The next test is whether your monkeying around ruins your beautiful plant.
The Everything SWICK Club: 2023 And Beyond
- Thread starter Carmen Ray
- Start date
I gave my SIP calmag in each rez fill for the duration. About 60 to 80 ppm in water.
But still living in a cloth pot after up-pot, right? My point to Shed was that the cloth pot itself acts as a bit of a wick, extending upwards the movement of moisture higher than a plastic pot sitting on a wicking bed of perlite. Larger plants seem to handle that better than smaller ones.
Agree with Otter. That looks like a classic calcium deficiency.
That last picture looks like a plant that was overwatered (given the funky twisted leaves) but no longer does with the leaves now showing some lift. Seems to like its new home.
What the gang said about a straight up Ca deficiency. Did you also post this in your grow thread? Heading over to look...
Lol okay fine. I won't top water it!
- Thread starter
- #465
Thank you. I will do the same and hopefully I can avoid further leaf issues.
Ah, now I understand!
Thanks, I'm glad I was able to get hold of Otter in time to treat straight away.
Thank you for weighing in. Let me start out by saying I hope you don't take this personally and don't feel offended. I want to point out that this plant is and has been a freak since birth. I would like anyone claiming overwatering to please look at the plant's history first. Please look at the baby photos.
Why has nobody said to me that my plant is overwatered. They keep saying it looks like it was. If the plant does not currently look overwatered, then chances are it is not.
I respect people's knowledge as more experienced growers than me, but I have got to be defensive about this now because for two years and several grows a few people have repeatedly told me that I overwater my plants and that is the reason for the leaf burn every grow. I have second guessed myself a lot and it has knocked my confidence.
I will take this back to my journal now. I raised it here in SWICK because I wanted an opinion on whether I am in denial and I am overwatering the plants.
Only you can tell if it's actually over watered, we're just looking at pictures!
I don't take it personally at all and certainly no offense taken either. We all grow a very similar plant with most generally the same basic requirements. We mostly grow with one of just a handful of variations like pot mix and nutrients.
We see lots of pictures with troubled plants and the vast majority of them have a similar solution set. Now, that doesn't mean that some individual plant is actually the one with a boron or other very rare deficiency, but for the most part similar issues are consistently resolved with standard suggestions.
But that's all they are. Suggestions. Many of us recognize an overwatered plant by way of personal hands-on experience. So, when several growers point out that it looks like an overwatered plant, that's the first thing I would consider. Bit, doesn't mean that is actually what it is. Yours could be the rare sulfer excess or other off-beat issue. It's your plant, so take the observations and suggestions under advisement and use them or not. It's possible that your issue is in the small percentage of problems that lie elsewhere.
But, as the saying goes, "The race does not always go to the fastest horse, but that's how you bet 'em." Or, in your case, the issue is not always what seems the most obvious, but it probably is.
The same exact setup can lead to over/under watering issues depending on plant size and that's especially true of swicks which move water at a consistent rate regardless of what the plant is using. So, it's possible that it was overwatered when smaller but is able to handle more flow now that it's bigger, or, maybe that the uppot into drier soil made it happier.
The best way to learn it in my experience is to grow two clones side-by-side, use one as the control and try different things with the other.
But again it's your plant. We are just trying to be helpful using our own past experience. I recently had an overwatered SIP. Doesn't mean they don't work or even don't work for me. Just means I have to figure out the nuances of my set-up.
chinchillin
Well-Known Member
Hello. I'll be using this for an outdoor cherry tomato grow. I'm worried about organic matter forming in the perlite but that a baseless worry atm.
I was wondering what else beyond perlite can be used in the reservoir to sit the cloth bag on. The resevoir itself is a bucket cut tall enough allow drainage pipes inside. Have any of you used sand, granulated basalt, clay or rocks? I've looked at some of the pictures here and it looks like some people are using sand but of what type?
I searched sand in this thread and nothing came up so I hope this isn't a redundant question.
I was wondering what else beyond perlite can be used in the reservoir to sit the cloth bag on. The resevoir itself is a bucket cut tall enough allow drainage pipes inside. Have any of you used sand, granulated basalt, clay or rocks? I've looked at some of the pictures here and it looks like some people are using sand but of what type?
I searched sand in this thread and nothing came up so I hope this isn't a redundant question.
@chinchillin down at the bottom of the page there are two videos re sand
SWICK Watering Systems: Letting The Plant Water Itself
I’m looking forward to that comparison of yields too. Under the right conditions I think SWICK holds the upper hand. Well, here it is, gang (you know who you are.. fellow-SWICKERS who've followed attentively on my 1st SWICK journal, embedded right here, in this thread).. TALE OF THE SCALE IS...
www.420magazine.com
chinchillin
Well-Known Member
That was me posting it
It looked like it worked for him. In another one of his videos he checked out a buddy's sand wicking bed and there was some green stuff on the surface. There wasn't an explanation of what it was or why. I looked up what sands to use and they say "coarse sand" I guess that you could use in either a garden or a sandbox. Another website suggested using scaria sand since it's very porous. That's something not available in my country unfortunately.That page in the link is in polish so I hope you guys have a page translator. On that particular page they are using crushed shells shells at 1.2 - 1.8mm size. Next there they show a diagram with certain layers to use in a pot. One layer is keramzyt, which is expanded clay aggregate, and then they use sand with essentially 'biochar'. On another growing forum someone mentioned that they will use just all biochar but there was no follow up to that.
If you see on that allegro page they also have black basalt sand with the granules being .6 - 1.2mm.
sorry about that @chinchillin I've been way to stoned lately, I should have caught that
Rob from CLtv does a review of the AC Infinity self watering fabric pot base.
at 3:53 he gives the 6 months review.
at 3:53 he gives the 6 months review.
ReservoirDog
Well-Known Member
Are you layering soil, perlite or other layerss/ SIPs need to be a homogenous mix and capillary action becomes foiled by layering. Outdoors def is a factor. My five gal are dry at top unless I mulch with plastic or cardboard. My 35-gal outdoor SIPs definitely dry at top, the soil column is almost 3 ft high and it slows as it gets higher and higher, giving the drying factors the upperhand. You are likely experiencing the same. Hardy mulch 'disc' will sort it out. Under there is also a great place to stick some geoflora, worm castings, bennies or local microbes from local soil.The next test is whether your monkeying around ruins your beautiful plant.
Gee64
Well-Known Member
Carmen I just posted the following in Geespot but I think it should be posted here too for all us swickers. Its a long post and its a bit dry but it lets you know what you are up against and somewhat of a formula to adapt swicking. Here it is:
"
OK here is a really long dry read so grab a coffee.
I decided I needed to know how much water perlite can hold... I'm not sure where this leads but I think its good data all can use and very valuable to be aware of....
So pulling up that 2gal pot from the perlite and seeing just how many water roots were under there, and how wet it still was even though the bottom of the tub had been dry and unwatered for a few days, had me somewhat perplexed, as the same was likely happening under my other clone which is much healthier but still on the wet side no matter what I do.
The top 2/3 of the pot are fairly dry but the plant looks and acts overwatered, WTF?
I really don't see how that is possible. So after some thought it came down to "Well, exactly how much water does perlite hold??!!"
so here is what I did....
I took three 1 litre mason jars and numbered them 1,2, and 3.
In Jar #1 I filled it completely full of fairly coarse perlite that naturally rises to the top of a swick tub.
In Jar #2 I filled it with the general mix of coarse and fine perlite from the middle of the tub.
In Jar #3 I filled it with the fines that settle on the bottom of the tub.
All perlite was completely dry and when sealed inside a jar they all register 44%RH.
I have screen lids for mason jars so I filled each jar completely full of water and re-weighed each one to know exactly how much water was in each jar.
After sitting over night to absorb, and a very very small retopping of water to each jar from evaporation/air bubbles I turned each jar upside down and drained it out through the mesh lid and into a catch basin.
I let each jar drip for 15 minutes. After 15 minutes the dripping was completely stopped and I now had perlite at maximum saturation.
I reweighed the jars, did the math, and came up with the following:
1 litre of coarse perlite holds 83g water, or 8.3% water by volume so 83ml per litre of perlite.
1 litre of mixed holds 157g of water so 15.7% by volume or 157ml.
1 litre of fine perlite holds 224g of water so 22.4% by volume, 224ml
The average of all 3 is 155g or 15.5% water by volume, or 155ml. Almost identical to the measured mixed Jar #2.
My swick tub is a 20 litre tub. It was dry on the bottom for about a week now but when I scooped it out litre by litre to measure it out, and it actually was 20 like advertised, I found exactly 1 litre of liquid water in the very bottom of the tub but it didnt appear until I slowly scooped the top off layer by layer.
So in a tub that I thought was dry I actually had on average 20 x 155ml so 3 litres plus the liquid litre so 4 litres. 8.8 pounds of water hiding in a dry tub of perlite that I normally would have poured 2 litres into to top it back up.
1/3 of your soil give or take is perlite too so overall there is a lot of perlite holding a lot of water.
All together my 20 litre perlite tub and 10 gallons of soil have the ability to have aproximately 5 litres of water suspended in perlite when the bottom of the swick goes dry.
Thats 11 pounds of water readily available to the plant in a 10gal, but in a 2 gal on the same bed thats 9.25 pounds of water readily available.
You can see the need to adjust the swick tub size to match the pot size.
This poor 2gal is going to be wet until she drinks her way out of it at which point she will only get sparingly limited bottom drenches in hopes of the plant greatly pruning off the bottom water roots.
I will top water regularly and lightly to help the feeder roots.
Moving forwards I will never add more water to the reservoir than the perlite in my pot and reservoir combined can hold in suspension with capilliary action.
Anything beyond saturation invites oxygen deprivation. Standing water.
Quality soil is said to be 25% water. maybe fines in the soil mix at 22% is the way to go.
Use the coarse in the tub?
Thoughts or idea's anyone?"
"
OK here is a really long dry read so grab a coffee.
I decided I needed to know how much water perlite can hold... I'm not sure where this leads but I think its good data all can use and very valuable to be aware of....
So pulling up that 2gal pot from the perlite and seeing just how many water roots were under there, and how wet it still was even though the bottom of the tub had been dry and unwatered for a few days, had me somewhat perplexed, as the same was likely happening under my other clone which is much healthier but still on the wet side no matter what I do.
The top 2/3 of the pot are fairly dry but the plant looks and acts overwatered, WTF?
I really don't see how that is possible. So after some thought it came down to "Well, exactly how much water does perlite hold??!!"
so here is what I did....
I took three 1 litre mason jars and numbered them 1,2, and 3.
In Jar #1 I filled it completely full of fairly coarse perlite that naturally rises to the top of a swick tub.
In Jar #2 I filled it with the general mix of coarse and fine perlite from the middle of the tub.
In Jar #3 I filled it with the fines that settle on the bottom of the tub.
All perlite was completely dry and when sealed inside a jar they all register 44%RH.
I have screen lids for mason jars so I filled each jar completely full of water and re-weighed each one to know exactly how much water was in each jar.
After sitting over night to absorb, and a very very small retopping of water to each jar from evaporation/air bubbles I turned each jar upside down and drained it out through the mesh lid and into a catch basin.
I let each jar drip for 15 minutes. After 15 minutes the dripping was completely stopped and I now had perlite at maximum saturation.
I reweighed the jars, did the math, and came up with the following:
1 litre of coarse perlite holds 83g water, or 8.3% water by volume so 83ml per litre of perlite.
1 litre of mixed holds 157g of water so 15.7% by volume or 157ml.
1 litre of fine perlite holds 224g of water so 22.4% by volume, 224ml
The average of all 3 is 155g or 15.5% water by volume, or 155ml. Almost identical to the measured mixed Jar #2.
My swick tub is a 20 litre tub. It was dry on the bottom for about a week now but when I scooped it out litre by litre to measure it out, and it actually was 20 like advertised, I found exactly 1 litre of liquid water in the very bottom of the tub but it didnt appear until I slowly scooped the top off layer by layer.
So in a tub that I thought was dry I actually had on average 20 x 155ml so 3 litres plus the liquid litre so 4 litres. 8.8 pounds of water hiding in a dry tub of perlite that I normally would have poured 2 litres into to top it back up.
1/3 of your soil give or take is perlite too so overall there is a lot of perlite holding a lot of water.
All together my 20 litre perlite tub and 10 gallons of soil have the ability to have aproximately 5 litres of water suspended in perlite when the bottom of the swick goes dry.
Thats 11 pounds of water readily available to the plant in a 10gal, but in a 2 gal on the same bed thats 9.25 pounds of water readily available.
You can see the need to adjust the swick tub size to match the pot size.
This poor 2gal is going to be wet until she drinks her way out of it at which point she will only get sparingly limited bottom drenches in hopes of the plant greatly pruning off the bottom water roots.
I will top water regularly and lightly to help the feeder roots.
Moving forwards I will never add more water to the reservoir than the perlite in my pot and reservoir combined can hold in suspension with capilliary action.
Anything beyond saturation invites oxygen deprivation. Standing water.
Quality soil is said to be 25% water. maybe fines in the soil mix at 22% is the way to go.
Use the coarse in the tub?
Thoughts or idea's anyone?"
Great bit of research Gee! I have a few questions that come to mind off the bat and if I missed something I apologize in advance!
Was this experiment related to how much perlite to mix into your soil? It starts off seeming like a perlite SWICK experiment but becomes a "how much water it being held by perlite in the soil" angle.
Is the water retention of perlite the same when surrounded by perlite as it is when it's surrounded by soil? The soil will absorb water from the perlite at a different rate than adjoining perlite will.
Have you established the capillary capability of the various sizes of perlite up through the bottom of a cloth pot? You mention "I will never add more water to the reservoir than the perlite in my pot and reservoir combined can hold in suspension with capilliary action." I'm running soil over perlite (no barrier) in a closed container and the soil never gets wet (testing with a bbq skewer) even after keeping the res filled to the top (minus the air gap) for 12 hours.
for the experiments!
Was this experiment related to how much perlite to mix into your soil? It starts off seeming like a perlite SWICK experiment but becomes a "how much water it being held by perlite in the soil" angle.
Is the water retention of perlite the same when surrounded by perlite as it is when it's surrounded by soil? The soil will absorb water from the perlite at a different rate than adjoining perlite will.
Have you established the capillary capability of the various sizes of perlite up through the bottom of a cloth pot? You mention "I will never add more water to the reservoir than the perlite in my pot and reservoir combined can hold in suspension with capilliary action." I'm running soil over perlite (no barrier) in a closed container and the soil never gets wet (testing with a bbq skewer) even after keeping the res filled to the top (minus the air gap) for 12 hours.
for the experiments!
Gee64
Well-Known Member
Its both. About a third of my 10gal pot is perlite plus 20 litres in the tub so all together I have about 33 litres of perlite holding water when a 10gal is on the swick bed, and 23 litres of perlite holding water when a 2gal pot is on the same bed.
Definitely! I was just curious what perlites abilities were.
If the perlite was completely dry you could add the amount of water it can hold. If its still moist I would add less, as more would start to pool in the tub.
I find this in cloth pots too, it's actually why I started this, I wanted to see what was happening as it had to be a root issue so I pulled it up. It was all water roots. The soil above likely couldn't get any water as the lower water roots were drinking it all. Maybe?
If it's unclear how much water perlite in soil retains vs perlite in perlite, does it change your calculation as to when to water? Isn't perlite's water constantly being transferred to the soil and then taken up by the roots? Would it make sense to also compare the soil's water retention (with and without the perlite mixed in)? That might give you a more accurate measure of what's retaining what in the pot.
Also, if you're top watering as well as filling the res, that must complicate things! Would it make more sense to weigh the pot (or just use the lift method we used for wet-dry growing) to determine when to water?
Also, if you're top watering as well as filling the res, that must complicate things! Would it make more sense to weigh the pot (or just use the lift method we used for wet-dry growing) to determine when to water?
I would never wait for the perlite to get completely dry for fear of starving the water roots of water.
I wonder if there will be any roots other than water roots when I harvest my SWICK plant, what with the soil never getting moist. Seems to me like mine is more of a hempy grow with a big pot of soil on top to keep the plant from tipping over:
Gee64
Well-Known Member
I just wanted to see how much water perlite itself can hold. The soil itself will definitely hold additional water
I would imagine it is
Very true. I was more interested in finding out perlites retention. If your soil is soggy you may want to add large perlite. If your soil is too dry you may want to add finer perlite. It's a battery for the soil to draw from as it needs water. Now I know how big the batteries are, I just need to trickle-charge them full of water at the right rate
I'm organic. I need feeder roots up top so I am going to slowly convert it back to top watering and dry the res out. It's got way to many water roots. The plant looks overwatered all the time and hungry. It needs moisture from the top.
I don't want to pull the rootball out of the perlite and the tub is too big to weigh on my scale.
Me either, I meant if it was totally dry then add the max amount of water (155ml/litre of perlite on average) as it will absorb it all. If its partially wet and you add the max amount you will end up with pooling in the res. That means less air exchange. Less air exchange=overwatering in organics. The water to air ratio gets to high. The roots will start to sit in water.
Thats pretty much how I see it too.
Pondwater
Well-Known Member
Are ya saying that the sip fed too much water only and not enough food from soil ? Isn’t the water meant to wick up making all the soil wet ?
I also use worms they till the top and bring moisture to the surface more too they cycle the nutes and mix em wel in it’s awesome there like my workers delivering food
I do water too still atm though I hope to sip only next round whennoff these fabric pots
I guess I'm lucky to be using synthetics for this plant since I don't think there are any active roots in the soil itself given how dry it is. If this were an organic grow it would be living on plain water in the res!
You mean for the next plant?
I wonder how long that transition will take, from water roots to soil roots?