The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

[budnoob3]

100% agreed on tap water, and if I have to use it I would let sit and skim of the top personally, lucky to have rain and stream water for year round use. As for refractometer, I’d also suggest taking reading between 1 and 3 pm on a sunny clear day for best readings.

 

[Gee64]

100% agreed on tap water, and if I have to use it I would let sit and skim of the top personally, lucky to have rain and stream water for year round use. As for refractometer, I’d also suggest taking reading between 1 and 3 pm on a sunny clear day for best readings.

Speaking of readings, the BK manifolder was only 13 and barely fuzzy, and the 2 RV clones in cubes were 16 and 18. The 16 was mid level fuzzy and the 18 was very fuzzy, so I have a few that could use dolo water. Tomorrow I will give everyone some. Everyone got topdressed today and mulched with SeaSoil.

 

[budnoob3]

Another thing we need to watch out for is over correcting on the phosphorous (P). If we go nuts with it we will end up creating Ca or calcium uptake issues. It’s all a balancing act. It’s no mistake that calmag products are probably the most used because the tendency is to react to the problem by adding inputs rather than seeking balance. There are so many overlapping and similar symptoms that can be attributed to either deficiencies, overages and lack of balance. That’s why my rule of thumb and general advise is to back off of feeding, inputs, water or light as a first step and monitor new growth closely. It reduces the variables and simplifies the troubleshooting process. Always make my adjustments based on what new growth is doing.

 

[Gee64]

Day 8 and more roots.

One has wilted. I'll give it a day and see if it comes back.

2 have roots.

I culled the Durban from the baby LC cup. Miss Sticky in the front is a squat bushy plant. Tomorrow the 2 LC-18's in the back should be ready for their 1st topping. They are all getting manifolded.

The white pistils are less today but lets wait a few more days and see what happens. Hopefully another flush.

Still some new pistils, just not as many.

 

[Gee64]

Another thing we need to watch out for is over correcting on the phosphorous (P). If we go nuts with it we will end up creating Ca or calcium uptake issues. It’s all a balancing act. It’s no mistake that calmag products are probably the most used because the tendency is to react to the problem by adding inputs rather than seeking balance. There are so many overlapping and similar symptoms that can be attributed to either deficiencies, overages and lack of balance. That’s why my rule of thumb and general advise is to back off of feeding, inputs, water or light as a first step and monitor new growth closely. It reduces the variables and simplifies the troubleshooting process. Always make my adjustments based on what new growth is doing.

For sure too much P can cause issues, and I agree, it's all about balance.

I don't actually use a lot of P. I use 3 cups of bone meal and .3 cups of soft rock phosphate per 20 gallons of mix.

The key isn't overloading P into the soil, the key is having it available from day 1 of life.

If you are using clones this is tougher because most root a clone, plant it and veg for 2 weeks, then flip. 2 weeks isn't enough to get high brix and really, you should be into high brix before flip.

Flower is about reproduction, and P is vital to reproductive health. If P is weak you will get fluffy buds. If you want nugs it needs to be adequate.

It's hard to over do P if you aren't using liquid or water soluable forms of it. If it's there in the soil and your calcium line is fuzzy high brix in any half decent soil will occur. That fuzzy calcium line is vital to the equation.

OK so everyone has a trick they keep up their sleeve as their ace in the hole. I'm going to share mine with you all.

When I plant a seed I place a light dusting of soft rock phospate about 3/4 of an inch under the seed, so about an inch under the surface. I use a small amount about the diameter of a dime and about half a dimes thickness. A dusting.

This allows the microbes that came with the seed, the ones that will populate the solo cup, to find P with the main tap root the very 1st day of life.

It's a bonanza by natures standards and makes that sproutling the "lucky" one that outdoors, of the hundreds that sprout, that one "lucky" one that grows way faster and wins out over it's brothers and sisters.

It jacks brix up early if Calcium is correct in the soil.

It's how I get brix up to at least 17 before flip and 20 is common.

With clones you just need to be patient and veg at least 3 weeks but 4 is better, or you will get fluffy buds.

Then theres pruning. If you get a storm or a low pressure system rolling thru brix will drop sinificantly. The plant moves the sugars to the roots in case the storm shears the top off. That's when you want to prune, so when the weather gets better and the sugars come back there is less foliage so brix restores higher.

Depending on your age theres a good chance you remember either your parents and/or your grand parents always had a barometer. They ran their garden by it.

They also said things like, " I need to lime the lawn this week to sweeten up the soil".

Well lime is calcium and they literally were sweetening the soil. Now you know what they meant.

 

[StoneOtter]

For sure too much P can cause issues, and I agree, it's all about balance.

I don't actually use a lot of P. I use 3 cups of bone meal and .3 cups of soft rock phosphate per 20 gallons of mix.

The key isn't overloading P into the soil, the key is having it available from day 1 of life.

If you are using clones this is tougher because most root a clone, plant it and veg for 2 weeks, then flip. 2 weeks isn't enough to get high brix and really, you should be into high brix before flip.

Flower is about reproduction, and P is vital to reproductive health. If P is weak you will get fluffy buds. If you want nugs it needs to be adequate.

It's hard to over do P if you aren't using liquid or water soluable forms of it. If it's there in the soil and your calcium line is fuzzy high brix in any half decent soil will occur. That fuzzy calcium line is vital to the equation.

OK so everyone has a trick they keep up their sleeve as their ace in the hole. I'm going to share mine with you all.

When I plant a seed I place a light dusting of soft rock phospate about 3/4 of an inch under the seed, so about an inch under the surface. I use a small amount about the diameter of a dime and about half a dimes thickness. A dusting.

This allows the microbes that came with the seed, the ones that will populate the solo cup, to find P with the main tap root the very 1st day of life.

It's a bonanza by natures standards and makes that sproutling the "lucky" one that outdoors, of the hundreds that sprout, that one "lucky" one that grows way faster and wins out over it's brothers and sisters.

It jacks brix up early if Calcium is correct in the soil.

It's how I get brix up to at least 17 before flip and 20 is common.

With clones you just need to be patient and veg at least 3 weeks but 4 is better, or you will get fluffy buds.

Then theres pruning. If you get a storm or a low pressure system rolling thru brix will drop sinificantly. The plant moves the sugars to the roots in case the storm shears the top off. That's when you want to prune, so when the weather gets better and the sugars come back there is less foliage so brix restores higher.

Depending on your age theres a good chance you remember either your parents and/or your grand parents always had a barometer. They ran their garden by it.

They also said things like, " I need to lime the lawn this week to sweeten up the soil".

Well lime is calcium and they literally were sweetening the soil. Now you know what they meant.

This must be why when I put an inch of rev soil in the bottom of my solo and fill the rest with starter soil they really thrive! I'll remember the slight pinch of rock Phos next start too.

 

[Gee64]

This must be why when I put an inch of rev soil in the bottom of my solo and fill the rest with starter soil they really thrive! I'll remember the slight pinch of rock Phos next start too.

Thats actually a great idea.

My normal seedling mix is a 50/50 mix of used flower soil and a carbon source, such as coco or ancient forest product, with some myco and some perlite.

Then I do the SRP layer and plant.

No reason why I shouldn't try including some new Rev soil on the bottom. I'm gonna do this next time I plant seeds

 

[Gee64]

Azi mentioned Carbon and the confusion that comes with it. Carbon is the hardest part to wrap your head around so I hope I am dummying this down enough. Grab a coffee and you also may read this more than once. If something isn't jiving for you please speak up.

Carbon is similar to calcium in that it is dual purpose too. Calcium is a nutrient and a soil conditioner, and Carbon too is a nutrient and a soil conditioner.

A rootball dissection is the easiest way to demonstrate, and I don't like to open the carbon can of worms until people understand calcium.

The reason is that it's slightly more complicated, but not really, and calcium is an excellent, easy to understand example of something being both food and conditioner.

Carbon is only slightly more difficult, and only because with calcium, both the nutrient and the conditioner come from the same source, and with carbon the nutrient comes from a different source than the conditioner.

The nutrient portion comes from atmospheric CO2, so you don't really need to know anything about that part, it's just in the air.

The conditioner comes from soil carbon, and if you understand how it works now you have the whole package of how organics works.

Plants eat nutrients to make what we grow them for and roots deliver the nutrients to the plant so it can do that.

Calcium sets the charge in the soil and carbon skeletons that are left behind after microbes create acids to dissolve off the carbon they eat, are what carries this charge, like a battery.

So how does calcium charge carbon, and how does that charged carbon get food to the roots?

Well the easiest way is to tell you with a dissection, and I have 2 rootballs right here.

Before we begin make note of the fact that Carbon also holds 4 times it's weight in water too, so it's a hydrator, but for now don't worry about that part. All that does is help you determine how much is too much in soil. You don't want dry and you don't want soggy. So if you are wondering how much Carbon you should add to a mix, the answer is use enough to hold your soil at the moisture level you want.

OK on to conditioning.

That carbon skeleton has a molecular charge that attracts positive ions. If 80-85 of every 100 it attracts, so 85% is a proper mix of Calcium and Magnesium in ratio, So say 60% calcium and 25% magnesium, the charge differential from what the skeleton can attract and it's amount of attraction power left is now down to 15%.

The stage is set by Calcium and magnesium.

So in that remaining 15% K, Iron, Sodium, aluminum, and a few others in trace amounts all fill in the gaps until the skeletal charge is as colse to even as possible, and hydrogen, the quirky cation that can flip from slightly positive to slightly negative fills in the slightest gaps to achieve 100% saturation. The charge is perfectly neutral in the skeleton but with stuff stuck by static everywhere.

So now a root sucks up a K cation and the skeleton gets some space in it as it's now down to 99.99% fully charged, so when the K gets sucked off some other cation gets sucked on. It flows like water but it's actually static cling.

CEC, Cation Exchange Capacity, is how much flow you can add to your soil to deliver more food.

So how is CEC created?

How are these skeletons of carbon formed?

Like this.

2 rootballs and a breather.

Start knocking off dirt and you see roots.
This is the whole 1.6 gal pot and if you look closely there is a thick mat of roots up top in the pot, a less thick cake of roots in the middle, and a large cake on the bottom. Typical of clones in cloth pots.

Top cake.

Middle cake.

Bottom cake.

All the dirt removed. The dark blobs are bark. Thats where CEC is easy to see develop.

Lots of bark nuggets with roots attached.

Lemme type up part 2 now, I need 10 more photos.

 

[Gee64]

Here's a full rootball again with carbon sources (bark nuggets mostly) attached all over.

You can see roots growing inside the nuggets. They chase the water in there but end up in the skeleton before it becomes a skeleton. The root ends up inside the CEC zone. Now look at all the bark attached in each picture to the bottom. Zoom in.

So this last picture, it was 2 bark nuggets that were hanging on 2 roots side by side. One nugget is pristine but the one above it, I gently crumbled it so you can see how many roots sprout inside it.

It's like a miniature cloth pot of it's own. If you zoom in on the top one that I crumbled open you will see that the main root has side roots.

Those side roots were attached to miniature feather duster roots, microscopic root hairs, that break off when you crumble the nugget.

So the entire inside of the nugget eventually has roots like a wad of cotton batten woven thru the skeleton, each sucking in cations and the soil around the carbon resupplying new ones as all those microhairs suck cations into the plant.

Hydrogen makes sure that the charge is neutralized perfectly to allow perfect flow.

That hydrogen IS your soil PH.

Too much on the skeleton is low PH, and not enough is High PH.

Perfect PH and a cation pops off into a root and another from the soil immediately pops on. Flow.

Of carbon base.... That's the definition of organics. It runs on carbon.

And it also eats Carbon from CO2 in the air.

The carbon cycle ensures both soil and air have enough of each.

 

[Gee64]

So when someone says they use calcium to buffer the PH of a substrate, they are filling in that 85%. Now when cations hop on Hydrogen doesn't have to do much work to hold it together. The soil is almost perfectly balanced without hydrogen. So PH is in the sweet zone.

Without enough calcium filling the majority of the skeleton hydrogen has to do a lot of work. Once it becomes too much work and hydrogen can't maintain flow, your PH is far enough out that it stopped flow. Lockout has been achieved.

And it all runs on carbon. Soil carbon.

 

[budnoob3]

The science of it all is pretty amazing. We’ve got air and water, O and H2O. We’ve got microbes that require O and H to eat up and convert the NPK using primarily O and Ca and P that make all of the other minerals available as well. It’s all making sense now why we do what we do.

 

[Gee64]

So for high brix you need enough

1. Soil carbon to run the CEC as well as enough

2. Calcium, to buffer, enough

3. P for ATP to provide the energy to cause the flow and speed it up, and enough

4.microbes to create the food, and enough

5. O2 to let the microbes both breathe and attach oxygen to everything the plant will ingest.

Now you can photosynthesize at a rate that will allow the plant to create sugars at a really high rate without bottlenecks.

 

[Gee64]

The rest is minerals and organic matter, and compost of any kind supplies that.

 

[budnoob3]

Also one of the reasons I’ve discovered why pulling compost from bottom of pile works so well is that most of the Ca works its way downward over time. Why, the atomic weight of Ca is about 33 which is on the heavier side. Just look up atomic weights for Ca, P, N etc and you will notice Ca is heavier than almost all of the nutrients we rely on. This is also why when we till the garden or plow in a way that brings substrate to the top periodically we end up with a better balance.

 

[Gee64]

The science of it all is pretty amazing. We’ve got air and water, O and H2O. We’ve got microbes that require O and H to eat up and convert the NPK using primarily O and Ca and P that make all of the other minerals available as well. It’s all making sense now why we do what we do.

It's pretty cool stuff.

 

[Gee64]

Also one of the reasons I’ve discovered why pulling compost from bottom of pile works so well is that most of the Ca works its way downward over time. Why, the atomic weight of Ca is about 33 which is on the heavier side. Just look up atomic weights for Ca, P, N etc and you will notice Ca is heavier than almost all of the nutrients we rely on. This is also why when we till the garden or plow in a way that brings substrate to the top periodically we end up with a better balance.

Not only is Ca heavy, it gets really mobile in water, so it will fall out the bottom of a pot quickly.

 

[budnoob3]

That’s one advantage I have, since my current gardens are 5-6 years old and I rotate everything, as in harvest- split all root balls and detritus between worm bins, compost and to mix with new batches of soil brew I’m constantly improving my soil. The one detractor for me I believe is too much sugar so next season I’m going to make the adjustments we already discussed. Just enough molasses in teas to feed microbes, addition of fish ferts, and bills layering. It will all end up in my perpetual thread…

 

[Gee64]

As soon as you get to high brix the plant creates enough sugars for itself. Adding sugars should really only be to boost microlife or if you don't have enough soil carbon. Too often and you may encounter P issues.

 

[Gee64]

Day 12 and all 3 got topped above the 3rd node.

LC-18 Tall pheno. Very delicate side branching at the nodes.

LC-18 Short pheno. bushier side branching.

Miss Sticky. Squat and bushy. She's the shortest of the 3 but the bushiest by far for sidebranching.

I put them all on a heating mat today. They look a smidge cold. Se it for 77F.

 

[Azimuth]

Does raw carbon act different from composted carbon? So, if you used composted bark chips rather than raw, does that affect the inner workings?