Plant Alchemy With KNF: Korean Natural Farming And Jadam

[scottreid1966]

This spray consists of a mix made with worm castings, Liqui-Dirt, Bio-Clean (a drain/septic field treatment composed of enzymes and bacteria), chitosan (in a clean, inexpensive concentrated liquid form also found at DIY wine stores), aspirin, and pectin enzymes (also purchased at wine store)

I have been having consistant problems with mold since last autum on my inside grows. 2 veg, 2 flower.
Is there a link to the amounts to be added per ingredient? I am fighting WPM and tired of tending to it.

Cheers!

 

[Azimuth]

Hi Azimuth. I'm interested to know how your testing of bio-fungicides went (for powdery mildew). I recall, some months ago, you were looking to motivate growers to report experiences using different White Powdery Mildew (WPM) sprays, in particular bioactive ones. I have a real problem with the fungi in my grow room, no amount of disinfection nor cleanliness appears to wipe it out, as it always shows up on my plants regardless, so I've been managing the issue with UV lights (weak, 385nm UV LEDs installed in my main light fixture) and I have experimented with a number of different solutions.

I have found two different mixed solutions that work extremely well, keeping WPM at bay for weeks before a new application is required. It has to be said off the top however that pruning your plants so that enough airflow takes place around the base of the plant and everywhere else is extremely important to successful management. I lollipop plants for this reason.

I've been reading a lot of research papers on WPM control and learned that a number of different species are responsible and that different species react differently to the various control measures available, specifically to the different bio-acids.

Sometimes, even when I've been controlling in veg, WPM shows up on my plants when they are in flower and this presents a real challenge that has led to my developing two different solutions, one for Veg, and one for Flower.

Unfortunately, the very effective spray I have dev'd for use in Veg doesn't hurt leaves but does damage buds, and thus cannot be used in Flower. It is, however, extremely effective in Veg and quite easy to purchase and make. All it is is a dry mixture of tartaric, malic, and citric acids that is available premixed at wine-supply shops, and is quite inexpensive. When mixed at 2-3 grams per litre it is safe for vegging plants and makes short work of WPM. Make sure you are using a good surfactant like Castille soap or yucca (dish soap works too) and it will spread and coat nicely. Spray just before lights out or turn lights way, way down for a few hours.

Perhaps most exciting is the development of effective control that can be used in Flower. I had low expectations here as I was told nothing existed for in-flower WPM control. Nonetheless, I feel that what I've worked out is a very effective control and does not harm buds whatsoever.

This spray consists of a mix made with worm castings, Liqui-Dirt, Bio-Clean (a drain/septic field treatment composed of enzymes and bacteria), chitosan (in a clean, inexpensive concentrated liquid form also found at DIY wine stores), aspirin, and pectin enzymes (also purchased at wine store). After 36-48 hours of mixing and aerating the mixture are strained with a coffee filter, then added to a sprayer with some surfactant and applied liberally to plants. It really, really does wipe out and protect against WPM on Flowering cannabis for a minimum of two weeks provided a good surfactant is used, and in my experience does not damage the buds at all. I put a lot of work into this project trying dozens of solutions and destroying more than a few buds.

Wow, thanks ResDog! That sounds very promising. Can you also post this up over in That thread so growers will have another alternative to consider?

The focus on that thread was primarily bud rot but there were some trying it for pm. It was a pretty warm and dry year so I don't think it was a particularly good test environment. For bud rot, I think @danishoes21 probably had the most notable results using a Jadam Willow extract.

But I think the group will give it a go again next year.

 

[Azimuth]

Alright @Gee64 , let's talk leaves.

I have been pretty adamant about keeping my leaf mold fungally based but I've been thinking about what you said about my soil mix and, damn you, you have me rethinking my entire premise.

Although leaf mold is some  really good fungal stuff, I've read that canna actually prefers a more bacterially based mix so, here's what I'm wondering...

Would I be better off splitting my leaf hoard into two different inputs, the first one being broken down by worms for a leaf-based worm castings input, and the second being a more traditional leaf compost using a high N starter like my comfrey?

I'd still add all of my amendments to the worm one to get a very broadly based and powerful input.

The second would give me the carbon input you talk about, and both could be made in a matter of months, rather than years, and might be better for our purposes anyway.

Watcha think??

 

[Gee64]

Alright @Gee64 , let's talk leaves.

I have been pretty adamant about keeping my leaf mold fungally based but I've been thinking about what you said about my soil mix and, damn you, you have me rethinking my entire premise.

Although leaf mold is some  really good fungal stuff, I've read that canna actually prefers a more bacterially based mix so, here's what I'm wondering...

Would I be better off splitting my leaf hoard into two different inputs, the first one being broken down by worms for a leaf-based worm castings input, and the second being a more traditional leaf compost using a high N starter like my comfrey?

I'd still add all of my amendments to the worm one to get a very broadly based and powerful input.

The second would give me the carbon input you talk about, and both could be made in a matter of months, rather than years, and might be better for our purposes anyway.

Watcha think??

Azi I could write you a really long explanation but 1st I need to know you understand carbon. I don't mean that condescendingly at all...sooner or later after calcium is revealed as a tool, it comes to carbon, and everyone gets stumped because carbon, like calcium, has more than one function.

Its not just plant food so...

Carbon has 3 main functions. One is to feed microbes/fungii because they need about 50%-65% of their diet to be carbon. They can't get it from the air like a plant as they are aerobic and need air for O2.

Two is for soil sttructure and plant nutrient. Carbon holds up to 4 times its weight in water and it becomes humate, which is highly sought after colloids, and it helps calcium build the soil structure of hallways etc..

The third is plants can produce their own thru photosynthesis in the form of sugar, which it can and does pump back to the soil as bribery.

If you do understand that then leaves build excellent compost, whether thru a worm farm, or combined with a nitrogen source such as lawn clippings, or left to fully compost as leaf mold.

Lets go with leaf mold. Its fully composted, so all the good soil structure/water retention (humate) stuff plus any minerals and such the leaves had is ready to go...AS PLANT FOOD.

Now when you mix that plant food into your weed soil, you must add carbon again, as the microbes that will breathe out the CO2 that your plant is going to turn into sugars to buy things with, require fresh carbon (now this is where I add coco) and enough to be able to exhale C02 until the end of flower.

So if your leaf mold was mine I would use 25% leaf mold run thru the earth worm bin, 25% coco, or whatever carbon you want to use that isnt composted (but not too dense or it holds too much water), 25% used soil for microbial and fungal innoculation, and 25% perlite to fluff the leafmold ewc.

What you use in place of my coco needs to be figured in by you so if its denser than coco, use less, it won't compost because all your proteins were fully assimillated in the ewc process so it doesn't compost, it gets eaten instead. If you added blood meal then composting would ignite and hog all the carbon and nitrogens buliding more humate, and starving the microbes/fungii and then onto the plant.

Does that help or do you need the long answer?

PS. PH7 is neutral. Fungii are very acidic. About PH4 if they fully dominate a soil so any ph below 7 favors fungii more as it lowers, so 6.2 is just slightly fungal dominant. Slightly acidic. Microbes like slightly acidic. Its all connected.

 

[Azimuth]

Thanks for the intro, but I'd like the long answer. Some of this you've already told me but it takes a while and different presentation angles to sink in sometimes.

I think I follow you so far. I would use leaves of some sort in place of your coco. I was thinking that would be the leaves composted with comfrey/grass clippings etc., but you just said  uncomposted for that part which leaves me a bit confused. So could that just be simply shredded leaves instead of composted leaves?

I thought previously you said to use already composted material so that it doesn't lock up N, but now I'm not sure which it is.

 

[Gee64]

Thanks for the intro, but I'd like the long answer. Some of this you've already told me but it takes a while and different presentation angles to sink in sometimes.

I think I follow you so far. I would use leaves of some sort in place of your coco. I was thinking that would be the leaves composted with comfrey/grass clippings etc., but you just said  uncomposted for that part which leaves me a bit confused. So could that just be simply shredded leaves instead of composted leaves?

I thought previously you said to use already composted material so that it doesn't lock up N, but now I'm not sure which it is.

Uncomposted carbon plus uncomposted protein sources (like bloodmeal or alfalfa meal) will compost. Once the carbon starts to decompose its very similar to a smouldering fire, and it won't quit smouldering until all the carbon is gone, or it runs out of protein and suffocates. So it hogs all nitrogen IN THE SOIL until it finishes burning and becomes finished compost.

Microbes also need uncomposted carbon to eat. As humans we refer to it in our diet as fibre. So if you only use compost, leaf mold included, as your carbon source, all the prime carbon has been used before grow time. There's none left for the microbes.

You need to add fresh uncomposted carbon for the microbes to get their fibre from for the life time of the grow. It won't compost because you aren't adding any greens to burn it. The microbes eat the compost again, plus the minerals, while they are chowing down on the fresh carbon, pooping plant food and exhaling C02 for the plants to get their carbon from.

1/2 part ewc and 1/2 part leaf mold would make 1 nice part compost to be mixed with 1 part fresh carbon, 1 part perlite, and 1 part used soil.

 

[Azimuth]

1/2 part ewc and 1/2 part leaf mold would make 1 nice part compost to be mixed with 1 part fresh carbon, 1 part perlite, and 1 part used soil.

Instead of the 1/2 part leaf mold, would leaf compost be as good or even perhaps better? It would be much quicker to make and be more bacterial than fungal. I can always support the fungi with my FAA instead of trying to build it into the mix.

And for the fresh carbon, I could use chopped up fall leaves?

And I think I get it now. I need both composted and non-composted carbon in my mix for different functions.

This all kind of brings me full circle on the worm castings. I used to add fresh castings as a significant portion of my mix but dropped them just before switching to SIPs because it seemed like I was getting thrips and mites every time I up-potted. I've started drying them a bit and don't seem to have the issue, at least as much.

 

[Azimuth]

Also, does using not quite finished leaf mold in my mix present composting problems in the mix since it might still be "smoldering" as you put it?

 

[Gee64]

Leaf compost is true compost, a mix of greens and browns. Leaf mold is just browns. The compost is always better.

Leaf mold isn't really compost. It is...but its not. Its a soil conditioner. Compost is a food. The beauty is that twice composted food is what the plant really wants so compost that gets eaten again with fresh carbon is the best compost.

Leaf mold helps build the soils structure, but it needs to be finished before being added to the mix or it smolders and hogs nitrogen. It creates beautiful structure when mixed with calcium and water. You will do best with leaf compost and after your mix is blended, add some leaf mold, then a bit more perlite. Not too much mold, its not for food. Too much will hold too much water. You just want enough in the mix to help keep things damp but still airy.

 

[Gee64]

Also, does using not quite finished leaf mold in my mix present composting problems in the mix since it might still be "smoldering" as you put it?

Hard Yes.

 

[Azimuth]

Leaf compost is true compost, a mix of greens and browns. Leaf mold is just browns. The compost is always better.

Leaf mold isn't really compost. It is...but its not. Its a soil conditioner. Compost is a food. The beauty is that twice composted food is what the plant really wants so compost that gets eaten again with fresh carbon is the best compost.

Leaf mold helps build the soils structure, but it needs to be finished before being added to the mix or it smolders and hogs nitrogen. It creates beautiful structure when mixed with calcium and water. You will do best with leaf compost and after your mix is blended, add some leaf mold, then a bit more perlite. Not too much its not for food. Too much will hold too much water. You just want enough in the mix to help keep things damp but still airy.

Ok, so if my leaf mold is not fully finished it sounds like I'd be better off instead adding chopped up fall leaves that have not started breaking down as the added carbon piece rather than partially done leaf mold. True?

I do have some leaf mold that I just found that is mostly done, so I could use that for part.

I'll have to think on this and redesign my mix. The N issues started up in my new mix about 6 weeks after up-pot so maybe I'm seeing the nitrogen hog in action.

 

[Gee64]

Ok, so if my leaf mold is not fully finished it sounds like I'd be better off instead adding chopped up fall leaves that have not started breaking down as the added carbon piece rather than partially done leaf mold. True?

Yes true, but you have already added leaves once to the overall mix so why not use a different carbon source here or at least different types of leaves. Again... I choose coco as it has great potassium, but you are already pretty custom, so choose any carbon that adds trace ammendment variety.

I do have some leaf mold that I just found that is mostly done, so I could use that for part.

Make sure its finished or grief will follow. Better without than unfinished.

I'll have to think on this and redesign my mix. The N issues started up in my new mix about 6 weeks after up-pot so maybe I'm seeing the nitrogen hog in action.

You are.

 

[Gee64]

All of this is why I like fish fertilizer.

It should hot compost with all the coco but fungus loves it more and hogs it before it can compost.

Its got tons of proteins and enzymes like kelp meals etc, but won't ignite the carbon like meals do.

 

[Azimuth]

I'm thinking about eliminating the 3 part leaf mold component and replacing it with leaf compost, leaf based worm castings, and dry, chopped up fall leaves. Yes, I know all leaf based.

How about dried canna thinnings/trimmings, or are they too N heavy to help the way I want?

 

[Gee64]

But the right amount of finished leaf mold will give your soil a really good tilth. Really Good. Then all your potions will work quicker, faster, and with less, If you ever need any of them. The Fish Aminos one... hehehe... thats a beauty.

 

[Azimuth]

But the right amount of finished leaf mold will give your soil a really good tilth. Really Good. Then all your potions will work quicker, faster, and with less, If you ever need any of them. The Fish Aminos one... hehehe... thats a beauty.

My challenge is the time it takes to make fully finished leaf mold. Perhaps I can find a way to speed it up a bit. But in the meantime I'll have to use something with a shorter completion cycle. Plus, it sounds like the other things bring more to the table.

 

[Gee64]

All carbons have a rating. The higher the rating the denser the carbon. Leaves are about a 75 I think, with wood being densest at about 130, if I recall.

Anyways leaves are a bit too dense to be a fresh source of carbon in a mix as they break down too slow.

Great outdoors though. The best.

Again lol, coco was perfect. I think it was a 50. Its density is why I chose it. All the K was a bonus.

 

[Gee64]

My challenge is the time it takes to make fully finished leaf mold. Perhaps I can find a way to speed it up a bit. But in the meantime I'll have to use something with a shorter completion cycle. Plus, it sounds like the other things bring more to the table.

Its worth the wait, its just not a carbon source like you thought.

Its what Old Growth Forests are made of.

The tilth value it has is unparalelled. Its worth the wait. I'm jealous.

 

[Gee64]

Now go reread old recipes and mixes with this in mind.

Don't get too caught up in the amendments as you can add them all in the composting or ewc process in any amounts of whatever you like.

Look at the bigger pieces like compost plus fresh carbon plus used soil plus perlite. (or other areation)

If those are balanced the guy who made the recipe probably knew what he was doing.

 

[Azimuth]

Its worth the wait, its just not a carbon source like you thought.

Its what Old Growth Forests are made of.

The tilth value it has is unparalelled. Its worth the wait. I'm jealous.

Ok, so just put the grow on hold for a while to let it finish?

Anyways leaves are a bit too dense to be a fresh source of carbon in a mix as they break down too slow.

I can use coco as the fresh carbon source, I was just trying to use inputs more local to me. What else are options (knowing coco is the best)?