The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

[g-one-three]

Hello @Gee64
I didn’t wanna just jump in cos I see your helping @g-one-three
Sorry if this messes things up
But I read your reply to him about the leaf clawing, I have that going on, how bad is it ?
And could it be from over watering, cos I think I’m doing that
And the yellowing seems more vivid today after the calmag last night, is that normal ?
And my apologies if I’m jumping in here

Lol o don't worry about me, I didn't mean to spam up Gee's thread. He's a solid multitasker.

Do you have a picture of the yellowing?

One thing that lead to an abundance of issues on my last grow was cold soil. My pots when lights off were around 64°F (~18°C) which was too cold.

 

[Gee64]

Hello @Gee64
I didn’t wanna just jump in cos I see your helping @g-one-three
Sorry if this messes things up
But I read your reply to him about the leaf clawing, I have that going on, how bad is it ?
And could it be from over watering, cos I think I’m doing that
And the yellowing seems more vivid today after the calmag last night, is that normal ?
And my apologies if I’m jumping in here

When you calmag it opens your soil up and things speed up so now that the calmag is in it's time to feed them, they are hungry.

You need the soil open 1st to let air in. The food is useless if the microbes can't assimilate it with oxygen.

I noticed your clawing, thats why I asked about synthetics and yes, too wet can cause both clawing and yellowing as initially it gives nitrogen the vast amounts of water that nitrogen requires for assimilation, but longer term it cuts off oxygen and yellowing occurs. It chokes them.

Now it's time to feed and get to a drier place. Top dressing and EWC, with just enough water to wet it in, then let them dry down to a normal level. Then we reevaluate

 

[Kaldean]

Lol o don't worry about me, I didn't mean to spam up Gee's thread. He's a solid multitasker.

Do you have a picture of the yellowing?

One thing that lead to an abundance of issues on my last grow was cold soil. My pots when lights off were around 64°F (~18°C) which was too cold.

Yeah I have pictures mate @g-one-three
Each 2 pics are one plant if that makes sense lol
And I was meant to ask about your heat mats you have for your pots, I definitely have the cold soil issue going on, I do raise em so they ain’t on the ground, but that’s not really helping
Ole and your digital loupe, what one is it mate, iv got all sorts of cameras and loupes but nothings getting me pics like yours, there awesome

Here’s the pics. Some of em are crap lol, and iv got curling and clawing going aswell

 

[Kaldean]

Thanks mate

When you calmag it opens your soil up and things speed up so now that the calmag is in it's time to feed them, they are hungry.

You need the soil open 1st to let air in. The food is useless if the microbes can't assimilate it with oxygen.

I noticed your clawing, thats why I asked about synthetics and yes, too wet can cause both clawing and yellowing as initially it gives nitrogen the vast amounts of water that nitrogen requires for assimilation, but longer term it cuts off oxygen and yellowing occurs. It chokes them.

Now it's time to feed and get to a drier place. Top dressing and EWC, with just enough water to wet it in, then let them dry down to a normal level. Then we reevaluate

Thanks mate, I panicked lol
I’m still waiting on my EWC’s and I thought I had to calmag again ?

And yeah I was just asking @g-one-three about hes heat pads for he’s pots, I could really do with those I think

And @Gee64 , how reliable are those soil ph testers, the 4 in 1 long probe thing , cos iv just tested all pots and there all coming up low ? I haven’t bothered testing the run off but I will do next water, and I should of know cos this happened last year, the tap water ph changed in the winter for some reason, it gets lower, and I’m still using the same amount Lemon juice I started with, how buggered am I

 

[Kaldean]

Thanks mate

Thanks mate, I panicked lol
I’m still waiting on my EWC’s and I thought I had to calmag again ?

And yeah I was just asking @g-one-three about hes heat pads for he’s pots, I could really do with those I think

And @Gee64 , how reliable are those soil ph testers, the 4 in 1 long probe thing , cos iv just tested all pots and there all coming up low ? I haven’t bothered testing the run off but I will do next water, and I should of know cos this happened last year, the tap water ph changed in the winter for some reason, it gets lower, and I’m still using the same amount Lemon juice I started with, how buggered am I

And yes mate @Gee64 ,
I think I’m understanding now what your saying, I thought the calmag was just for the plants to suck up and take what they need, but how you just put it, am I correct in saying it improves the soil aswell and gets everything working better ?

And now I understand why I never liked it lol, always does the same thing with the yellowing, cos iv never realised that it’s preparation for the plant to feed

Now to get this info stuck in me head, that will be a challenge for ya mate

Thank you @Gee64

 

[Gee64]

Yeah I have pictures mate @g-one-three
Each 2 pics are one plant if that makes sense lol
And I was meant to ask about your heat mats you have for your pots, I definitely have the cold soil issue going on, I do raise em so they ain’t on the ground, but that’s not really helping
Ole and your digital loupe, what one is it mate, iv got all sorts of cameras and loupes but nothings getting me pics like yours, there awesome

Here’s the pics. Some of em are crap lol, and iv got curling and clawing going aswell

Are you watering from the bottom, are those swick trays or just saucers to catch runoff?

 

[Gee64]

Lol o don't worry about me, I didn't mean to spam up Gee's thread. He's a solid multitasker.

Do you have a picture of the yellowing?

One thing that lead to an abundance of issues on my last grow was cold soil. My pots when lights off were around 64°F (~18°C) which was too cold.

This is good advice. Living soil requires warmer roots.

 

[Gee64]

Thanks mate

Thanks mate, I panicked lol
I’m still waiting on my EWC’s and I thought I had to calmag again ?

And yeah I was just asking @g-one-three about hes heat pads for he’s pots, I could really do with those I think

Living soil does require warmer roots. If soil temps drop below 72 they really slow down, and 74F is better. In the winter I need heat pads. I use a controller set at 78F and it warms the soil to 74-ish.

And @Gee64 , how reliable are those soil ph testers, the 4 in 1 long probe thing , cos iv just tested all pots and there all coming up low ?

I couldn't say how accurate they are, but I wouldn't trust them. The single probe meters that only tell soil moisture are great tho. I use one all the time. They are cheap too.

I haven’t bothered testing the run off but I will do next water, and I should of know cos this happened last year, the tap water ph changed in the winter for some reason, it gets lower, and I’m still using the same amount Lemon juice I started with, how buggered am I

Tell me about your water and everything you do to it from the time it comes out of the tap until the time you use it.

Do you have a real ph pen or just use the 4 prong probe?

 

[Kaldean]

Are you watering from the bottom, are those swick trays or just saucers to catch runoff?

There just saucers, with an insert to keep them from sitting in the run off water.
And no I don’t water from the bottom, cos I don’t want no run off water sitting in the saucers, with the humidity thing, so what I do is lol, I take them out the tent and in the kitchen to water them, once I get them wet, I sit them on a towel for a minute or 2 to soak up access on the bottom of the fabric pots,

And yeah I’m looking for them heat pads g-one has, I have got a tube heater that I stick in there when it starts getting too cold, maybe I should put that near the pots ?

I do have serious environment issues in the room the tent is in, that’s why I try start the grows early to get them harvested before the cold weather.
I’m trying thou mate lol

And thanks again for all your help mate

 

[Gee64]

And yes mate @Gee64 ,
I think I’m understanding now what your saying, I thought the calmag was just for the plants to suck up and take what they need, but how you just put it, am I correct in saying it improves the soil aswell and gets everything working better ?

And now I understand why I never liked it lol, always does the same thing with the yellowing, cos iv never realised that it’s preparation for the plant to feed

Now to get this info stuck in me head, that will be a challenge for ya mate

Thank you @Gee64

Calmag works as both a feed and a soil conditioner. Thats how it confused people. Plants need calcium, but it also conditions the soil to both set the ph buffer to hold the soil ph stable, and fluffs the soil to allow air and water to flow thru better.

It's an electrolyte so it's charge fluffs soil particles much like static cling does to dust. Thats how it stops crusting. It changes the charge of the crusty particles and they stop clinging together.

When it's in correct amounts and in balance with magnesium it aids uptake of pretty much everything. That's why you always add calcium 1st in liquid feeds, and why it's best to start with calmag on a soil fix. It gets things ready for feeding.

Calcium is really important. That Sohum soil comes with a good amount but it gets mobile when wet and it's very heavy, so every time you water it moves down and eventually out the bottom of the pot, so once that begins you need to add more from above.

EWC is calcium rich, so if you use it as a weekly top dressing right from the start you rarely need calmag.

 

[Gee64]

There just saucers, with an insert to keep them from sitting in the run off water.
And no I don’t water from the bottom, cos I don’t want no run off water sitting in the saucers, with the humidity thing, so what I do is lol, I take them out the tent and in the kitchen to water them, once I get them wet, I sit them on a towel for a minute or 2 to soak up access on the bottom of the fabric pots,

And yeah I’m looking for them heat pads g-one has, I have got a tube heater that I stick in there when it starts getting too cold, maybe I should put that near the pots ?

I do have serious environment issues in the room the tent is in, that’s why I try start the grows early to get them harvested before the cold weather.
I’m trying thou mate lol

And thanks again for all your help mate

I'm not sure what a heat tube is, but if you use a heater make sure it's safe, and a fan blowing gently on it so one pot doesn't get too hot. Heat pads only use about 17 watts each I believe, so they are really cheap to run. A few in a tent will raise soil temps and the overall temps.

How often do you water, and do you water to full runoff?

 

[Kaldean]

Living soil does require warmer roots. If soil temps drop below 72 they really slow down, and 74F is better. In the winter I need heat pads. I use a controller set at 78F and it warms the soil to 74-ish.

I couldn't say how accurate they are, but I wouldn't trust them. The single probe meters that only tell soil moisture arecgreat tho. I use one all the time. They are cheap too.

Tell me about your water and everything you do to it from the time it comes out of the tap until the time you use it.

Do you have a real ph pen or just use the 4 prong probe?

Right @Gee64 , I’m definitely gunna need to get heat on my pots, there definitely too cold

And with the watering, I have 2 ten litre buckets out,
And yeah iv got loads of the yellow ph pens, and the calibration fluid that I do about 20 times each time I test the water, it’s a pain lol,

When I first start my grow, I get a litre of water and add some freshly squeezed lemon juice until I get the water where I want it, with this grow I’m aiming for between 6.2 and just below 6.5.
obviously when I grow with the bottled nutes it’s different,
Anyway, when I know huw much lemon juice per litre, I multiply for the 10 litre bucket, once I add the lemon juice to the bucket, I test again to make sure everything’s where it should be

But here’s where I go wrong. I know that its 2mil of lemon juice to the lite of water,
That was when I first started the grow and I was getting to just below 6.5 and I just carry on with them measurements.
I checked the other day and it’s down to just over 6.1
So I don’t know if it’s dropped even more in the pots.

And yeah as I said earlier, when I get to run off I put them on the towel , I was leaving them in the trays a few watering ago but they started sucking back the run off, so iv stopped doing it like that

 

[Kaldean]

I'm not sure what a heat tube is, but if you use a heater make sure it's safe, and a fan blowing gently on it so one pot doesn't get too hot. Heat pads only use about 17 watts each I believe, so they are really cheap to run. A few in a tent will raise soil temps and the overall temps.

How often do you water, and do you water to full runoff?

Yes mate, them pads look good, just what I need, where do I get them ?

Here’s the heat tube here, my ones 80 watt thou

https://www.screwfix.com/p/dimplex-40w-electric-wall-mounted-tubular-heater/3951F?tc=QA3&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD8IdPyRVjdDCwWFu60se7a46URwu&gclid=CjwKCAjw0aS3BhA3EiwAKaD2ZY2RDy_3VcefhHPFmC0vGMbqae-PwXvsm0DoHzDRtcQ0S6ei6VbQfhoC9dsQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

With the runoff, I water a bit on top of each pot, cos the puddling , it’s not going in like it should cos the crust thing,
Anyway, I water slowly and all over while there still in the saucers, sometimes it just runs straight out clear where it’s gone down the side of the soil and straight out the bottom of the pot, once it’s absorbing properly, I carry on until I start getting the brown water coming out, I lift them out the saucers and put em on the side of the sink, and then move them to a towel for a minute or 2 before I put them back on the saucer inserts

Tbh Gee, I think I’m drenching them too much, I’m putting 10 litres of water in 4 plants, so that’s 2.5 litres each in a 12 litre pot

 

[Kaldean]

Calmag works as both a feed and a soil conditioner. Thats how it confused people. Plants need calcium, but it also conditions the soil to both set the ph buffer to hold the soil ph stable, and fluffs the soil to allow air and water to flow thru better.

It's an electrolyte so it's charge fluffs soil particles much like static cling does to dust. Thats how it stops crusting. It changes the charge of the crusty particles and they stop clinging together.

When it's in correct amounts and in balance with magnesium it aids uptake of pretty much everything. That's why you always add calcium 1st in liquid feeds, and why it's best to start with calmag on a soil fix. It gets things ready for feeding.

Calcium is really important. That Sohum soil comes with a good amount but it gets mobile when wet and it's very heavy, so every time you water it moves down and eventually out the bottom of the pot, so once that begins you need to add more from above.

EWC is calcium rich, so if you use it as a weekly top dressing right from the start you rarely need calmag.

Yeah I didn’t understand this until you first said earlier about their ready for food

And I just learnt a whole lot more too, how the hell do you know all this stuff

I hope you realise I’m on you night and day now

 

[g-one-three]

Yes mate, them pads look good, just what I need, where do I get them ?

Most of the major grow tent suppliers will carry those heat mats. @VIVOSUN is where I got my big one, it's pretty inexpensive for the job it's been doing. I will say that I had to put a thick rubber mat under my tent for the heat mat to work more effectively.

 

[Ramblinrose1965]

Good morning Gee man
Hope you are doing well and not chasing trains today.
Gave the little ladies a squeeze this morning.

Blue sunset sherbert was a 16.5


Purple punch registered a 15

These numbers were taken at the 11th hour. Still could not get my lazy as outta bed at 4am.

Lines looked very similar to the other brix test I showed you the other day.

The bss looks much better. The yellowing of leaves is looking much better. Thank you sir! I love my refractometer.

Have a great day and a big thank you for helping me with my girls.

 

[Gee64]

Good morning Gee man
Hope you are doing well and not chasing trains today.
Gave the little ladies a squeeze this morning.

Blue sunset sherbert was a 16.5


Purple punch registered a 15

These numbers were taken at the 11th hour. Still could not get my lazy as outta bed at 4am.

Lines looked very similar to the other brix test I showed you the other day.

The bss looks much better. The yellowing of leaves is looking much better. Thank you sir! I love my refractometer.

Have a great day and a big thank you for helping me with my girls.

Ok, grab a coffee.

RR those are solid readings. Your soil is working well and also nicely balanced if you are in the mid to upper teens. Well done!

Follow that line, it will easily tell you 2 things. One is the state of the calcium, which is vital, and 2 is the amount of sugars that your plant has created and stored by the end of the day, and sugar in the leaf is a direct reflection of how well you photosynthesized during the day. So 1 is the state of your calcium, and 2 is the state of photosynthesis.

Now here is where it gets a little tricky. To raise photosynthesis, and this applies if your brix is 7 or 17 or 23, think of each day as a lap.

The plant takes in nutrients at the root, moves it up to the leaves, and photosynthesizes it into sugars, which are carbon based energy molecules.

Then the plant uses as much sugar to function as it requires and pushes the remaining sugars down to and out of the roots. That sugar going to the soil is called exudates.

It feeds myco, which is a fungus that lives in the dark so cannot photosynthesize it's own sugars to get carbon, and the soil microbes that require carbon. The fungus in return tells the roots where to squirt those exudates so the microbes will eat the sugary dirt to create the poop that contains what the plant requires that day.

Then that poop (plant food) goes into the root and the next lap starts.

So in most peoples minds photosynthesis is created by light exposure, and they aren't wrong, but the amount of light exposure both in intensity and volume over the day must not be greater than what that lap can create for food into the root, or the plant will suddenly require more food than it can get for the intensity of the light and the forced photosynthesis rate.

So what that translates into in plain english is if you crank up the light to speed up growth, then don't force growth to be faster than what the roots can provide or the plant will rob the missing ingredients it needs to keep up to the high rate of photosynthesis, from it's lower leaves.

By turning light too high, mathematics says you will create a deficiency where there actually isn't one. Make sense? The roots simply can't keep up.

So you need to get the most out of every lap and if your plan is to raise your brix higher then you can turn your light up but only a small amount, let a couple laps go by so myco forces more root growth with exudate placement, so the plant can keep up with photosynthesis from the soil not the leaves. Patience and balance are key here.

At a certain point above 18 brix and usually about 20.5, strains start to hit the wall. Their DNA simply does not allow higher photosynthetic rates.

Some strains are capable of 23's or 24's and my personal highest was a 26. That was the plant more than me as I didn't do anything differently but the plant had higher abilities.

So now you can plainly see the value in a big rootball. If you concentrate on growing your roots to always be bigger and stronger than what the plant needs for the next lap you are golden. Grow the roots and the foliage will just happen. So will brix and plant health.

We all judge plants by how pretty they are, and how big, and we like to show them off, and thats a beautiful thing as we love our plants and should be proud of what we grow, but if you think about it for a sec, we should be showing off our rootballs for bragging rights, because thats where potential lies. So balance is key or you will damage leaves, and damaged leaves can't grow the roots as well as healthy leaves.

You are about to cross the threshold into true high brix, and everything above becomes vital as you are close to the edge and need to be cautious that you don't get greedy and try for too much at once. Do your laps.

Then it comes down to ensuring you have minerals and light available, and the 5 key things for high brix. Calcium, phosphorus, carbon, oxygen, and healthy microbes/fungii.

Calcium is 1st on the list. It ensures tilth which allows oxygen, so it's a two-fer, and it sets your cation platters which supply minerals, so now it's a three-fer, and the balance of those minerals on the cation platters sets soil ph, as the last few platter spots are filled by hydrogen. Thats a large part of how calcium buffers PH in soil.

Phosphorus needs to be in balance with calcium and is vital for creating ATP, which is the energy that powers the laps, and ATP is created thru photosynthesis, so again balance or you run out of energy.

Carbon for photosynthesis comes from atmospheric CO2, not soil carbon. Soil carbon is microbe food not plant food, and what is left behind when the microbes eat it is the husk of the carbon molecule.

That husk is the cation platter that we talked about above that calcium balances both mineral flow and PH on. It's called a humate, or soil humus. Clay particles called colloids also perform the same function as a humate.

Healthy microbes eat more soil carbon creating more humates to supply more cations, so the laps help here too, as you need more cations today than you did yesterday, so it's part of the laps.

Oxygen is what microbes breath just like us, and in soil, water and O2 share the same passage ways and those passages are created by tilth (the fluffiness of the soil), and tilth is created by calcium's charge. Think static cling fluffing dust here.

So calcium builds the hallways that O2 and water share.

Now basic math applies and the more water in the hallways then the less room for air, and every speck of food created must have an O2 attached to it by the microbes in order for the plant to recognize that food as food. It's how plants know what to eat.

So overwatering causes starvation by oxygen deprivation.

If you get Calcium, Phosphorus, Carbon and O2 correctly balanced, you get very healthy microbes because exudates are now bountiful and exudates are pure carbon squirted on the dirt that the plant wants, and healthy microbes can eat more sugar-dirt in a day than unhealthy microbes can.

It's a closed loop and only as strong as the weakest link, so do your laps, maintain balance, and when everything can keep up without deficiency then turn your light up a smidge, watch carefully, create more exudates to build better microbes that can keep up, and repeat.

Eventually you either reach the plant's DNA dictated maximum or you reach deficiency. Or you can be very happy and content in the mid to upper teens and enjoy healthy robust plants that are bug free and grow great weed hasdle free. You don't actually need to push brix higher once you reach 17's and 18's, but heres the good part. If you get to where you are at and can maintain it the soil will take on a life of it's own and continue to raise brix until it naturally finds it's limits for what's in the pot, and all you have to do is maintain. High brix will naturally provide higher brix. The rich get richer.

Now think ahead to your next hrow. Would you want to start it with used soil full of exudates and healthy microbes and dormant myco spores from really healthy myco, or would you rather rebuild from soilvwith low sugars and poor microbes/fungii?

You really do have opportunity to pay it forward to yourself here, and if you do you will hit 20 in veg next round with the rebuilt soil as you have raised the floor at the starting line.

You need soil carbon as it's microbe food and humates, and it absorbs water to hold it for the plant, but not in the hallways, and overwatering is the fastest way to piss off a plant. Now you know why

This whole cycle is referred to as synergy, so if someone says your synergy appears off, this is what they mean.

 

[Gee64]

@Kaldean , hopefully that above post helps answer some of your questions, but it will likely raise some confusion too. It's important to understand how the synergy works, so don't hold back here. If something isn't clear please speak up. No such thing as a dumb question here.

Those of us that understand it have all asked our questions to figure this out and will gladly help you with it too.

Once you get this figured you can grow anything organically. Outdoors nature runs on this but indoors we need to provide it.

Once you get this figured out your plants get healthier so your compost gets healthier, and now the snowball is rolling in your favor and the rich get richer again on a larger scale.

It's why about 75% of the weed I grow by weight goes back to my worm farm. I take the apex buds and the worms get the rest.

All the stuff I demo for you guys is just me creating worm food. I only need 1 crop a year, the rest goes to my veggie patch outside. It's all high brix too. Weed is pretty much the most nutritious compost additive there is.... if it's high brix.

 

[Gee64]

The heat tubes... Those are pretty cool and look very efficient, but they are for raising room temperature not soil temperature.

Heat mats directly contact the pots and raise soil temps.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use the tubes to warm your tent, in fact they look like they are fantastic for that, but you need the direct contact of a heat mat to raise soil temps adequately. And G is right, they do look cold.

Water temps effect soil temps too, so if you warm the tent and store your water in the tent your water won't be a cold shock every time you use it.

Vent it for a day and then put it in the tent to warm if you can. If not, keep it in the warmest part of your house.

Think that warm summer rain that makes the garden outside explode, you want that.

 

[Gee64]

And I never got near a train yesterday unfortunately, I was indoors helping to make processes more efficient. Man o man do railways have a lot of processes that don't talk to each other.

Great people tho, they are all train junkies and love what they do more than most industry, and if you show them a new efficiency they are all over it. One improvement makes so many peoples day better there, so it was fun. I'm going back next week. No train for Gee, no improvements for them.

Usually change is a struggle but over there it's embraced. They my bitches now

And man can they work. 12-16 hour days and they love it. They all are doing their passion, it makes you jealous quickly. They get paid really well and all say the same thing. " I can't believe I get paid to do this!"

Lucky bunch they are.