SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[KingJoe83]

Cannabis for diabetes control

I still haven't found the primary physician reference I'm seeking on this, but I'm beginning to think the regimen is 50 mg of THCv every 8 hours. That's a cannabinoid that can be difficult to find in quantity. Hmmm.... I'll keep looking.

At one point I thought it was 50 mg of THC, but few could tolerate that dose in a regular basis. 200 mg a day of THC is more than most would be comfortable with. I wonder if she meant THCa? That would make sense too. Ahhh, the mysteries we get to search through.

Now, the challenge is growing a plant high in THCv.

Clinical Trial: THCv lowers blood sugar levels in type-2 diabetics

Efficacy and Safety of Cannabidiol and Tetrahydrocannabivarin on Glycemic and Lipid Parameters in Patients With Type 2 Diabetes: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Parallel Group Pilot Study.
Jadoon KA, et al. Diabetes Care. 2016.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: Cannabidiol (CBD) and Δ(9)-tetrahydrocannabivarin (THCV) are nonpsychoactive phytocannabinoids affecting lipid and glucose metabolism in animal models. This study set out to examine the effects of these compounds in patients with type 2 diabetes.

RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS: In this randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study, 62 subjects with noninsulin-treated type 2 diabetes were randomized to five treatment arms: CBD (100 mg twice daily), THCV (5 mg twice daily), 1:1 ratio of CBD and THCV (5 mg/5 mg, twice daily), 20:1 ratio of CBD and THCV (100 mg/5 mg, twice daily), or matched placebo for 13 weeks. The primary end point was a change in HDL-cholesterol concentrations from baseline. Secondary/tertiary end points included changes in glycemic control, lipid profile, insulin sensitivity, body weight, liver triglyceride content, adipose tissue distribution, appetite, markers of inflammation, markers of vascular function, gut hormones, circulating endocannabinoids, and adipokine concentrations. Safety and tolerability end points were also evaluated.

RESULTS: Compared with placebo, THCV significantly decreased fasting plasma glucose (estimated treatment difference [ETD] = -1.2 mmol/L; P < 0.05) and improved pancreatic β-cell function (HOMA2 β-cell function [ETD = -44.51 points; P < 0.01]), adiponectin (ETD = -5.9 × 10(6) pg/mL; P < 0.01), and apolipoprotein A (ETD = -6.02 μmol/L; P < 0.05), although plasma HDL was unaffected. Compared with baseline (but not placebo), CBD decreased resistin (-898 pg/ml; P < 0.05) and increased glucose-dependent insulinotropic peptide (21.9 pg/ml; P < 0.05). None of the combination treatments had a significant impact on end points. CBD and THCV were well tolerated.

CONCLUSIONS: THCV could represent a new therapeutic agent in glycemic control in subjects with type 2 diabetes.

. 2016 by the American Diabetes Association.

I have diabetes I really want to learn how to make oil maybe I can try it with some of my outdoor fall harvest if all goes well

 

[SweetSue]

Watching a video I'd missed somehow. The speaker is Michael Backus, and he always gets me going, so I'll probably be dropping all kinds of stuff while I look for that reference.

A couple of points that keep pushing to the front of the pack in my somewhat overcrowded brain

The ECS is the regulator for every system in your body. Let me say that again.

The endoncannabinoid system is the regulator for every system in your body. The receptors for the ECS and the receptors for the limbic system sit right next to each other in the area of the hippocampus. This is where your brain determines who you are, expressed as your individual personality, and all the resulting bodily responses to that personality, be they health or disease states.

When the ECS is out of balance it can't keep the limbic system in balance. When you have fear it can't counter it, and before you know it you have a raging case of IBS. When they work in smooth partnership fear is quickly replaced with deliberation that looks around for the correct solution. I've watched this happen with my own daughter in the past month. Situations that held her hostage to fear are now seen as mild irritants, and when confronted with a serious situation she almost instantly turned to look for the solution, dropping the anxiety like a hot potato.

They tell us that when you deliver mega-doses of phytocannabinoids the system takes receptors offline. It feels overwhelmed, and this is suggested as the means that it deals with the crowd. I say "suggested" because I don't know how they came to this conclusion, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't through intense human trials and imaging. That wrinkle about the scheduling of cannabis as the most dangerous drug known to man would have held back that research. One of my thoughts is I doubt they've watched this happen in a body riddled with cancer. Such a body would have a crying need for more and more cannabinoids, or am I out in left field with that assumption?

So I'm thinking, if the limbic system and the ECS work in concert to create you as a personality, then this suggests to me that you can control the action of the ECS by the thoughts you choose, which will create the emotional response that creates the chemical cascades that create change at a cellular level.

It occurs to me that this explains seemingly miraculous spontaneous healing. It also occurs to me that there's real reason to tell your body that it knows what to do with the medicine you're taking. You could tell the body to light up the cannabinoid receptors so the cannabinoids you're adding to the mix know precisely where to go, and I believe your body will do that, providing you have enough belief. So this information about pulling receptors offline may be as reliable as the "lock and key" explaination that was "known science" we'd accepted for over 40 years, only to discover how wrong we were.

Alright... my daughter absconded me for dinner (pizza, her place) and now I'm ready to go back to Michael. I'll be back.

 

[SweetSue]

Significant point that can't be lost in the flow:

In recent years there was a study done in San Diego on cannabis and pain. The study revealed
- take too low a dose of cannabis, and you get no relief
- take an optimal dose - typically between 10-15 mg of THC - and you get significant relief
- take a higher than optimal dose and you get either no relief or increased pain

There's an apparent threshold for pain management that it would do well to identify and respect.

What does this suggest for those of us living in pain but fond of euphoria as a lifestyle?

This study created pain with a topical application, and then treated that pain. This is not the same type of pain signals felt by a patient with intractable or debilitating pain, is it? So, one could surmise that this may or may not apply for a patient dealing with serious pain issues.

I keep hearing all these limiting statements about a system whose function is creation, one I believe has unlimited, though untapped power to heal the human system. I keep hearing limiting statements about cannabis, a plant that continually amazes us with its adaptive capabilities. Each patient case is individual, and each patient will respond differently to cannabis as a medicine. Beyond broad generalizations, there's so little we understand about what's really going on between the ECS and cannabis we're still shooting in the dark with a plant that won't kill or maim while we experiment.

The next ten years are going to set us back on our heels.

 

[SweetSue]

Cannabis for diabetes control

I still haven't found the primary physician reference I'm seeking on this, but I'm beginning to think the regimen is 50 mg of THCv every 8 hours. That's a cannabinoid that can be difficult to find in quantity. Hmmm.... I'll keep looking.

At one point I thought it was 50 mg of THC, but few could tolerate that dose in a regular basis. 200 mg a day of THC is more than most would be comfortable with. I wonder if she meant THCa? That would make sense too. Ahhh, the mysteries we get to search through.

Now, the challenge is growing a plant high in THCv.

Clinical Trial: THCv lowers blood sugar levels in type-2 diabetics

Efficacy and Safety of Cannabidiol and Tetrahydrocannabivarin on Glycemic and Lipid Parameters in Patients With Type 2 Diabetes: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Parallel Group Pilot Study.
Jadoon KA, et al. Diabetes Care. 2016.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: Cannabidiol (CBD) and Δ(9)-tetrahydrocannabivarin (THCV) are nonpsychoactive phytocannabinoids affecting lipid and glucose metabolism in animal models. This study set out to examine the effects of these compounds in patients with type 2 diabetes.

RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS: In this randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study, 62 subjects with noninsulin-treated type 2 diabetes were randomized to five treatment arms: CBD (100 mg twice daily), THCV (5 mg twice daily), 1:1 ratio of CBD and THCV (5 mg/5 mg, twice daily), 20:1 ratio of CBD and THCV (100 mg/5 mg, twice daily), or matched placebo for 13 weeks. The primary end point was a change in HDL-cholesterol concentrations from baseline. Secondary/tertiary end points included changes in glycemic control, lipid profile, insulin sensitivity, body weight, liver triglyceride content, adipose tissue distribution, appetite, markers of inflammation, markers of vascular function, gut hormones, circulating endocannabinoids, and adipokine concentrations. Safety and tolerability end points were also evaluated.

RESULTS: Compared with placebo, THCV significantly decreased fasting plasma glucose (estimated treatment difference [ETD] = -1.2 mmol/L; P < 0.05) and improved pancreatic β-cell function (HOMA2 β-cell function [ETD = -44.51 points; P < 0.01]), adiponectin (ETD = -5.9 × 10(6) pg/mL; P < 0.01), and apolipoprotein A (ETD = -6.02 μmol/L; P < 0.05), although plasma HDL was unaffected. Compared with baseline (but not placebo), CBD decreased resistin (-898 pg/ml; P < 0.05) and increased glucose-dependent insulinotropic peptide (21.9 pg/ml; P < 0.05). None of the combination treatments had a significant impact on end points. CBD and THCV were well tolerated.

CONCLUSIONS: THCV could represent a new therapeutic agent in glycemic control in subjects with type 2 diabetes.

© 2016 by the American Diabetes Association.

Still searching, but I did find a reference in my notes of Mara Gordon saying that THCv was the go-to for diabetes and other challenges with the endocrine system.

At a dose of 50mg of THCv every 8 hours you're looking at CCO made into capsules or biobombs, in which case you could cut the THCv dose, in all likelihood. I find myself wondering if an FHO of Durbin Poison might do the trick?

 

[SweetSue]

The blissful life of a happy oiler....

Another week's capsules done.....

....and brownie oil in the making.

I get crazy excited to see active decarboxylation happening.

 

[Amy Gardner]

Hi Sue, and all.. I want to clarify some things about the oil making process. Time spent reading over at the 'Holy Grail' thread has left me a bit confuzzled.

Ok the 36hr in the jar: I used 1cup EVO, 6g dry bud (strain unknown, I purchased it - it's nice tho, vapes very lavender smells lemony), 1tbsp liquid sunflower lecithin. I forgot to chop up the herb this time. Remembered halfway through so chopped it up ok in the jar - hope it's ok). So to my understanding this decarbs and infuses. There was some mention over there of not putting the lecithin in during the oven process but waiting till later. Is there a known difference (Sue - have you noticed a difference?). I've enjoyed watching the bubbling this time too! When I shook the jar it would look like honeycomb for a while. It's a really dark golden colour. .

Then, the FHO. I'm planning that most of my first indoor harvest is going to be processed this way. There seems to be an emerging consensus, however, that this is not an ideal decarbing process - or if it is to be one, then many more hours on the stove are needed. I'm weeks away from harvest but I need to start making sure I have all the relevant things organised (it takes me a long time to do things) so I'm wanting to clarify now.

Thanks for any input here!

.

 

[SweetSue]

Hi Sue, and all.. I want to clarify some things about the oil making process. Time spent reading over at the 'Holy Grail' thread has left me a bit confuzzled.

Ok the 36hr in the jar: I used 1cup EVO, 6g dry bud (strain unknown, I purchased it - it's nice tho, vapes very lavender smells lemony), 1tbsp liquid sunflower lecithin. I forgot to chop up the herb this time. Remembered halfway through so chopped it up ok in the jar - hope it's ok). So to my understanding this decarbs and infuses. There was some mention over there of not putting the lecithin in during the oven process but waiting till later. Is there a known difference (Sue - have you noticed a difference?). I've enjoyed watching the bubbling this time too! When I shook the jar it would look like honeycomb for a while. It's a really dark golden colour. .

Then, the FHO. I'm planning that most of my first indoor harvest is going to be processed this way. There seems to be an emerging consensus, however, that this is not an ideal decarbing process - or if it is to be one, then many more hours on the stove are needed. I'm weeks away from harvest but I need to start making sure I have all the relevant things organised (it takes me a long time to do things) so I'm wanting to clarify now.

Thanks for any input here!

.

When I make the 36-hour oil I add the lecithin in the beginning. It's all sealed up, and I want to keep it sealed until I'm ready to use it in brownies, to keep everything from floating away.

When I make FHO I hold off on the lecithin until I've strained the oil, and then I refrigerate for at least 24 hours to give the lecithin time to do its work.

I can't see how there can be a partial decarb with the FHO because you watch it decarb, and when there's no more to decarb you have no more bubbles rising when you stir. How can that result in an incomplete decarb?

The displeasure I've heard rumbling about with FHO appears to be in the loss of oil bound up in the mash, but the mash can be used in any number of ways to take advantage of the medicinal value, so in my world you lose nothing.

Drying in the dehydrator or low and slo offers an interesting alternative to FHO. Use the buds to make a 36-hr oil. In theory it should give you an oil comparable to FHO, particularly since you're doing the whole process in a sealed jar. My advice would be to dry using one of these methods and try a 36-hr oil. Save yourself the hours hovering over the stove. I really believe the oils would be so close in medicinal value that you wouldn't notice.

I'll be making my first batch like this next week. I used the last of my CBD Critical Cure oil for the capsules I put together yesterday, and they'll only last a week. More oil will be needed then. I like the idea of making it in smaller batches, as needed. A half cup at a time lasts us two weeks.

 

[alltatup]

DARK LEAFY GREENS 3 WEEKS INTO FLOWER GOT ME HIGH AS HECK ALL DAY


I've been wanting to eat cannabis greens for their nutritional value, and I finally did Friday morning. I had a relatively small amount of trim--nice new leaves and budlets--which I cooked up. I put the greens in a pot of shallow water, and brought the water to a simmer, and cooked them for 5 minutes until they were wilted. Then I added a little olive oil to make them more palatable.

I had no intention of getting high, because I had to go to work. I really thought that I was just eating some early morning greens.

Within 45 minutes, I was getting extremely high, and remained so all day. The high relieved all my aches and pains and it popped open my chakras as well; it was pretty amazing. My mood was serene and upbeat. Another plus: since then, I've needed very little weed to get high; I think I'm still feeling Friday's effects.

These are the strains I trimmed:
C99 G13 Labs
Chemdawg HSO
Iced Grapefruit Female Sds
Lithium OG Kush Nirvana
Black Domina Sensi Sds
WW DP
Cannatonic Resin Sds
Diamond Cookies Moxie

These leaves were full of psychoactive and pain-relieving components. I conclude that I decarboxylated them, and the effect was very fast on an empty stomach.

This experience destroys all of my former understanding about these psychoactive compounds and how they work. Clearly one doesn't need sticky, milky trichomes to experience the medicinal and psychoactive effects of cannabis. Was it cooking and consuming the whole food? I haven't read anything anywhere about this phenomenon; everything I read about cooking with cannabis pertains to dried and cured weed.

Update: I took some fresh trim to friends today and they ate them, cooked in the same manner. She said they took away the awful menstrual cramps she'd been having for two days; he said he felt great and totally loosened up. When I left they were very happy and loving their Sunday.

Ok, so we know that it wasn't all in my head. There is something extraordinary about fresh cannabis greens. It makes me think that having a "mother plant" takes on a whole new meaning, although these plants began putting out the first signs of buds and wonderful aromas this past week. What did that do to the mix? I will have to experiment on next grow with leaves during vegitation.

 

[SoInd420]

After reading a few paragraphs I formed a fast hypothesis. Perfect both kinds of oil; THC and CBD then infuse them together as needed 2:1 1:2 etc.

 

[SweetSue]

After reading a few paragraphs I formed a fast hypothesis. Perfect both kinds of oil; THC and CBD then infuse them together as needed 2:1 1:2 etc.

Great idea, and a method chosen by many. I'm told by those who should know that you get a more dynamic oil if you brew them together rather than add to each other later. We don't understand why this is so, but apparently the entourage effect is enhanced with more than one plant, or a variety of chemovars. Some of the most enticing oils out there are made with up to ten different chemovars, all processed into one oil. God, I'd love to get my hands on some of that.

Welcome SoInd. Are you enjoying the read? Remember it's a brainstorming room, and we revise as we go. Always check in real time to assure yourself that what you read hasn't been updated.

Have you a particular interest in cannabis oils?

 

[SweetSue]

DARK LEAFY GREENS 3 WEEKS INTO FLOWER GOT ME HIGH AS HECK ALL DAY


I've been wanting to eat cannabis greens for their nutritional value, and I finally did Friday morning. I had a relatively small amount of trim--nice new leaves and budlets--which I cooked up. I put the greens in a pot of shallow water, and brought the water to a simmer, and cooked them for 5 minutes until they were wilted. Then I added a little olive oil to make them more palatable.

I had no intention of getting high, because I had to go to work. I really thought that I was just eating some early morning greens.

Within 45 minutes, I was getting extremely high, and remained so all day. The high relieved all my aches and pains and it popped open my chakras as well; it was pretty amazing. My mood was serene and upbeat. Another plus: since then, I've needed very little weed to get high; I think I'm still feeling Friday's effects.

These are the strains I trimmed:
C99 G13 Labs
Chemdawg HSO
Iced Grapefruit Female Sds
Lithium OG Kush Nirvana
Black Domina Sensi Sds
WW DP
Cannatonic Resin Sds
Diamond Cookies Moxie

These leaves were full of psychoactive and pain-relieving components. I conclude that I decarboxylated them, and the effect was very fast on an empty stomach.

This experience destroys all of my former understanding about these psychoactive compounds and how they work. Clearly one doesn't need sticky, milky trichomes to experience the medicinal and psychoactive effects of cannabis. Was it cooking and consuming the whole food? I haven't read anything anywhere about this phenomenon; everything I read about cooking with cannabis pertains to dried and cured weed.

Update: I took some fresh trim to friends today and they ate them, cooked in the same manner. She said they took away the awful menstrual cramps she'd been having for two days; he said he felt great and totally loosened up. When I left they were very happy and loving their Sunday.

Ok, so we know that it wasn't all in my head. There is something extraordinary about fresh cannabis greens. It makes me think that having a "mother plant" takes on a whole new meaning, although these plants began putting out the first signs of buds and wonderful aromas this past week. What did that do to the mix? I will have to experiment on next grow with leaves during vegitation.

I have a bag of frozen trim from a variety of plants, trim that includes popcorn. I also have bags and bags of frozen leaves, and you just made me realize that I could sauté them up like frozen spinach. I knew there was a reason I was keeping those leaves. I'll give some a try in the morning, before I take anything else.

I agree about the mother, and I'm thinking which plant would be best for that chore? Do you think they have to be in flower to be this effective? I'd kinda think so, since flowers have many more trichomes. That means the trim many of us give at around day 21 or so of flower can become a side dish. LOL!

I just read back, and you used new leaves, the new shoots - the ones around the tiny flowers we clear off the lower limbs when we flower? How much would you say you cooked up that first time?

 

[SoInd420]

Great idea, and a method chosen by many. I'm told by those who should know that you get a more dynamic oil if you brew them together rather than add to each other later. We don't understand why this is so, but apparently the entourage effect is enhanced with more than one plant, or a variety of chemovars. Some of the most enticing oils out there are made with up to ten different chemovars, all processed into one oil. God, I'd love to get my hands on some of that.

Welcome SoInd. Are you enjoying the read? Remember it's a brainstorming room, and we revise as we go. Always check in real time to assure yourself that what you read hasn't been updated.

Have you a particular interest in cannabis oils?

I'm a total newbie. I like the oil cartridges for the vape pens, and I like baking with homemade cannabutter. That's the extent of it. I'm currently in my first grow. 3xCandy Cane Auto 2xNorthern Lights Auto. Day 15 from seed.

 

[AKgramma]

DARK LEAFY GREENS 3 WEEKS INTO FLOWER GOT ME HIGH AS HECK ALL DAY


I've been wanting to eat cannabis greens for their nutritional value, and I finally did Friday morning. I had a relatively small amount of trim--nice new leaves and budlets--which I cooked up. I put the greens in a pot of shallow water, and brought the water to a simmer, and cooked them for 5 minutes until they were wilted. Then I added a little olive oil to make them more palatable.

I had no intention of getting high, because I had to go to work. I really thought that I was just eating some early morning greens.

Within 45 minutes, I was getting extremely high, and remained so all day. The high relieved all my aches and pains and it popped open my chakras as well; it was pretty amazing. My mood was serene and upbeat. Another plus: since then, I've needed very little weed to get high; I think I'm still feeling Friday's effects.

These are the strains I trimmed:
C99 G13 Labs
Chemdawg HSO
Iced Grapefruit Female Sds
Lithium OG Kush Nirvana
Black Domina Sensi Sds
WW DP
Cannatonic Resin Sds
Diamond Cookies Moxie

These leaves were full of psychoactive and pain-relieving components. I conclude that I decarboxylated them, and the effect was very fast on an empty stomach.

This experience destroys all of my former understanding about these psychoactive compounds and how they work. Clearly one doesn't need sticky, milky trichomes to experience the medicinal and psychoactive effects of cannabis. Was it cooking and consuming the whole food? I haven't read anything anywhere about this phenomenon; everything I read about cooking with cannabis pertains to dried and cured weed.

Update: I took some fresh trim to friends today and they ate them, cooked in the same manner. She said they took away the awful menstrual cramps she'd been having for two days; he said he felt great and totally loosened up. When I left they were very happy and loving their Sunday.

Ok, so we know that it wasn't all in my head. There is something extraordinary about fresh cannabis greens. It makes me think that having a "mother plant" takes on a whole new meaning, although these plants began putting out the first signs of buds and wonderful aromas this past week. What did that do to the mix? I will have to experiment on next grow with leaves during vegitation.

I have been using mixed, dried plant parts for cooking for some time now. 1/4 cup to 1 lb ground meat with any other veggies I want to add will couch lock me for 5 hours. So during the day, I take one or two of my fresh-leaf/coconut oil infused capsules to keep a minimal level of pain killers in my body without getting high. All a matter of how much herb (fresh or cured) to add to the cooking pot.

Oh, and I decarb naturally, which means my herb is well-cured before use.

 

[SweetSue]

I'm a total newbie. I like the oil cartridges for the vape pens, and I like baking with homemade cannabutter. That's the extent of it. I'm currently in my first grow. 3xCandy Cane Auto 2xNorthern Lights Auto. Day 15 from seed.

Is that Crop King's Candy Cane? Might not be an auto. My first three turned out to be a photo. Now I'm running clones. This is my latest today at day 80.

She stands 47" at her tallest point. Buds are sweet smelling, like candy, and frosty as hell.

Just wanted to give you a heads up on the potential instability of the seeds. I got mine over a year ago, so they may have worked that glitch out. It's a delightful enough chemovar that it's in regular rotation. I always have one in veg waiting on the mother to finish. I think you'll like it. Northern Lights was the very first plant I attempted to grow. You'll enjoy that one too.

I showed up here a total newbie. You don't stay in that mode for long in this neighborhood.

 

[SoInd420]

I bought them in early September 2017. Your plants look beautiful!!

 

[SweetSue]

I bought them in early September 2017. Your plants look beautiful!!

Thank you. They are lovely plants. Interestingly, every one I've grown has turned out looking different from the rest. I get that alot in my garden, so you'd think I'd be used to it. Lol!

I'd think if they hadn't worked out the kinks in Candy Cane they wouldn't still be marketing them. You should be good. They won't look like the photoflowering ones, but the rest should be a close match. The snowball buds will delight you. She looks like she belongs at the North Pole.

 

[SoInd420]

I'm looking forward to seeing them develop.

 

[SweetSue]

I'm looking forward to seeing them develop.

Are you planning a journal? If not, feel free to drop the occasional picture on my perpetual journal or here, if the spirit moves you. I'd love to see what the auto looks like in comparison. Something in the real world, not the breeder's pictures.

 

[SoInd420]

I thought I had one going but I think it's just a post on my timeline.

 

[alltatup]

I have a bag of frozen trim from a variety of plants, trim that includes popcorn. I also have bags and bags of frozen leaves, and you just made me realize that I could sauté them up like frozen spinach. I knew there was a reason I was keeping those leaves. I'll give some a try in the morning, before I take anything else.

I agree about the mother, and I'm thinking which plant would be best for that chore? Do you think they have to be in flower to be this effective? I'd kinda think so, since flowers have many more trichomes. That means the trim many of us give at around day 21 or so of flower can become a side dish. LOL!

I just read back, and you used new leaves, the new shoots - the ones around the tiny flowers we clear off the lower limbs when we flower? How much would you say you cooked up that first time?

I would say that I had about 15-18 leaves (overlapping or blocking bud sites) and maybe 8-10 budlets of varying sizes from very small to ones with 1" leaves on them.

And now I'm thinking that maybe the plant has to be in flower, because it was the aromas that enticed me! Just think of all the medicine that can be made with all of those leaves, freshly bursting with energy!

"Sauteéd like spinach" they are pretty intense in flavor by themselves, slightly more palatable without stems. But on an empty stomach: WOW!!!!!