SIP Club - Getting Hydro/Coco Results In A Soil Based Medium

[chinchillin]

I have and it smelled real foul the next day. I rinsed it all out, never again.


Like stated above not a good idea from my experience.
I feed my teas from the top but no more than a half gal so it doesn't run into the reservoir.
I do most of my feeding when I amend the soil and rarely top dress, just a tea or two.

After 8 days of droughting I fed this afternoon and none of the 1/2g of tea ran out and it was pretty dry soil.
I also filled the wick res with a gal of plain water and I just checked and the res is bone dry.

About your aeration on the sides, that's the swicks advantage, sides and bottom get air.

modified sip with aeration from a few grows back

EP mod 7.jpg

• Hash Hound
• Jan 2, 2023

Thank you for the heads up.
Nice mod on that bucket. Did you notice any difference?

 

[Stunger]

I think I’ll need to beachcomber some myself. My red wiggles devour the stuff.

Hey RD, how do you give the kelp to your worms? I read of someone who said when he gave too much of a percentage of kelp to his worms they were not happy. I mostly give my worms banana and fruit skins, a handful of lawn clippings when I've mowed the lawn, and some dead leaves if Autumn etc etc. I'm assuming you're blending the kelp up to give them, do you give them a 'feed' that is 100% kelp, or do you give kelp as part of a mix with other food sources for them? Thanks.

 

[Azimuth]

I can't stress it enough Azi, be slow and gentle. As the soil releases its dumping nutes. You may see some burnt tips.

You seem to be suggesting a daily misting might be too much. If so, what is a better application schedule and would a less periodic soak be better than more frequent misting? Or, if misting is OK, what schedule might be best?

 

[Azimuth]

Whole thing, chopped into pieces. I put it in a food processor, cause I can. Chopped is fine.

But it's pretty tough stuff to chop, yes?

 

[Gee64]

You seem to be suggesting a daily misting might be too much. If so, what is a better application schedule and would a less periodic soak be better than more frequent misting? Or, if misting is OK, what schedule might be best?

I would give it a couple days and see if it needs more. It really depends on the ppm of it.
Treat it like Cal-Mag, but most calmags are 3.5:1 ish cal:mag so if your regular mix of calmag is 100 ppm thats about 77ppm of calcium.

Mag also lowers cals strength as it needs part of cals charge to neutralize it so for pure calcium its likely about half the ppm of the cal in calmag is needed so if calmag mixes to 100ppm, or whatever the ppm is on how you mix it, go with half that ppm and apply it in the quantity you regularly do.

I mixed pure cal at 200 ppm on my experiment thinking that was pretty low, sprayed a pretty good dose on a 1.66 gal pots crusty surface.

It completely turned to dust and fried the plant pretty badly but that was a pretty heavy spraying.

I didn't believe it would work so I hit it pretty hard for immediate results.

Let the surface dry before reapplying and see how easy the remaining crust breaks up and decide from there.

Most people don't know that cal is for the soil as much as its for the plant and thats because if you fix cal in the soil you get free nitro from the air so the fert companies can't sell you nitro.

Its really hard to find studies on it so you need to figure it out for your self.

I always put adequate calcium in my mix and use ewc regularly up top and watered in to keep cal flowing down, so you are on your own here, sorry.

I can tell you that on my lawn with gypsum that I spread, it equivelant to a light dose of dry lawn fertilizer and do repeated light doses.

Its a slow and steady thing you need here but the plant and soil will tell you if you listen.

Its a metal so it effects the charge in the soil that powers the microbes too so you are also revving them and they can be fried too so just take your time.

There may be some KNF/Jadam info on it.

 

[Hash Hound]

Thank you for the heads up.
Nice mod on that bucket. Did you notice any difference?

Well it was a healthy plant but nothing of noticeable difference. I shoot for healthy and it was.

Northern Lights 12/12 from seed

P141 NL3 w4 a.jpg

• Hash Hound
• Jan 23, 2023

week 12, just as fast as an auto

P141 NL3 w12 b.jpg

• Hash Hound
• Jan 23, 2023

P141 NL3 w12 e.jpg

• Hash Hound
• Jan 23, 2023

 

[Fenderbender]

I'm seeing some signs of too much N..
how do you approach that in a sip?
I could fill up again with just PK & CM

 

[AspenCultivator]

Hey sip club! Has anyone wondered if there's a difference in temperature within the moisture gradient inside the sips? Maybe as the res gets emptied, there might be a small but discernible difference in temp to clue me in that the res needs water. I had some extra stuff laying around so I built a temperature sensor hub and put my theory to the test.

Details in my journal HERE.

I'm only a few hours in after bringing the sensors online, and it looks like there's no difference between the bottom temp and 1/3rd down the bucket. I'm going to leave the sensors in for a while as I want to see a full cycle in the res to determine if there's any difference in temp. But so far there doesn't seem to be a temperature gradient in my buckets. Not sure if that helps anyone out or not!

 

[Azimuth]

I would give it a couple days and see if it needs more. It really depends on the ppm of it.
Treat it like Cal-Mag, but most calmags are 3.5:1 ish cal:mag so if your regular mix of calmag is 100 ppm thats about 77ppm of calcium.

Mag also lowers cals strength as it needs part of cals charge to neutralize it so for pure calcium its likely about half the ppm of the cal in calmag is needed so if calmag mixes to 100ppm, or whatever the ppm is on how you mix it, go with half that ppm and apply it in the quantity you regularly do.

I mixed pure cal at 200 ppm on my experiment thinking that was pretty low, sprayed a pretty good dose on a 1.66 gal pots crusty surface.

It completely turned to dust and fried the plant pretty badly but that was a pretty heavy spraying.

I didn't believe it would work so I hit it pretty hard for immediate results.

Let the surface dry before reapplying and see how easy the remaining crust breaks up and decide from there.

Most people don't know that cal is for the soil as much as its for the plant and thats because if you fix cal in the soil you get free nitro from the air so the fert companies can't sell you nitro.

Its really hard to find studies on it so you need to figure it out for your self.

I always put adequate calcium in my mix and use ewc regularly up top and watered in to keep cal flowing down, so you are on your own here, sorry.

I can tell you that on my lawn with gypsum that I spread, it equivelant to a light dose of dry lawn fertilizer and do repeated light doses.

Its a slow and steady thing you need here but the plant and soil will tell you if you listen.

Its a metal so it effects the charge in the soil that powers the microbes too so you are also revving them and they can be fried too so just take your time.

There may be some KNF/Jadam info on it.

Thanks, Gee. I'll poke around more but much of the literature I've seen on this stuff mostly talks about the individual components without much discussion on the interrelationships.

Much like most of the cannabis growing books I've seen who focus on one deficiency at a time and provide inputs to correct that deficiency by telling you what things contain high levels of that nutrient, but they don't give much info on something that might seem totally unrelated like you've suggested to increase calcium which leads to better N uptake.

 

[Azimuth]

.

 

[Gee64]

Thanks, Gee. I'll poke around more but much of the literature I've seen on this stuff mostly talks about the individual components without much discussion on the interrelationships.

Much like most of the cannabis growing books I've seen who focus on one deficiency at a time and provide inputs to correct that deficiency by telling you what things contain high levels of that nutrient, but they don't give much info on something that might seem totally unrelated like you've suggested to increase calcium which leads to better N uptake.

Google "perfect soil base saturation" then keep in mind if your soil is sandy, or loamy, or in between, as base saturation sways to accomodate different soils. Its the base level of soil.

Weed likes loamy.

And remember its the "base" saturation, not the entire soil, just what gets loaded on the plates. Food is only a very small part of any good kitchen.

Calcium is about 65% of it, hydrogen 20%, organic matter 5%, and all the rest is in the last 10%. Everything else pretty much comes from the air, which is why airflow is soooooooo important.

Your soil needs more calcium than anything else because its job is to set the stage for everything else to work correctly.

Its the electricity.

Also google "Nitrogen cycle" and you quickly see that although nutrients can and do supply nitrogen, the air is the nitrogen storage house and nute nitro is just a way to get it back to the air.

Air is free so use it freely, Live Large!

Proteins are 100% nitrogen so pull it from the air to give the cells building materials.

Pull it from the soil to get specific proteins.

Carbon powers the cells so pull it from the air too, and always add both to the soil as the microbes expect it, to pay it back to the air for next time. Circle of life.

The carbon and nitro you add to the soil is microbe food not plant food.

Big healthy microbes produce big healthy breaths of CO2 that is heavy and sits at ground level for the plants to consume their carbon from there.

Thats what is meant by "Its all tied up until you run it thru a microbe".

Brix are health. You only need a few things to boost it... Carbon, Calcium, Phosphorus, Oxygen, and microbes.

N is free and K is laying around everywhere.

I don't know anyone who has ever had a K deficiency. I'm sure its possible, you know...if the unicorns stole all the K and ran away.

Soil is really simple, its Big Agra that complicated it.

Good healthy soil is 25% water, 25% O2, 45% minerals, and 5 % organic matter.

The dry matter of a vegetable, of which cannabis is classified as, is 47% carbon, 43% oxygen, 4% hydrogen, and the last 6% is everything else they want to sell you.

Calcium is way more abundant and needed in the soil than in the plant.

Its a large part of the 45% minerals in the soil but only part of the 6% dry matter in the plant.

And you are very very correct... its really hard to find it online. The University of Alberta did a bunch of really good soil research in the 60's and its out there if you dig for it.

Dr. Albrecht ( spelling??) has some good stuff too.

 

[Gee64]

Synergy is the hard part but once you have the basics synergy screams at you. Keff has a real nose for it. You 2 should get a room and shoot the shit. I bet your KNF/Jadam will prove to be rocket fuel for the system to circumvent small pot issues.

VPD is the throttle governor of the synergy.

 

[Stunger]

Google "perfect soil base saturation" then keep in mind if your soil is sandy, or loamy, or in between, as base saturation sways to accomodate different soils. Its the base level of soil.

Weed likes loamy.

And remember its the "base" saturation, not the entire soil, just what gets loaded on the plates. Food is only a very small part of any good kitchen.

Calcium is about 65% of it, hydrogen 20%, organic matter 5%, and all the rest is in the last 10%. Everything else pretty much comes from the air, which is why airflow is soooooooo important.

Your soil needs more calcium than anything else because its job is to set the stage for everything else to work correctly.

Its the electricity.

Also google "Nitrogen cycle" and you quickly see that although nutrients can and do supply nitrogen, the air is the nitrogen storage house and nute nitro is just a way to get it back to the air.

Air is free so use it freely, Live Large!

Proteins are 100% nitrogen so pull it from the air to give the cells building materials.

Pull it from the soil to get specific proteins.

Carbon powers the cells so pull it from the air too, and always add both to the soil as the microbes expect it, to pay it back to the air for next time. Circle of life.

The carbon and nitro you add to the soil is microbe food not plant food.

Big healthy microbes produce big healthy breaths of CO2 that is heavy and sits at ground level for the plants to consume their carbon from there.

Thats what is meant by "Its all tied up until you run it thru a microbe".

Brix are health. You only need a few things to boost it... Carbon, Calcium, Phosphorus, Oxygen, and microbes.

N is free and K is laying around everywhere.

I don't know anyone who has ever had a K deficiency. I'm sure its possible, you know...if the unicorns stole all the K and ran away.

Soil is really simple, its Big Agra that complicated it.

Good healthy soil is 25% water, 25% O2, 45% minerals, and 5 % organic matter.

The dry matter of a vegetable, of which cannabis is classified as, is 47% carbon, 43% oxygen, 4% hydrogen, and the last 6% is everything else they want to sell you.

Calcium is way more abundant and needed in the soil than in the plant.

Its a large part of the 45% minerals in the soil but only part of the 6% dry matter in the plant.

And you are very very correct... its really hard to find it online. The University of Alberta did a bunch of really good soil research in the 60's and its out there if you dig for it.

Dr. Albrecht ( spelling??) has some good stuff too.

Thanks Gee, I really enjoyed that post, awesome!

 

[Azimuth]

Synergy is the hard part but once you have the basics synergy screams at you. Keff has a real nose for it. You 2 should get a room and shoot the shit. I bet your KNF/Jadam will prove to be rocket fuel for the system to circumvent small pot issues.

VPD is the throttle governor of the synergy.

That's really why I'm so focused on the KNF/Jadam thing as my grow space dictates small plants, but I still want to grow organically, and larger pots are generally needed for a water only grow. I don't mind supplementing the nutrients but I want to do it in a certain way.

 

[Gee64]

That's really why I'm so focused on the KNF/Jadam thing as my grow space dictates small plants, but I still want to grow organically, and larger pots are generally needed for a water only grow. I don't mind supplementing the nutrients but I want to do it in a certain way.

I love this! We are stuck in a western mindset because we are so spoiled with resources and money. It makes us narrow in our thinking as we have a set variation of resources but also lazy because we have Amazon.

I haven't looked deeply into KNF/Jadam yet, its a time thing, but from my very brief look at it, it looks more like a holistic support system for the soil food web more than being its own version of the soil food web.

It appears to be holistic medicine for plants.

If there were plant doctors and a plant-care health system I think sick plants would be prescribed what Dr Azi is doing, but I haven't read more than 15 minutes on it, only the introductory generalities of it, so I could be way off base.

I hope I'm not as making my own home brews and preventatively medicating my plants to lower stress has to, in my mind, increase cellular function which leads to health.

I use weed, because its about the most demanding plant I have ever met, to hone my skills to grow healthy food.

It pulls minerals out of the soil very well so I compost most of my bounty.

KNF/Jadam screams health to me and I want that in my veggies so I can get it in my body.

I bet if you dialed it in you could set high brix records.

 

[chinchillin]

That's really why I'm so focused on the KNF/Jadam thing as my grow space dictates small plants, but I still want to grow organically, and larger pots are generally needed for a water only grow. I don't mind supplementing the nutrients but I want to do it in a certain way.

Was reading on another forum, from a thread from 2 years ago, that Drake from PureKNF channel mainly switched to KNF. One reason could be that jadam smells a bit worse for indoor grows. Doing more reading on the matter it seems like the IMO portions overlap with each other. One youtuber (Chris Trump) has like a 4-5 IMO processes and that his IMO #4 is added to speeding up the FAA from KNF for example.

 

[CaptainLucky]

It also fixes hardpan on your lawn. I use gypsum for that.

Spread the gypsum pellets with a fertilizer spreader and water it in with a sprinkler for about 45 minutes.

In a few days it will look like someone buried golfballs.

Every pellet will be a lump of floculated soil. Do it every 2-3 weeks and by the autumn your lawn will be springy.

When you can push a pencil all the way down with one finger you have won.

People will step on it, make a wierd face, pop their shoes off and run around on it. Its hilarious!

It will strengthen the cell walls in lawn so well you will never see a grass stain again.

I run around on mine in white socks to make the point to my buddies who swear by 20-20-20.

Dandelions are calcium miners so if you correct the calcium they will diminish.

That’s great info , thanks. My neighbor has them bad so now I have to deal with them but if this works no more.CL

 

[Azimuth]

Was reading on another forum, from a thread from 2 years ago, that Drake from PureKNF channel mainly switched to KNF. One reason could be that jadam smells a bit worse for indoor grows. Doing more reading on the matter it seems like the IMO portions overlap with each other. One youtuber (Chris Trump) has like a 4-5 IMO processes and that his IMO #4 is added to speeding up the FAA from KNF for example.

Yep, Drake and Chris Trump, both from Hawaii, are probably the two individuals most responsible for bringing the practices to the U.S.

Both have lots of great content on the 'tube.

I use worm bin microbes to make most of my stuff and found it worked for me than regular IMO. But I don't have the best leaf mold soil so that maybe part of it.

 

[BabyTrees]

*** DIY SIP Designs ***

For those interested in building their own SIP to experiment with I thought I'd offer some simple design options. Keep in mind there are several different ways to build these things and I've tried a few and they all seem to produce about the same end result: great plants.

There are a few simple design principles that all of the various designs share, and essentially those are soil above, a water reservoir below and an air gap in between, and typically a fill tube to allow you to by-pass the soil to fill the reservoir. How those things are accomplished is up to the builder. I make the air gap/water reservoir by establishing a void in the bottom of the container that soil is packed densely around which forms the wicking mechanism to kept the rest of the soil in the pot constantly moist, but on a bit of a gradient, wetter at the bottom, less so as you move up the pot. This is similar to what is found in nature since water drops in the soil due to gravity so there is usually more water the deeper you go.

I've built them in various sizes ranging from Solo Cups, to 1L take-out containers, to 2 and 5 Gallon (8 and 20L) buckets and up to 17 gallon (65L) tubs. Here's how I do them:


Solo Cups
This version is a bit of a compromise since creating the void is hard to do with such a small container so it's built a bit differently than the others.

For this size I make a small hole with a soldering iron or drill bit about 1 inch/25mm up the side from the bottom of the cup.

Then I put either small hydroton clay balls or perlite/pumice in the bottom up to a level about 1.75"/45mm and then top with soil. Since the hydroton/perlite layer is higher than the overflow hole, there is a bit of an air gap satisfying the design requirement. There is not as much air as in the other design options, but as I said, this one is a bit of a compromise.

Given the lack of real estate to work with I don't even bother with a fill tube, but rather water by sitting the solo cup in a slightly larger tub of water to fill the reservoir from below through the overflow hole. I usually put a second hole slightly above the overflow hole which seems to assist with filling the reservoir more quickly by allowing a vent for the air being displaced by the increasing water level.

That's it. If you use clear cups you'll be able to see the roots develop but be sure to slide it into an opaque cover cup since the roots won't develop as well if exposed to light.


1L Take-out Container
This is probably the smallest size I would take to flower but is large enough for a respectable harvest (relatively speaking).

For this one you'll need two containers. The first is the 1L container and the second is some sort of small food grade plastice cup/container where the diameter of the rim is slightly smaller than the bottom of the 1L container. I use small single serving applesause containers that fit perfectly. This will make the reservoir void by making a bunch of small holes in it and placing it upside down in the bottom of the 1L container.

I make an overflow hole in the 1L container about 1 inch/25mm up from the bottom but make sure it is at least 1/2"/12mm below the height of the cup that makes up the void to ensure I have an air gap. Up to double that amount is preferable.

Then I make a bunch of small holes in the smaller container (I use a soldering iron) and place it upside down in the 1L container. Put your soil mix in so that it surrounds the inner cup but try to leave a void between it and the overflow hole to help with air flow. I've built this size both with and without a fill tube so that's a preference decision.

Be sure to pack the soil around the inner cup firmly to help with the wicking process, but fill the rest of the container with soil firmed like you would for a normal pot.


2 Gallon/8L or 5 Gallon/20L Buckets
Same basic design as the 1L version, just larger containers. I get my buckets from Lowes in the States because they are a deep, dark blue which helps shade the roots from light better than lighter or white colored ones.

For the container that creates the void I've used food grade plastic food containers like salad bowls or food storage containers as well as pasta strainers. Same rules here, try to find a container where the upper rim is slightly smaller than the lower width of your bucket.

I do use fill tubes for these so first I make a larger hole in the bottom of the inner container (which will be on top when we flip it to install it) that is slightly larger than my fill tube. I use the white PVC plumbing pipe (1/2"/12mm) and make my hole with a 7/8"/22mm hole saw which is the outer diameter of the pipe.

I actually make two holes, one each on opposite sides of this inner container. Then I use two fill tubes with the idea that there will be a better chance at air flow with this set-up than there would be with a single entry to a cave-like void you'd get with a single fill tube. No science to back this, I just feel like it is a better design.

I also like to have my fill tube stop just after entering the void to ensure air flow even when the reservoir is full so I cut off a small stub piece from the fill tube and attach it back with a coupler which holds it up when installed since the coupler is a larger diameter than the pipe and won't fit through my hole. ResDog has his fill tubes bottom out in the reservoir but makes holes all along its length to accomplish the same thing.

Then I make my overflow hole in the outer bucket making sure it is at leat 1"/25mm below the top of my void container for the air gap, and then make a bunch of small holes in the inner container to try to maximize air and water flow from this inner cup into the surrounding soil. I also make holes on the bottom (what will be the top) of the inner cup to get air to the roots once planted.

Then fill the pot with your soil mix and be sure to pack the soil around the inner cup firmly to help with the wicking process, but fill the rest of the container with soil firmed like you would for a normal pot.

I use a funnel I cut from the top of a water bottle to make pouring water into the fill tube a bit easier. I use a plumbing fitting (called a bushing) to attach a 1" coupling to the 1/2"pipe and the neck of the bottle slides into it nicely. I'm right handed so I like to position the fill tube just to the right of my overflow hole. This makes it easier to watch for run-off as I'm filling the reservoir than it would if it were on the oppositie side of the bucket.


17G/20L Plastic Tub
This design is a bit different from the buckets. The tubs I used for my outdoor vegetable garden are rectangular and I use perforated landscaping drainage pipe layed flat to make the reservoir/air gap. I used 3 sections of 4"/100mm pipe that fit perfectly laid side-by-side but 2 sections of 6"/150mm pipe would work just as well and give you a larger reservoir.

I capped the pipes off with the cover that came with my 1L containers to keep soil out of the pipes. I cut the cover slightly so it would snap between the ribs of the drainage pipe. Then I made my overflow hole about 1"/25mm below the top of the pipe.

Next I installed a 1"/25mm fill tube by cutting a hole in one of the pipe sections and then filled around the pipes with my soil mix being sure to pack it well around the pipes to ensure good wicking. The rest of the tub was filled with my mix firmed like I normally do.

-Or- If using cloth pots, you can simply lay them on the soil that covers the pipes. I'd probably put a good inch or two of soil over the pipes to account for any settling, although there shouldn't be much of that if you've packed it well.


*******

So, that's about it. pretty simple but very effective.

ResDog and Emilya use a slightly different design for their tubs and hopefully they'll post their versions to show some options for those wanting to build their own.

And finally, here's another design option which is a video posted originally by @GreenFingaz which shows a common version found on YouTube:

in regards too the video - > I saw a build using a net pot instead of a quart paint container would that be suitable as well? a small net pot maybe filled with some hydroton so it doesn't wash too much soil too the bottom chamber?

 

[Azimuth]

in regards too the video - > I saw a build using a net pot instead of a quart paint container would that be suitable as well? a small net pot maybe filled with some hydroton so it doesn't wash too much soil too the bottom chamber?

Hey Baby Trees, welcome to #SIP club!

The size/height of the connector cup will depend on the distance between the bottoms of the two buckets. You want something tall enough to bridge the entire distance. It's ok if it's too tall as it can extend higher up in the upper bucket.

Whatever you use for that connector cup will have soil pretty well packed down in it so not much will wash out.

Hydroton will function differently from soil but that may only matter if you grow organically. Otherwise either will serve the same function, namely wicking water from the bottom bucket up into the upper one, as well as providing a foothold for the roots that want to explore the reservoir area.