- Thread starter
- #141
You mean, rather than winging it?
Plant Alchemy With KNF: Korean Natural Farming And Jadam
- Thread starter Azimuth
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #142
@FelipeBlu ,
Most of the information I've researched for FAA tout it as a great source of nitrogen for plants. I saw a commercial product that seems to be the same type of process as I use, and listed it as 3
1 for NPK. Commercial version
If that's true for what I produce, does that nitrogen level make sense when compared to the P and K listed in the tables I listed (and you quoted from)? The FAA is a cold process as opposed to those producing fish meals and emulsions that cook out some of the highly beneficial properties for use in other products. With FAA or fish hydrolysate, a cold process is used which preserves all of the fish oils and other things.
Most of the information I've researched for FAA tout it as a great source of nitrogen for plants. I saw a commercial product that seems to be the same type of process as I use, and listed it as 3
1 for NPK. Commercial versionIf that's true for what I produce, does that nitrogen level make sense when compared to the P and K listed in the tables I listed (and you quoted from)? The FAA is a cold process as opposed to those producing fish meals and emulsions that cook out some of the highly beneficial properties for use in other products. With FAA or fish hydrolysate, a cold process is used which preserves all of the fish oils and other things.
Hey Azi, thought I'd come by for a re read of all this. Spring will be here asap, 
not soon enough for me! Got my Jadam book and your journal to guide me. Going to be a fun season!- Thread starter
- #144
Welcome back, Stone!
Not soon enough for me either. I'm looking forward to spring too. I've got my plan ready to go. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the 20 gallon single barrel approach was way overkill for my needs, so this year I'm going to go with much smaller containers (two, 5 gallon buckets for me). One for veg nutes and the other for flower. And a weekly production of a much smaller quantity of the microbe solution.
Since you dilute the fertilizer extract by 20-30 times with water and the microbe solution by 10 times, a little goes a long way. Plus you can add to the existing ferment whenever you have more material.
Once I get the buckets going I'll repost the relevant lines from the tables at the beginning of the thread to highlight why I'm choosing the plants I am in the amounts I'm using and compare them to both dandelion and fish amino acid. I do think the plants you choose are important if using it as your main source of nutes, which I will be doing.
Probably a lot less important if you're mainly using compost and mulches like @Bode does.
Nine Toed Hippie
Well-Known Member
I will be tagging along for the ride if that’s ok. So interested in JADAM.
Come on Spring!
NTH
Come on Spring!
NTH
- Thread starter
- #146
Get your buckets ready! Even if all you do is a single bucket of mostly dandelion, you'll be able to get a feel for the process and see how well the plants respond.
Nine Toed Hippie
Well-Known Member
I should have an adequate supply of leaf mold by springtime too. Have several piles of leaves and grass clippings maturing. Also have a worm bed started. Just getting my feet wet in it all.
NTH
I'm looking at the small more frequently made or added to batches too.
- Thread starter
- #149
It really makes so much sense to me. I didn't use most of what I produced and the bigger container was too heavy to move, and took longer sticks to mix it up and then, at the end of the season I just had more than I needed to deal with.
I think the smaller buckets will be perfect and give more options for specializing if you want. Like my separate buckets for veg and flower. Could do another for kelp, or whatever and then mix and match depending on the stage of growth you're in. Or just go with one bucket for ease of use. Lots more possibilities with smaller buckets for those of us not growing on a large scale.
If your FAA is truly 3-1-1, then you might be low on K. I would prefer something like 3-1-4Most of the information I've researched for FAA tout it as a great source of nitrogen for plants. I saw a commercial product that seems to be the same type of process as I use, and listed it as 3
If that's true for what I produce, does that nitrogen level make sense when compared to the P and K listed in the tables I listed (and you quoted from)? The FAA is a cold process as opposed to those producing fish meals and emulsions that cook out some of the highly beneficial properties for use in other products. With FAA or fish hydrolysate, a cold process is used which preserves all of the fish oils and other things.
What in your toolbox has mostly K?
- Thread starter
- #151
That would be comfrey, which, interestingly enough, is lower in just about everything else.
Although the mineral content of FAA by itself seems to be pretty high in K, at least according to the table.
Azimuth said:
...........................P.............K..........Ca..........Mg..........Fe.........Si...........S.............Cl...........Na.........Al...
Fish (FAA)............836.8......1,013....718.8.......105.7.....2.57.....0.29....127.2......1,000.....109.3.......1.31
Let’s say that your FAA is actually 3-1-1 and we use these numbers for the other nutrients. The values of P and K here are very close to each other, so we’ll call them the 1 in the ratios. If N is three times their value (~3000 ppm) and you wanted to dilute down to make your dose 100 ppm N, you would divide by 30 to get there. If you divide the P and K (and the other nutrients listed above) values by 30, you would have:
100 ppm N
28 ppm P (good)
34 ppm K (too low)
24 ppm Ca (maybe too low depending on your water chemistry)
3.5 ppm Mg (ditto)
You would want a source of K that would give you another 100 ppm of K. And possibly a source of Ca and Mg if your water is low on these.
...........................P.............K..........Ca..........Mg..........Fe.........Si...........S.............Cl...........Na.........Al...
Fish (FAA)............836.8......1,013....718.8.......105.7.....2.57.....0.29....127.2......1,000.....109.3.......1.31
Let’s say that your FAA is actually 3-1-1 and we use these numbers for the other nutrients. The values of P and K here are very close to each other, so we’ll call them the 1 in the ratios. If N is three times their value (~3000 ppm) and you wanted to dilute down to make your dose 100 ppm N, you would divide by 30 to get there. If you divide the P and K (and the other nutrients listed above) values by 30, you would have:
100 ppm N
28 ppm P (good)
34 ppm K (too low)
24 ppm Ca (maybe too low depending on your water chemistry)
3.5 ppm Mg (ditto)
You would want a source of K that would give you another 100 ppm of K. And possibly a source of Ca and Mg if your water is low on these.
- Thread starter
- #153
*** Cloning Experiment ***
Today I'm going to start a cloning experiment since my current round failed miserably. My usual process is to cut the clones, remove most of the foliage, scrape them, dip them in aloe, and stick them in my dampened seed starting mix. I leave them under a misted dome for three days, then gradually harden them off for another three, and then keep them open to the air until they root, typically in 15-20 days.
But this round, due to low humidity and a proximate fan in my cabinet, they all dried out before they could root. So, I want to come up with a cloning process that I can use in the low humidity conditions we usually get around these parts during the winter season. Water based cloning systems are supposed to not need a dome since there is ample moisture for the cuttings from the water bath below. The challenge is you usually need to keep the water temps low since it's easy to get water borne root pathogens breeding in warm, stagnant water, but for me clones root best above 75*F.
In @Virgin Ground 's current thread she highlighted her Coffee Can Cloner set up, and I'll include a version of it in mine.
My setup will be pretty simple. I'll adapt my popsicle cloner and fill each of four tubes with a different mix. I'll test: 1) water only, 2) sand only, 3) sand and leaf mold, and 4) sand and worm castings. The mixes will be equal parts of each.
I'll set the popsicle cloner in a shallow water bath in an outer container on a heat mat and use the wicking capabilities of the sand to keep the mediums damp. I have a hempy hole in my outer container so the water bath level should be at a fairly consistent height.
Cuttings in the various sand mixtures will be set so the bottom of the cut remains above the water line. For the water only cut, it will rest on the bottom of the container in the water.
For the water bath, I'll use rain water mixed with a combination of three FPJ's that are supposed to have good rooting hormones contained in them (aloe, seaweed, and willow) along with some worm casting extract to hopefully keep root rot nasties at bay since I'm going to keep the setup on a heat mat, probably in the mid to high 70*'s F. Maybe low 80*'s.
I'll probably clean out the outer container every 2-3 days and replace with fresh solution.
I'll prepare the cuttings in my usual way, trimming most of the foliage off, scraping the bottom inch or so on one side and dipping them in fresh aloe. Assuming I get roots on all, I'll compare things like number days to root, robustness of roots and how well they transplant on.
The cloning area is off to the side of the veg box in my cabinet. There is no light directly above but the area does get ambient light from the rest of the box.
Hopefully with this method I will eliminate some of the low seasonal humidity issues. We'll see.
Today I'm going to start a cloning experiment since my current round failed miserably. My usual process is to cut the clones, remove most of the foliage, scrape them, dip them in aloe, and stick them in my dampened seed starting mix. I leave them under a misted dome for three days, then gradually harden them off for another three, and then keep them open to the air until they root, typically in 15-20 days.
But this round, due to low humidity and a proximate fan in my cabinet, they all dried out before they could root. So, I want to come up with a cloning process that I can use in the low humidity conditions we usually get around these parts during the winter season. Water based cloning systems are supposed to not need a dome since there is ample moisture for the cuttings from the water bath below. The challenge is you usually need to keep the water temps low since it's easy to get water borne root pathogens breeding in warm, stagnant water, but for me clones root best above 75*F.
In @Virgin Ground 's current thread she highlighted her Coffee Can Cloner set up, and I'll include a version of it in mine.
My setup will be pretty simple. I'll adapt my popsicle cloner and fill each of four tubes with a different mix. I'll test: 1) water only, 2) sand only, 3) sand and leaf mold, and 4) sand and worm castings. The mixes will be equal parts of each.
I'll set the popsicle cloner in a shallow water bath in an outer container on a heat mat and use the wicking capabilities of the sand to keep the mediums damp. I have a hempy hole in my outer container so the water bath level should be at a fairly consistent height.
Cuttings in the various sand mixtures will be set so the bottom of the cut remains above the water line. For the water only cut, it will rest on the bottom of the container in the water.
For the water bath, I'll use rain water mixed with a combination of three FPJ's that are supposed to have good rooting hormones contained in them (aloe, seaweed, and willow) along with some worm casting extract to hopefully keep root rot nasties at bay since I'm going to keep the setup on a heat mat, probably in the mid to high 70*'s F. Maybe low 80*'s.
I'll probably clean out the outer container every 2-3 days and replace with fresh solution.
I'll prepare the cuttings in my usual way, trimming most of the foliage off, scraping the bottom inch or so on one side and dipping them in fresh aloe. Assuming I get roots on all, I'll compare things like number days to root, robustness of roots and how well they transplant on.
The cloning area is off to the side of the veg box in my cabinet. There is no light directly above but the area does get ambient light from the rest of the box.
Hopefully with this method I will eliminate some of the low seasonal humidity issues. We'll see.
- Thread starter
- #155
Better get a bigger box of popcorn and a few extra buds. This could take a while.
I got the time AziBetter get a bigger box of popcorn and a few extra buds. This could take a while.
- Thread starter
- #157
*** Seed Storage ***
I'm seeing lots of questions in different threads lately on how to store the seeds you aren't going to plant right away.
I keep mine in the fridge, lower shelf and way out back behind other stuff. A darkened and sealed container is best to block the light. An amber glass jar with a screw-on lid would be perfect.
The consistent low temperature and low humidity is very helpful to long term seed storage. Some folks even advocate keeping them in the freezer. I've had no noticeable degradation in germination rates even after 5 years and more.
If you don't keep them in the fridge, but just at ambient room temps, the fluctuating temperatures and humidity levels throughout the year will significantly affect germination rates as time goes on. If you're just keeping them a year or so it might not matter much, but anything more than that and the fridge is your friend.
When I want to plant some I take out just what I need and put the rest back in the fridge as quickly as I can. I want the storage group to have as little time out as possible, and I certainly don't want them warming up to room temperature. The rising temps can also change humidity levels and further degrade the seeds chances of sprouting.
I'm seeing lots of questions in different threads lately on how to store the seeds you aren't going to plant right away.
I keep mine in the fridge, lower shelf and way out back behind other stuff. A darkened and sealed container is best to block the light. An amber glass jar with a screw-on lid would be perfect.
The consistent low temperature and low humidity is very helpful to long term seed storage. Some folks even advocate keeping them in the freezer. I've had no noticeable degradation in germination rates even after 5 years and more.
If you don't keep them in the fridge, but just at ambient room temps, the fluctuating temperatures and humidity levels throughout the year will significantly affect germination rates as time goes on. If you're just keeping them a year or so it might not matter much, but anything more than that and the fridge is your friend.
When I want to plant some I take out just what I need and put the rest back in the fridge as quickly as I can. I want the storage group to have as little time out as possible, and I certainly don't want them warming up to room temperature. The rising temps can also change humidity levels and further degrade the seeds chances of sprouting.
- Thread starter
- #158
Yuk!
Three days in and these are the worst looking clones ever. I really didn't expect them to go south this quickly. The best looking of the bunch is the water only one. Kind of surprised. I thought I'd go 7-10 days before possibly seeing anything like this. I'll keep them going just for the exercise but I have very low expectations.
I did start another clone of a The Black seedling I started a few weeks back. I soaked the cut for an hour in my cloning water, scraped it and stuck it in a 2:1 sand:leaf mold mix wetted with the clone water and then domed. I oversaturated the mix and then squeezed out the excess water to give me that "just wrung out sponge" moistness that should be just about perfect.
The outer dome container was filled with a water bath and put on a heat mat which will keep the air super moist. In another day I'll swap out the dome for a similar one, but with vent holes and increase the ventilation for three days at which point I'll take the dome off completely.
#StartingOver
- Thread starter
- #159
Ok, another 4 days in and this experiment is mostly over. The best looking clone is the water only one. Next best is sand/leaf mold, which is barely hanging on. The other two, sand only and sand/worm castings have totally failed, with the worm castings failing first, and within the first few days.
It seems as though the very wet media is no bueno. Kind of surprising since the wettest one, the all-water version, looks the best. But, this is conclusive enough for me that having the pots and media sitting directly in the water bath provides an extremely poor environment to promote rooting.
Maybe rockwool, or vermiculite would work that way, and I've had some success with straight perlite. But, since I want to pot these up in a soil type mix, I'd rather not have them start off with water roots and then have to convert them.
*******
Conversely, the next test is going extremely well as the cut looks as good 4 days in as it did when it was taken. I have a series of domes that I've used that have resolved the lack of humidity issue. Day 1 was a dome with no vent holes, and each subsequent day the number of vent holes has been increased.
We are at the point where I would have removed the domes altogether in the past, so I may try that tomorrow when I can keep an eye on it. I'll still keep it in a water bath on a heat mat to keep the proximate humidity up, but this test has an outer cup to separate the water from the container I have the cut and mix in.
I'm hoping this will solve my low winter humidity issues enough to clone reliably in this drier winter season.
It seems as though the very wet media is no bueno. Kind of surprising since the wettest one, the all-water version, looks the best. But, this is conclusive enough for me that having the pots and media sitting directly in the water bath provides an extremely poor environment to promote rooting.
Maybe rockwool, or vermiculite would work that way, and I've had some success with straight perlite. But, since I want to pot these up in a soil type mix, I'd rather not have them start off with water roots and then have to convert them.
*******
Conversely, the next test is going extremely well as the cut looks as good 4 days in as it did when it was taken. I have a series of domes that I've used that have resolved the lack of humidity issue. Day 1 was a dome with no vent holes, and each subsequent day the number of vent holes has been increased.
We are at the point where I would have removed the domes altogether in the past, so I may try that tomorrow when I can keep an eye on it. I'll still keep it in a water bath on a heat mat to keep the proximate humidity up, but this test has an outer cup to separate the water from the container I have the cut and mix in.
I'm hoping this will solve my low winter humidity issues enough to clone reliably in this drier winter season.
- Thread starter
- #160
Day 12 and still no roots but the cut looks as good as the day it was taken. As good, that is, aside from a bit of fading of the nice green leaf color in the last couple of days which I take as a good sign that things are starting to happen down below. It usually takes me 15 to 20 days to show roots since I don't use any traditional rooting hormones, so it should be any day now!
As for the other, original, experiment, I went o-fer. The water only was the last to go and succumbed to water slime even though I changed out the water every couple of days. But, it's all good. I've learned a way that doesn't work for me and can cross that one off my list.
On the other hand, the second experiment has the clone looking the best of any I've done to date, so super promising. Still need to get roots though. There are no style points for looks. The only thing that counts is roots on the stem.
Still, it looks promising enough that I'm going to build a larger version for my 8-holer popsicle cloner. And when I say build, I mean find a bunch of matching Tupperware-like containers that are big enough to surround the popsicle mold with extra room to spare and then poke a bunch of holes in some.
I'll have a bottom and four tops. The first top with no holes, and the other three with an increasing number of holes down low. These act much like the top vents on the commercial cloning boxes that you can dial open gradually. I tried propping the lid up in gradients but it was too much of a hassle, so in this latest round I used a series of salsa containers surrounding a four ounce yogurt cup to hold the cut and it seems to be working out great.
I think the holes down low may be better than a top vent since the general air under the dome is still very humid but that air closer to the clone is subject to more and more outside air, and therefore provides for a gradual hardening off. At least that's my theory.
The cut mix also seems to be quite good, a 2:1 mix of sand and my ALM (aged leaf mold). This was over saturated, then squeezed out and stuck in the cup. I bottom watered once around day 8, and misted again today, D12.
The outer shell holds water which is warmed by the heat mat which then covers the top dome with mist, except for a little area around the holes. Pretty interesting. And the more holes, the larger the dry area at the bottom of the top dome and presumably in the immediate air. So, the graduated number of holes in each subsequent dome gives the effect of a slightly drier environment increasingly similar to the outside air which gradually hardens off the clone. So, four domes, one with no holes, and three with increasing numbers of holes. Each dome gets one day, so by day five the cut is open to the veg space air which currently sits at about 29% rh.
Building it is today's project, and I'll take some new clones of my AC/DC cbd plant to extend and broaden the experiment.
As for the other, original, experiment, I went o-fer. The water only was the last to go and succumbed to water slime even though I changed out the water every couple of days. But, it's all good. I've learned a way that doesn't work for me and can cross that one off my list.
On the other hand, the second experiment has the clone looking the best of any I've done to date, so super promising. Still need to get roots though. There are no style points for looks. The only thing that counts is roots on the stem.
Still, it looks promising enough that I'm going to build a larger version for my 8-holer popsicle cloner. And when I say build, I mean find a bunch of matching Tupperware-like containers that are big enough to surround the popsicle mold with extra room to spare and then poke a bunch of holes in some.
I'll have a bottom and four tops. The first top with no holes, and the other three with an increasing number of holes down low. These act much like the top vents on the commercial cloning boxes that you can dial open gradually. I tried propping the lid up in gradients but it was too much of a hassle, so in this latest round I used a series of salsa containers surrounding a four ounce yogurt cup to hold the cut and it seems to be working out great.
I think the holes down low may be better than a top vent since the general air under the dome is still very humid but that air closer to the clone is subject to more and more outside air, and therefore provides for a gradual hardening off. At least that's my theory.
The cut mix also seems to be quite good, a 2:1 mix of sand and my ALM (aged leaf mold). This was over saturated, then squeezed out and stuck in the cup. I bottom watered once around day 8, and misted again today, D12.
The outer shell holds water which is warmed by the heat mat which then covers the top dome with mist, except for a little area around the holes. Pretty interesting. And the more holes, the larger the dry area at the bottom of the top dome and presumably in the immediate air. So, the graduated number of holes in each subsequent dome gives the effect of a slightly drier environment increasingly similar to the outside air which gradually hardens off the clone. So, four domes, one with no holes, and three with increasing numbers of holes. Each dome gets one day, so by day five the cut is open to the veg space air which currently sits at about 29% rh.
Building it is today's project, and I'll take some new clones of my AC/DC cbd plant to extend and broaden the experiment.
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