SIP Club - Getting Hydro/Coco Results In A Soil Based Medium

[BeyondClouds]

Hey Clouds, do you mean you are using bucket-in-bucket type, with a lot of holes drilled in the bottom of the top bucket? And then what you call the "foot" is a large net pot (wider horizontally), or a pot serving as a net pot with a lot of holes in the base and along the sides?

Good to hear these SIP terms like "foot" and "dome", so I know what folks are talking about here.

RE: "allow the soil/roots „collect“ more air/oxygen because the lowest part of the container won‘t be as saturated as long as in the dome version" ...

I don't follow you there, because the action is basically the same, from what I can tell... see the "R" zone in the chart. That zone is always the lowest part of the container. I think what matters is the soil surface area in contact with the reservoir water (size of "R"). It seems to me that the bigger "R" is, the more roots will inhabit that zone, and the faster the water will be consumed by the roots (depends on the age of the plant). Well, in the two dome versions in the chart here, I'm actually not sure which would be faster at lowering the res level, because a small "R" would mean lots of roots competing for that zone. Again, depends on the size/age of the plant and how big the root mass has become. For example, initially a young plant will be slow at draining the res with the "tall insert" design, because "R" is bigger.

Yup, it is a bucket-in-bucket type. I show the built-up in my current journal.

However....Azi and you other experienced SIP-grower please correct me if i'm talking bs here....I got the impression that the magic that we see in SIPs is not only about the constant flow of water through the media/plant (in your case "R") but more so about the roots/soil being in contact with air/oxygen (here "A"). A SIP with a footer, compared to SIP with a dome, will max this area A across the whole bottom of the container and therefore allow the media/roots to "breath" more air more evenly.

Otherwise you are totally right about "R" being an important area to look at. "R" will give you the wicking action needed to saturate your soil....it will in combination with the "built-up" of your soil determine how high your watertable will be in your container and how well your soil will be saturated. But keep in mind that an oversaturated soil will lock out air, leading to root rot. Therefore a large and constantly saturated area "R" seems like asking for problems, thinking that alot of those bottom roots will be constantly in a very wet media.

After all it also depends alot on your style of growing. As an organic grower i think this way....the water in the reservoir "feeds" my soil and my soil feeds my plant....therefore i try to focus on a good balance between soil saturation and air to keep the roots happy and the microbes going.

I hope this all makes a bit of sense....english is sadly not my mother language and SIPing is quite a complex system if you start thinking about it in detail.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Yup, it is a bucket-in-bucket type. I show the built-up in my current journal.

However....Azi and you other experienced SIP-grower please correct me if i'm talking bs here....

I'm a SIP newbie I just built my first one, and getting ready to build 2 more and I think doing a side-by-side test of the low-profile dome vs. the high dome.

I got the impression that the magic that we see in SIPs is not only about the constant flow of water through the media/plant (in your case "R") but more so about the roots/soil being in contact with air/oxygen (here "A"). A SIP with a footer, compared to SIP with a dome, will max this area A across the whole bottom of the container and therefore allow the media/roots to "breath" more air more evenly.

OK, I see what you're saying now. Yes, the footer is surrounded by "A", while the domes have "A" in the center with roots surrounding "A". You may be right that "R" being in the center of "A" will allow more air to permeate the soil, especially if you are comparing bucket-in-bucket with low profile dome. It seems the tall dome would have different dynamics, because "A" is larger (vertically) and reaches up into the soil, and "R" area is also larger. By the way, my decision not to use bucket-in-bucket is because there's evidence of the grow bucket style (dome) system being able to produce a 1 lb yield, which is 2x what I'm going for.

Otherwise you are totally right about "R" being an important area to look at. "R" will give you the wicking action needed to saturate your soil....it will in combination with the "built-up" of your soil determine how high your watertable will be in your container and how well your soil will be saturated. But keep in mind that an oversaturated soil will lock out air, leading to root rot. Therefore a large and constantly saturated area "R" seems like asking for problems, thinking that alot of those bottom roots will be constantly in a very wet media.

Again, I think it matters how big the plant is. Considering the "tall insert" system, once the plant is well developed in veg, it will be able to consume the res water quickly. Using this system would require a specific watering/feeding regimen. Until the plant develops a lot of roots in the res, maybe more top watering would work best—just water as a normal pot, and the runoff gets captured in the res. Later, when the plant is in peak growth, the res could be filled via the tube more often.

Thanks for bringing up a good point—there are two things draining the reservoir: 1) wicking is moving the water upward, and 2) the roots are drinking directly from the res. I have a mental image of wicking where the lower soil in the bucket gets saturated, as you say, meaning the "R" zone and above; however, I see this as a gradient rather than uniform. I am just theorizing at this point, because I haven't grown in one of these yet.

After all it also depends alot on your style of growing. As an organic grower i think this way....the water in the reservoir "feeds" my soil and my soil feeds my plant....therefore i try to focus on a good balance between soil saturation and air to keep the roots happy and the microbes going.

I totally agree. There needs to be an ebb and flow of water. I think this also helps with the air permeation into the soil.

I hope this all makes a bit of sense....english is sadly not my mother language and SIPing is quite a complex system if you start thinking about it in detail.

I totally agree! These are complex systems. Azi is right... if we deviate from the tried-and-true designs, there are no guarantees, but it's fun to experiment, and yeah, maybe we can make improvements.

 

[Stonecrusher]

Since we are looking at SIP designs I'd like to throw my two cents in. I too toyed with the bucket in a bucket design and even built a couple. But eventually I went with the 4" perforated drain pipe for a res. I built multiple 5 gal versions which hold ~1.2 gals water in the res, and I also built a 15 gal version which has ~2.5 gal res. They have been pretty much flawless, and the 15 gal version is incredible! I built it because I have them at a friends house and I didn't want him to worry about watering techniques. He just fills the res to runoff and walks away and they are the best plants from my whole summer grow. My only concern is that these plants will run out of food so I will have to figure out how to keep nutes up.

The soil to reservoir ratio of this design is about 4-1. I pack soil into the center and don't mess with other media.

1000005718.jpg

• Stonecrusher
• Aug 23, 2024

Even with some gaps because the drain pipe is slightly hard to cut Ive had no soil migrate into the res as evidenced when I clean them out between runs.

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• Stonecrusher
• Aug 23, 2024

This is my soil mixing spot. If you have an unused horseshoe pit...go with it.

1000005721.jpg

• Stonecrusher
• Aug 23, 2024

Roots anyone?

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• Stonecrusher
• Jul 28, 2024

Post-mortem came back positive for AWESOME!

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• Stonecrusher
• Jul 28, 2024

 

[StoneOtter]

Post-mortem came back positive for AWESOME!

Sure did! Nice design and build and growing! Mr Crusher!

 

[cbdhemp808]

Since we are looking at SIP designs I'd like to throw my two cents in. I too toyed with the bucket in a bucket design and even built a couple. But eventually I went with the 4" perforated drain pipe for a res. I built multiple 5 gal versions which hold ~1.2 gals water in the res, and I also built a 15 gal version which has ~2.5 gal res. They have been pretty much flawless, and the 15 gal version is incredible! I built it because I have them at a friends house and I didn't want him to worry about watering techniques. He just fills the res to runoff and walks away and they are the best plants from my whole summer grow. My only concern is that these plants will run out of food so I will have to figure out how to keep nutes up.

The soil to reservoir ratio of this design is about 4-1. I pack soil into the center and don't mess with other media.

1000005718.jpg​

• Stonecrusher
• Today at 5:16 AM

Very cool, and you can get flexible perforated drain pipe in HDPE plastic, which to my knowledge is the most non-toxic...

Advanced Drainage Systems 4 in. x 10 ft. Singlewall Perforated Drain Pipe 4040010 - The Home Depot

Advanced Drainage Systems, Inc. (ADS) 4 in. x 10 ft. Singlewall Perforated Drain Pipe provides superior strength while its high density polyethylene (HDPE) construction allows the corrugated pipe to be

www.homedepot.com

Do you have pics of a grow using these?

 

[cbdhemp808]

I found @Stonecrusher 's 5 gal SIP pics... guessing this is with the perforated drain pipe design. These are outdoor autos...

Stonecrusher's Backyard Bonanza - Bringing Out The Big Pots!

The summer garden is a bit behind schedule. I started the new plants later than usual so they don't get too big and obvious over the fence. They seem small, but I figure they will grow into nice size plants by August. The ones in the SIPs are autos and they are already doing their flowering thing.

www.420magazine.com

Has anyone done a SIP like this and grown photos?

 

[InTheShed]

With this design there is not an air chamber, do I need one though?

The creator of this thread would say yes! ↓↓↓

This air chamber and the constant availability of water and nutrients are what I believe lead to the incredible results these pots produce.

Even one of the tags on the thread is "air gap."

 

[Azimuth]

Welcome to SIP Club @can1mar !

 

[Azimuth]

Hi all, a new(bie) member here. I was thinking of making my second grow with a sip but have couple of questions:

Just be careful because growing in these things is addictive.

Now, the insert doesn't look like it has a overflow prevention, I might add one or be lazy and judge the water level by the floater. With this design there is not an air chamber, do I need one though?

Yes. The air gap is what keeps these things from getting root rot from the soil and roots sitting constantly in water.

It's also part of what gives them the explosive growth much like you get from hydro.

Skip the air component and pay the price.

With those bigger totes many of us have found the perforated drainage pipe to be the simplest and best thing to use. Much like @Stonecrusher except side by side in a couple/three across in straight runs depending on size of pipe and width of container.

The overflow hole makes the watering bullet proof but you can get away with just using a dip stick if you're attentive.

Also, with the whole SIP system it's not very clear what feeding strategy to use? DWC like with tds metering, or the same as organic one?

Depends on your grow. Using synthetic nutes you can go right down the pipe after the first week or so. Organics seems to benefit from an occasional top watering to help spread any top dressing and calcium feedings. I go weekly but others do much less frequently.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Looking at Crusher's design...

I like this design... it's similar to bucket-in-bucket, with the "R" mostly at the center, but a little "R" around the doughnut as well. The doughnut diameter could be slightly smaller, reducing the center hole to almost nil, which would open up soil/res root zone ("R") around the perimeter. The height of the insert (drain pipe) is 4", so that means to get 1" air space, the drain pipe needs to come in slightly lower, at 3" vs. 3.5". Almost the same, but slightly smaller reservoir than bucket-in-bucket net pot, or low-profile dome designs.

The only downside I see is that "R" would be small, which is both the wicking zone and the zone where roots can reach the saturated soil directly. Does anyone have some of this 4" perforated pipe? How tight of a diameter can you get with it? Would 2 of them stacked make sense?

EDIT: With a 2" dia. center hole, the volume of the internal doughnut space (the torus) is about 1 gal. Reduce the inner hole a bit and you get less than 1 gal—a 1/2" center hole would yield about 3/4 gal volume. I don't think stacking makes sense, because it would remove soil volume too much. So, for a 1" air space, you'd have a slightly smaller reservoir than bucket-in-bucket and low-profile dome designs. And, "R" is on the small side.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Looking at Crusher's design...

I like this design... it's similar to bucket-in-bucket, with the "R" mostly at the center, but a little "R" around the doughnut as well. The doughnut diameter could be slightly smaller, reducing the center hole to almost nil, which would open up soil/res root zone ("R") around the perimeter. The height of the insert (drain pipe) is 4", so that means to get 1" air space, the drain pipe needs to come in slightly lower, at 3" vs. 3.5". Almost the same, but slightly smaller reservoir than bucket-in-bucket net pot, or low-profile dome designs.

The only downside I see is that "R" would be small, which is both the wicking zone and the zone where roots can reach the saturated soil directly. Does anyone have some of this 4" perforated pipe? How tight of a diameter can you get with it? Would 2 of them stacked make sense?

I don't see how you would fill both of them if you stacked 2.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I don't see how you would fill both of them if you stacked 2.

They could stack... just move the drain pipe up into the upper one. BUT... they would displace the soil too much... soil would be reduced to 3 gal. One of them, with a 2" center hole, is about 1 gal volume, leaving 4 gal soil. Roughly speaking.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

They could stack... just move the drain pipe up into the upper one. BUT... they would displace the soil too much... soil would be reduced to 3 gal. One of them, with a 2" center hole, is about 1 gal volume, leaving 4 gal soil. Roughly speaking.

Yeah, but how would the water from the fill pipe get into the second pipe doughnut after you fill the first?
Would you have a connector between them?

 

[cbdhemp808]

Yeah, but how would the water from the fill pipe get into the second pipe doughnut after you fill the first?
Would you have a connector between them?

Think of it in terms of the water level in the 5 gal bucket, and the air space. It's perforated drain pipe, so water enters the doughnuts. With the doughnuts stacked, the water just enters the top doughnut from the fill tube. Say the drain pipe is centered on the side of the top doughnut, leaving about 2" air space above that. You get approx. 2 gal reservoir. As the roots drink from the res, the air space increases (inside the doughnuts).

It's too much reservoir and not enough soil.

See also my EDIT above, "Looking at Crusher's design..."

 

[cbdhemp808]

Here's Crusher's design, sort of like bucket-in-bucket w/ central "foot", using 4" (inner dia.) perforated drain pipe.

This diagram is more to scale than my other ones, so I'll re-do those as well. Standard 5 gal bucket height (14.5") and width (10.25"). The "4 gal soil" is approximate.

 

[Azimuth]

Here's Crusher's design, sort of like bucket-in-bucket w/ central "foot", using 4" (inner dia.) perforated drain pipe.

This diagram is more to scale than my other ones, so I'll re-do those as well. Standard 5 gal bucket height (14.5") and width (10.25"). The "4 gal soil" is approximate.

Thanks. Yes that is how I built my larger tote SIPs except rather than forming a circle with the pipe, I just laid three sections side by side in my rectangular bin and capped each of the six openings.

 

[can1mar]

Yes. The air gap is what keeps these things from getting root rot from the soil and roots sitting constantly in water.

It's also part of what gives them the explosive growth much like you get from hydro.

Skip the air component and pay the price.

With those bigger totes many of us have found the perforated drainage pipe to be the simplest and best thing to use. Much like @Stonecrusher except side by side in a couple/three across in straight runs depending on size of pipe and width of container.

Sadly perforated drainage pipe is not the easiest/cheapest thing to acquire where I am (no offline shops have them afaik and online tends to sell in bulk).

If the air pocket is just about preventing roots to touch the water, would not the design of the insert above have this already? As far as I can see, there should not be too much of a difference compared to a drainage pipe (unless I am missing something)

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Sadly perforated drainage pipe is not the easiest/cheapest thing to acquire where I am (no offline shops have them afaik and online tends to sell in bulk).

If the air pocket is just about preventing roots to touch the water, would not the design of the insert above have this already? As far as I can see, there should not be too much of a difference compared to a drainage pipe (unless I am missing something)

I thought it was to prevent the water in the res from going anaerobic, and providing airflow down at the bottom of the soil.

 

[Chuckeye]

Just a thought >

Lee Valley had the GroBuckets on sale for $35 for 3 and a buddy gifted me another one ! (No longer available)

Why bother DIY ?

Before that I was going to use a 1 gallon ice cream container. And you get to eat the ice cream

Use a soldering iron to make slits on the bottom of the container and half circles around the rim. Any 2" or larger diameter pipe to fill the "reservoir"....

And of course a drain hole in the pail, leaving a 1" air gap at the top of the ice cream container > done.

BTW > GroBuckets do not have any holes on the sides and fill tube is only long enough to enter the top of the reservoir.

Cheers

 

[Azimuth]

If the air pocket is just about preventing roots to touch the water, would not the design of the insert above have this already? As far as I can see, there should not be too much of a difference compared to a drainage pipe (unless I am missing something)

It won't be as effective because part of what the overflow hole does is allow for some air flow rather than the dead-end of a closed container. Not a huge deal but I'm convinced it is the lower air chamber that's the magic behind these containers so any changes to it could have an impact.

Just try to make sure you have some air space between the water and the bottom of the soil. It's a compromise, but you gotta do what you gotta do.