I hope you'll agree she's worth letting go a little longer.
Here you can see what I've taken so far:
And I guess just consider all the rest ScrOG Porn - if there is a such a thing.
New room is all but 100% functional. Stay tuned...
vspec
New Member
tell me something. Besides the obvious nature of your logical grow height, & something to "thread" your plant though - Whats the main reason for having a grow screen in your opinion
super bud strength, able to hold up a can..lol
super bud strength, able to hold up a can..lol
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- #587
Green Utopia
New Member
That's a GREAT Question and one that merits a real convo. Gonna give a quick answer cause I'm racing the clock right now.
#1 Most important thing in ANY grow if you're trying to optimize is BUD SITES DIRECTLY EXPOSED TO THE LIGHT WITHIN THE OPTIMAL RANGE OF THE LIGHT.
There are lots of techniques to increase the number of sites like FIM, topping, LST, super cropping.
The ScrOG method supplements all those by then putting the most number of sites within the optimal place for the light. This one is excellent as far as density. The next one - the Barney's you can see pics of a few pages back - is both dense horizontally and vertically.
So basically draw a cube under the light of best light. Mine is a 600 so that cube extends about 24" out from the light or about 4' wide by 2' deep. Then cut out the part in the center that's too hot - 6-8" on mine w/light mover. That's why folks "Stadium" the plants.
EDIT: I'm talking about my 600 - not the CFLs in the pic. And what I mean by dense horz and vert is this one - the SD scrog is very dense horz, but its only about 8" deep. The penetration of the 600 should be about 18-24" (I think). So my Barney's scrog has acheived the same horz density, but I'm also trying to max out the penetration of the light above the scrog as well. More to come on this new addition to my way of thinking about scrogs.
So the point of the screen is to create a mesh that's just tight enough to hold the plants EXACTLY where you want them, and bend them at 90 degrees (cause when you bend it 90 it triggers hormones and all the branches below get better - same as super cropping basically).
Someplace in this journal is a pretty good discussion of scrogging.
Also, I am really lovin the next so please come back for pics soon - its a BEAST!! Utopia Haze scrog - mmmmmmmmmm
I'll be happy to talk scrog any time - and I will also fill in on my latest additions to my scrogging philosophy. Which I believe are gonna really make my yield much better.
2nd EDIT: You what would be really friggin cool would be an outdoor scrog. HINT HINT OMM.
Superweed
New Member
Hey PaPa that's a masterwork.
Hope my next gorw i'will try something like this.
Fantastics buds.
Hope my next gorw i'will try something like this.
Fantastics buds.
PaPa that's sneaky 
I could see where it would be a really great thing to do. Ideal even!
OMM is pushing his physical limits as it is. I honestly could not do it. I dream of an of an elevated scrog out there, but I could never build it.
Have you ever noticed when I post pictures, that there are never any ground level shots? If I get down, it's hell to get up. Flopping around on the ground.
Kinda like the old commercial "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up!".
But my heart is with you, PaPa
I could see where it would be a really great thing to do. Ideal even!
OMM is pushing his physical limits as it is. I honestly could not do it. I dream of an of an elevated scrog out there, but I could never build it.
Have you ever noticed when I post pictures, that there are never any ground level shots? If I get down, it's hell to get up. Flopping around on the ground.
Kinda like the old commercial "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up!".
But my heart is with you, PaPa
Sorry Papa I forgot to add Those Buds Look Great!!!!
They really look sooooo good. I'd probably get high from the smell alone.
They really look sooooo good. I'd probably get high from the smell alone.
vspec
New Member
Brace yourself, cause real conversations is what i like best.
An overview on each would great when time permits. I'd be interested in a SWOT type analysis format (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats)
Ok, so if i understand you correctly, you grow to the initial height of the screen, bend and thread at 90deg in the screen, that way you optimise light at the nodes.
Using one of , or a combination of the above methods, will produce different results, however all ultimately leading to thickening & expandability of the entire plant. Which you would thread into the screening as well once its reached the desired height.
Being that buds is the supreme goal, is there a universally accepted placement hight amongst you guys, or does it fall under the variables banner being mainly dependant on the type of system , cavity space allowed for actual growth and/or personal preference?
That makes sense. When you say stadium staggered, are you referring to how you would thread your plants leaving the centre bare, or actual step format at the base blocks.
I look forward to your next instalment anyways. You've got some orsome result that speak for themselves bud.
- Thread starter
- #592
Green Utopia
New Member
Hey PaPa that's a masterwork.
Hope my next gorw i'will try something like this.
Fantastics buds.
Thanks! GL with yours and lemme know so I can check it out.
PaPa that's sneaky
I could see where it would be a really great thing to do. Ideal even!
OMM is pushing his physical limits as it is. I honestly could not do it. I dream of an of an elevated scrog out there, but I could never build it.
Have you ever noticed when I post pictures, that there are never any ground level shots? If I get down, it's hell to get up. Flopping around on the ground.
Kinda like the old commercial "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up!".
But my heart is with you, PaPa
Hehehe. I totally sympathize. Outside I think a string trellis is really prolly better in many ways. Or a tomato trellis. Or a bambu stake. But a scrog would be sick. I've seen guys grow horz with their tomatoes and that was cool as hell.
Thanks much!
I can do a SWOT summary of them - that would be fun and worthwhile.
First, though, "stadiuming" the plants is slang/name for the idea that the light comes out of the bulb in an arc. There is a zone around the bulb that is too bright and hot for the plants, then there is the perfect range, then there is the stuff that gets enough light to stay in flower and not hermie or anything else, but its not enough to really yield good buds. Since the light comes out in an arc and the floor is flat, you stadium the plants. The shape of a stadium exposes the most plants to the best of the light.
SWOT of Techniques to increase yield:
There are so many factors involved in increasing yield that to try to touch on all of them here would be crazy, but - there are some key ones that I've been experimenting with and can talk about. I didn't create or invent or even master any of these.
OK, first - I guess these are what I would call "techniques". The grower has to practice these and they can be done with great degrees of success. As opposed to "methods" of which there are two basic ones - SOG and SCROG. And as opposed to environmental and nutrient based improvements to yield like CO2 or Bloom Enhancers, Etc...
So its important to remember that to really maximize yield - ie shooting for that magical 1 g/w consistently - you can or have to maximize damn near all of the above. And you almost certainly should combine at least some in any grow. Obviously the whole concept of g/w is meaningless outside. But good pruning and farming is still essential outdoors, but not really what I'm talking about here. Outside you just go for big honkin' plants and all the work that goes with it. There's lot's of techniques to improve yield outdoors as well and some overlap, but I'll focus on inside.
So - First - growing with 1k lights vs all others. 1K lights have a great throw. Their sweet spot extends out about 36" from the bulb. That means that if you have a plant that is about 42-60" tall, you can get a huge amount of the plant into the sweet spot vertically. This is what's known as penetration. The penetration on a 600 is about a foot less. So the same plant would yield far less. Essentially you're giving up a foot's worth of branches and bud sites across your entire grow area. That's also why the guys that grow with the 1k lights get bigger colas and outdoor even bigger.
The two main methods of growing for yield with limited vertical space or 600w lights or smaller: SOG and SCROG. You could do either with bigger lights, but you would see diminishing returns I think vs larger stand up plants.
SOG - Sea of Green. This method uses many smaller plants to make up for one larger one. Its actually an extremely efficient way to grow perpetually. Each plant might yield.75 oz and you would harvest 5 a week say. With a 6 week flowering period you would have 4 or 5 groups in at any time after clones. The problem is that you really need to have lots of small plants. And this would break most medical laws that are written to encourage larger harvests from fewer plants. Some of the newer laws are trying to account for the SOG method because its so efficient.
SCROG - Screen of Green - Use a few large plants and grow them horizontally. Use the screen to flatten them and expose the most bud sites possible to the light. The site has to actually see the light to be a prime bud. Again - this method makes much more sense with a 600 vs a 1k.
Now then the techniques. Most if not all of these really should be done in Veg. You can do any or all in flowering, but you won't see much gain and you might actually cost yourself yield. I've found that putting the plants into flower is like making a turn on an icy road. You gotta point the car in the right direction - THEN accelerate. Any extra time that's required for the plant to recouperate should be added to the veg cycle with a few days to spare. The flowering period is hopefully pretty much determined by genetics. you can try to speed it up a little, but usually delays in flowering cost yield and are the results of problems, not intentional stress. But veg is the opposite. I basically think of every extra week in veg as two weeks in flower. You can veg as long as you want and the longer you do - assuming you take care of the plant - the better it is for the plant and yield.
LST - Low Stress Training. This is opposed to FIM or Topping (next two). LST is basically tying the branches apart and pulling them where you want them to go. Again - exposing as much of the plant to light as possible. Plants can turn back to face the light in a matter of hours to a day. Minimal delays to your grow.
Topping - Pinch the top grow site off the plant - Very stressful to the plant. I don't mean that it will kill it or anything. But depending on the species, they can take anywhere from a few days to 10 days to resume full growth speed. Usually I see mine recover in about a week. When they recover - you will have two tops instead of one. You must let them recover completely to see any real benefit. If you top them then throw them into flower, the plant will be fine most likely, but you won't really see any benefit from the topping. Only really works on symmetrical plants. That's important. If you try to top a plant whose branches are not symmetrical, you will still see some additional growth from the lower branches eventually, but the stress from topping will add more time to the grow, and you wont get the two tops.
FIM - Very Stressful to the plant. Comes from a guy in Texas who was trying to pinch off the top and missed. "Fuck, I missed" was coined when he discovered that if you go a smidge higher than topping it you can get 4 tops. We're talking a millimeter 1/16th of an inch type thing. Takes much practice. But if you miss high you will see it and its really no big deal. The leaf will grow looking like it has a bite out. If you miss low, you are just topping. I think you could FIM any top. Not just the symmetrical ones. Takes anywhere from a week to two weeks to really recover and see any benefit.
Suppercropping - Low-Medium Stress. This technique has been around a while in commercial greenhouses, but it looks so traumatic to the plants that folks don't often see or use it as much as it should be. Its based on the idea that when you bend a plant more than 90 degrees on itself, it triggers hormones in the plant that cause the branches below the bend to strengthen and get larger. Usually, supercropping involves squeezing the plant's stem, then bending it over on itself. It basically falls over where you squeezed. It will regrow like the bionic man - faster and stronger. If the plant is flexible enough, you can achieve this same thing by just tying the plant back down to itself. I'll do this with a plant or two to show you. They recover very quickly from supercropping. Delays are usually anywhere from 1 to 3 days to see good results.
Pruning - not stressful at all and they love it! This might be the number one thing I've improved on my grows. Get those fan leaves out of the way. Either bend them where they don't lay flat on another (no mold) or cut them off. Get the light to the bud sites. If you get light to the whole plant - the whole plant will grow. If you get light to the bud sites - they will grow more. Everything the plant does is about those flowers. ITS ENTIRE LIFE CYCLE is devoted to procreation. You can use this. Some kinds of stress will kill or damage your plant with no benefit. But other types of stress make the plant react by essentially thinking,"Oh, Shit! This is a tough place to procreate. I better make bigger buds with more resin to help raise my chances of catching pollen."
That's enough for now. I'm gonna re-read this and find 87 million things I left out. Fire away the questions. Remember there are great journals and threads on this site with lots of detail on all these. And far better examples of some than mine. The only one I feel like I do about as well as can be done is the ScrOG. And my method is different than what I would do if I vegged in the scrog. Gonna be talking much scrog soon with the Barney's starting to get exciting.
Gnite all.
BassBong
Well-Known Member
PaPa that's sneaky
I could see where it would be a really great thing to do. Ideal even!
OMM is pushing his physical limits as it is. I honestly could not do it. I dream of an of an elevated scrog out there, but I could never build it.
Have you ever noticed when I post pictures, that there are never any ground level shots? If I get down, it's hell to get up. Flopping around on the ground.
Kinda like the old commercial "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up!".
But my heart is with you, PaPa
That was kind of what I was referring to as ground cover in your thread OMM.
BassBong
Well-Known Member
Always great info Papa. Great explanation of the whys of lighting and plant palcement.
vspec
New Member
Def filled in some of the void.
Even with reading like crazy, i havn't hit this information yet.
Thank you.
TBC..
Even with reading like crazy, i havn't hit this information yet.
Thank you.
TBC..
astroastro
New Member
Papa G- just an interested electrical engineer watching your system design. Look forward to continued follow ups on the Parallax design. Just a quick note- if you fan is driven by an AC motor the speed cannot be controlled with a pot- you will most likely require an inverter for this. Good luck- astroastro
- Thread starter
- #599
Green Utopia
New Member
Love the SWOT on yeild increasing techniques. Really well put together.
Should be made a sticky IMO. Hint hint Soniq
Thanks!
You have a cool situation OMM I think. I don't really know exactly how much direct light they're getting, or how exposed they are in storms, but aside from that it seems you are on track to have some monster trees. But some of the coolest and best yielding outdoor plants I ever saw were grown in a tomato patch. Flat to the ground. You could walk by the garden and not even know they were there if the wind was right.
Thanks! And thanks for your regular reading of this journal. Its folks like you that keep it a good vibe.
Def filled in some of the void.
Even with reading like crazy, i havn't hit this information yet.
Thank you.
TBC..
When I first started growing again a while back - I spent a lot of time doing reading. Its amazing how you can read the same thing in 15 different places, then all of a sudden one day its like a light bulb. Oooooh - that's what they were saying. Then you realize everyone's been saying the same thing - just takes a while to fill in all those little gaps. Glad I could help.
And speaking of gaps! You have just filled in a MAJOR GAP in the picture for me! I knew there was something like that I was missing! Feel free to "duh!" me on that one.
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- #600
Green Utopia
New Member
Quick update:
No real news. All is well. Getting close - soooo close.
I have had no accidents in all my construction, and yesterday had two minor ones. First I was taking a heavy and hinged wall bracket down and it closed on my left thumb. I think it bruised or maybe even chipped the bone. Not the end of the world, but I can tell you I was testing the pain relief properties of my cannabis - that's for sure.
The second one has a more Zen ending.
Then an hour or two later I was setting up the Ebb and Gro and working in the GREEN light. I had just taken the water pump from one place and put it in the E&G. As I was pushing tubing through I started thinking, man - I drained this pump, how can there still be this much water in it. Then I realized that the water was actually blood from a cut on my finger. Its like a paper cut, but from the plastic lip I think. I didn't even notice it when it happened. But man did it bleed. Two completely soaked paper towels later I was back at it.
Now the Zen part:
Blood and Water look the same in a Green light.
There's something about that I like. I may use it as a sig.
That's it for now. I'll have pics when the lights come on - of the room - not the blood.
P.S. - If you think getting lemon juice in a paper cut stings - try pH balancer in a plastic cut. Wholly fuck!
No real news. All is well. Getting close - soooo close.
I have had no accidents in all my construction, and yesterday had two minor ones. First I was taking a heavy and hinged wall bracket down and it closed on my left thumb. I think it bruised or maybe even chipped the bone. Not the end of the world, but I can tell you I was testing the pain relief properties of my cannabis - that's for sure.
The second one has a more Zen ending.
Then an hour or two later I was setting up the Ebb and Gro and working in the GREEN light. I had just taken the water pump from one place and put it in the E&G. As I was pushing tubing through I started thinking, man - I drained this pump, how can there still be this much water in it. Then I realized that the water was actually blood from a cut on my finger. Its like a paper cut, but from the plastic lip I think. I didn't even notice it when it happened. But man did it bleed. Two completely soaked paper towels later I was back at it.
Now the Zen part:
Blood and Water look the same in a Green light.
There's something about that I like. I may use it as a sig.
That's it for now. I'll have pics when the lights come on - of the room - not the blood.
P.S. - If you think getting lemon juice in a paper cut stings - try pH balancer in a plastic cut. Wholly fuck!