Plant Alchemy With KNF: Korean Natural Farming And Jadam

[Bode]

Highya Azimuth, Gee, guys,

All this talk of nutrients and breaking them down is very interesting. What if all the inputs (cannabis debris, leaves comfrey, nettles, horsetail, etc.) were fed to the worm bin? Do the worms create a product that doesn't need more nitrogen to break down the matter anymore? Seems like a bigger worm farm would solve all these things. Happy Smokin'

 

[Gee64]

I'd rather not take extraordinary measures on the main pile of leaf mold, but would mixing up a smaller batch of my mix with a bit of blood meal and then let that sit for a few weeks accomplish the task?

And, if so, how much blood meal would be added if I make, say, a two gallon batch?

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I'm pretty disappointed with the fact that it's a male. That is (soon to be was) a beautiful plant, well supercropped so it was nice and level and nicely filled half the flower space. I'm tempted to let it go and collect the pollen and probably would do so if the other plant was a week further along, but alas, the timing isn't going to work out. I've got a couple of clones of it so maybe I'll keep one of those going and use it for pollen later when I can better control the timing.

Im not sure how much blood meal to add but any high nitro source will speed up decomposition and quite possibly get very hot. I certainly wouldnt risk it all though. I guess start another grow and see if the nitro def still pops up. Too bad about the male.

 

[Gee64]

Highya Azimuth, Gee, guys,

All this talk of nutrients and breaking them down is very interesting. What if all the inputs (cannabis debris, leaves comfrey, nettles, horsetail, etc.) were fed to the worm bin? Do the worms create a product that doesn't need more nitrogen to break down the matter anymore? Seems like a bigger worm farm would solve all these things. Happy Smokin'

They do break it down but I get where Azi is going here. Properly decomposed leaf mold is like the holy grail of carbon.

 

[Gee64]

My leaf mold is minimum 2 years old and dark and crumbly, but not quite the humus texture that would be ideal.

I use my own 8 part soil mix:
3P Aged Leaf Mold
1P Used Soil
2P Perlite or Pumice
1P Sand
1P Biochar steeped in Worm Castings JLF

And to that I add in my bug mix (meals of crustacean, neem, karanja) and my mineral mix (azomite, gypsum, oyster shell, and dusts of sand, stone and char).

If you upped your worm casting parts to 3 parts the extra EWC may negate your nitro def. 3 1/2 parts ewc if you want really good carbs to protein ratio

You may need to add a bit more perlite.

Leaf mold is high in carbon and minerals but low in proteins, its a carb. Proteins are nitrogens.

Ewc is high in proteins and carbs. Doubling EWC to 2 parts would probably work but I think 3 at least as leaves are potent, I always match compost to carbon 1:1.

When I look at your mix from my point of view, and its an uneducated one in your style, your mix says high carb- low protein to me.

If you just sent me out in your yard to build with what you have and my limited knowledge of your style, my basics would tell me more compost (ewc) and more oxygen (perlite) and everything else the same.

If your ewc is 2/3 carbon (2 parts brown, 1 part green) and your leaf mold is 100% carbon, then equal parts ewc and leaf mold work out to 80% carbon before perlite and sand are added, but your meals are dense proteins so that should sway it closer to 2:1 carbs to proteins.

Thats still a wee tad light on proteins as leaves are a dense carbon that holds a lot of water but its in the ballpark and if you want left over carbon in your used soil you should still have about 15% left over.

Try 1 pot with extra ewc and perlite and see how it goes.

 

[Gee64]

Azi I just read your Crumble post. Great stuff. Very good ingredients

Have you ever tried running the crumble thru your worm farm 1st with some leaves, and then topdressing it?

All its goodness would be more bio-available, as undecomposed crumble (high protein stuff) could easily bind with uncomposted carbon in your soil instead of feeding the plants.

EWC locks the proteins as plant foods and not carbon burners.

 

[Bode]

That was basically the same question I asked above, lol! Happy Smokin'

 

[Azimuth]

Azi I just read your Crumble post. Great stuff. Very good ingredients

Have you ever tried running the crumble thru your worm farm 1st with some leaves, and then topdressing it?

All its goodness would be more bio-available, as undecomposed crumble (high protein stuff) could easily bind with uncomposted carbon in your soil instead of feeding the plants.

EWC locks the proteins as plant foods and not carbon burners.

I mainly topdress with the crumbles or make JLFs with them as opposed to adding them into the mix, same as I would do with blood meal. I assume there isn't the heating of the mix itself using it that way?

 

[Gee64]

I mainly topdress with the crumbles or make JLFs with them as opposed to adding them into the mix, same as I would do with blood meal. I assume there isn't the heating of the mix itself using it that way?

Undecomposed nitrogen will certainly hot compost in your soil so if you have unburned carbon it will react just like putting leaves and crumble in a compost pile.

No carbon and the excess nitro will start to smell like ammonia.

I never add bloodmeal to soil that has or will have a plant in it in the next 30 days.

Bloodmeal is a compostable. Its too hot for roots. It needs to be cooked.

Some or many of your crumble additives may also be too hot and go straight to the carbon to cook and get fixed, not the microbes.

Composting it, or vermicomposting it, turns it into a plant friendly form of nitro, not a compostable form that reacts with raw carbon.

If your carbon isn't fully composted it will hog that nitrogen crumble to compost, instead of letting the microbes fix it. Composting the crumble 1st ensures the plant gets it.

Once that process is finished you have compost thats rich in fixed nitrogen but fairly low in carbon from the decomp process so at the time of planting you add more fresh carbon for the microbes but no fresh raw nitro, such as blood meal. That way it can't compost so the microbes eat it to release CO2.

After composting or cooking is finished then its ready for the plant.

Nitrogen from atmosphere goes through a microbe to get fixed.

Pretty much only legumes can fix their own nitro directly.

 

[Azimuth]

Undecomposed nitrogen will certainly hot compost in your soil so if you have unburned carbon it will react just like putting leaves and crumble in a compost pile.

No carbon and the excess nitro will start to smell like ammonia.

I never add bloodmeal to soil that has or will have a plant in it in the next 30 days.

Bloodmeal is a compostable. Its too hot for roots. It needs to be cooked.

Some or many of your crumble additives may also be too hot and go straight to the carbon to cook and get fixed, not the microbes.

Composting it, or vermicomposting it, turns it into a plant friendly form of nitro, not a compostable form that reacts with raw carbon.

If your carbon isn't fully composted it will hog that nitrogen crumble to compost, instead of letting the microbes fix it. Composting the crumble 1st ensures the plant gets it.

Once that process is finished you have compost thats rich in fixed nitrogen but fairly low in carbon from the decomp process so at the time of planting you add more fresh carbon for the microbes but no fresh raw nitro, such as blood meal. That way it can't compost so the microbes eat it to release CO2.

After composting or cooking is finished then its ready for the plant.

Nitrogen from atmosphere goes through a microbe to get fixed.

Pretty much only legumes can fix their own nitro directly.

Ok, thanks. I've started running everything through the worm bin but the first output from that process is still a couple of months out. Hopefully once that gets into full swing I can just use the castings themselves as my nute input.

Given the size of my pots I'll probably still have to topdress with the castings on some regular schedule, like every couple of weeks, but that would be pretty simple to do if it worked.

 

[Gee64]

Ok, thanks. I've started running everything through the worm bin but the first output from that process is still a couple of months out. Hopefully once that gets into full swing I can just use the castings themselves as my nute input.

Given the size of my pots I'll probably still have to topdress with the castings on some regular schedule, like every couple of weeks, but that would be pretty simple to do if it worked.

Your flower crumble would likely make fantastic ewc for your flower pots. Your veg crumble likely the same for veg pots.

 

[Gee64]

Ok, thanks. I've started running everything through the worm bin but the first output from that process is still a couple of months out. Hopefully once that gets into full swing I can just use the castings themselves as my nute input.

Given the size of my pots I'll probably still have to topdress with the castings on some regular schedule, like every couple of weeks, but that would be pretty simple to do if it worked.

Even in my 10gals I still add ewc about every 2 weeks. I add quite a bit, probably 2 solo cups at a time but in small pots you would add less, and every plant uses it at different speeds but you get a feel for it. As soon as they look less than 100% you add more. Watching the praying tells alot.

 

[Azimuth]

Ok. I'm on a three week cycle between castings, my bug mix and malted barley.

 

[Azimuth]

Hey @Gee64 , given that P needs to be already in the soil and pretty well broken down for the plant to accesss it in flower, I'm wondering if there would really be any significant advantage to run a separate worm bin for flower inputs rather than just having everything always available for the plant to choose from.

I've been thinking about starting a special worm bin using mostly fruits and flowers as inputs and then using that output after flip, but I'm starting to think that is probably not necessary.

Your thoughts?

 

[Gee64]

Hey @Gee64 , given that P needs to be already in the soil and pretty well broken down for the plant to accesss it in flower, I'm wondering if there would really be any significant advantage to run a separate worm bin for flower inputs rather than just having everything always available for the plant to choose from.

I've been thinking about starting a special worm bin using mostly fruits and flowers as inputs and then using that output after flip, but I'm starting to think that is probably not necessary.

Your thoughts?

I think its a fantastic idea. Personally I only use 1 mix, well 2 if you count clone mix.

My only potting mix is flower soil.

The only "Veg" in my routine is 1 veg spike. I use 3 flower spikes.

You may have heard it mentioned that flowered plant tissue doesn't really contain significantly more P than veg plant tissue and that is because P has a job that is a little different than most nutrients.

I'm not going to say P isn't a nutrient because plants do consume it, and its in every cell but what it really does is transport other nutrients.

Most of the P you use over a plants life travels around carrying minerals.
In flower you need a fair bit more as the plant eats a lot.

To make sure I have enough available phosphorus in flower, I want as much as I can get so I start my seedlings in flower soil and transplant to 10gal flower pots.

Sometimes, like with my Durban, I get better roots by uppotting to 2gals, then 10gals, but always in flower soil.

In our gardens do we dig up tomato plants on August 1st and transplant them to a "flower" garden?

That makes no sense to me, but then again I'm me. I make a lot of people scratch their head lol.

I would love to feed your "flower" ewc to my plants.

I'm a plant eater and I prefer good, health rich, organically grown veggies, so my ewc has good organic inputs but its broad spectrum.

I think a more "flower" ewc would be really cool.

I don't bring outdoors inside tho and my worm farm is inside so I will never know.

 

[Azimuth]

I think its a fantastic idea. Personally I only use 1 mix, well 2 if you count clone mix.

Which is, one combined worm bin, or two separate ones? And if two separate ones, I'm assuming the flower bin would also have veg inputs as well? Or maybe use some of both castings when applying in flower...

To make sure I have enough available phosphorus in flower, I want as much as I can get so I start my seedlings in flower soil and transplant to 10gal flower pots.

This suggests one bin to me since it would be good to have the P available early.

I would love to feed your "flower" ewc to my plants.

This suggests two bins, the second specializing in the flower inputs.

 

[Gee64]

Which is, one combined worm bin, or two separate ones? And if two separate ones, I'm assuming the flower bin would also have veg inputs as well? Or maybe use some of both castings when applying in flower...


This suggests one bin to me since it would be good to have the P available early.


This suggests two bins, the second specializing in the flower inputs.

lol Sorry Azi that wasn't really clear.

If you use 2 soils, like most do, or at least 2 different topdressings for veg & flower, then I think one for veg and one for flower is a fantastic idea.

If you use one soil like me, a combined mix is probably best, but a pure flower mix has me curious.

The Rev's soil mix, which got me started, is touted as a flower mix, and one day I came up one 2gal pot short on veg dirt so I used Rev's mix as a veg mix and added veg spikes.

It grew a tad better than my veg mix. I have never looked back since.

I suppose if I put a bunch of time and effort into it, I could come up with a better veg mix, but I like my one mix that I flex with spikes and a bottom nitro dusting.

I don't rely on ewc for its nutrients, although they do have a longterm accumulative effect on my soil, I use them mainly for a good bioavailable calcium source and as a microbial innoculant.

My soil is complete all on its own. I really just want the calcium from the ewc.

I do add a topdressing of high P bat guano in early flower, and its in both my one veg tea and one flower tea.

My science tells me the weed comes out the same with or without the guano topdressing, but I have always done it and don't want to change my mix.

Personally from my point of view, one soil and one full broad spectrum ewc is my choice, but seperate ones for a veg & flower soil system makes sense too.

Sounds like a side-by-side is in your future!


If I were you, and I'm not telling you what to do at all, and I don't know your system at all, but glancing at it, I think your carbon could be better.

By that I mean you should be using fully composted carbon in your mix and then adding fresh carbon at time of planting.

I think your carbon levels are too high and here are my concerns why.

1. Partially decomposed carbon hogs nitro.Period. Its a bio-chemical reaction you can't stop.

2. Fresh carbon gets eaten by a microbe or a fungii as they need about 50% carbon in their diet. This causes them to flourish and breath out fresh CO2.

3. Carbon holds about 4 times its mass in water. Thats a beautiful thing when in balance, but at higher levels, even though your soil doesn't feel too wet as the carbon is storing the water, if that water wasn't there then air would be.

Its a ratio thing. Lose some carbon and the air to water ratio slants in airs favor.

The dry matter of a plant is 47% carbon and 43% oxygen 4% hydrogen, so the air is more important than the water.

Sips adds air and look at what you get. Less carbon will add air yet again.

Also here is how both carbon and nitrogen cycle. When a microbe consumes either, 1/3 goes to the microbe, 1/3 gets fixed into the soil, and 1/3 gets released to atmosphere.

That way a dead tree or fish or a leaf can feed microbes, plants, and put an equal amount into the atmospheric bank, where you will withdraw it during growing.

So all that carbon in your composted leaf matter gets cut to 1/3 its amount as plant food.

That tremendously lowers your carbon ratio in growing season so you need to add more at planting time, but not high nitro ingredients as you don't want the new carbon to compost, you want the microbes to eat it without combining nitro into it.

What nitro is needed, as its always needed, must now come from the air, where you banked it earlier during the cooking stage.

You don't want composting nitro at this point. It should already be in your soil.

Composting nitro is essential too, you can't pull it all from the air or the bank runs dry, and composting nitro brings in and fixes all your proteins you will need later.

Atmospheric nitro powers processes, not feed the plant. Getting it greens you up because processes get increased, not because your plant is eating it.

Thats a bit more than a flower ewc answer but its 4am and I'm lonely.

All that being said, your nutrient soil system caught my eye as one of the coolest and best ones I have seen anyone try, and once its dialed in it could, and likely is, a game changer, so I would love to see you work out the bugs now so I don't have to later.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this but all carbon sources are rated on their density.

Leaves sit right on the line between dense and too dense, but the minerals in them make them the best. (My humble opinion)

They contain more carbon than a lot of other sources so they take longer to fully decompose, and being denser you need less to get enough carbon AND hold the right ratio of water.

 

[Bode]

I would think one worm bin fed different things during veg or flower to coincide with applying the castings to a veg or flower lady.

 

[Gee64]

Highya Azimuth, Gee, guys,

All this talk of nutrients and breaking them down is very interesting. What if all the inputs (cannabis debris, leaves comfrey, nettles, horsetail, etc.) were fed to the worm bin? Do the worms create a product that doesn't need more nitrogen to break down the matter anymore? Seems like a bigger worm farm would solve all these things. Happy Smokin'

Sorry Bode, To answer your question Yes running it thru the worm farm is an excellent way to go. The earths crust is one giant worm bin. If it works for her them I'm all in.

 

[Bode]

The only problem is we're not patient enough with the natural order, so we want bigger colas, more bud. So we augment nature with adding more wormfarms, microbes, nutrients, enzymes, etc. to try for bigger and better. I'm mainly concerned for a way to compost/break down organic material for cannabis plants without needing extra nitrogen for the breakdown process during the grow. I compost outdoors also, just doesn't seem as fast as I'd like. One thing - I put excess JMS solution onto the compost pile and that reduced the size quite a lot. I expect that helped to speed up the the composting process. I haven't tried adding bloodmeal to the compost pile yet, though. Happy Smokin'

 

[Azimuth]

lol Sorry Azi that wasn't really clear.

If you use 2 soils, like most do, or at least 2 different topdressings for veg & flower, then I think one for veg and one for flower is a fantastic idea.

If you use one soil like me, a combined mix is probably best, but a pure flower mix has me curious.

The Rev's soil mix, which got me started, is touted as a flower mix, and one day I came up one 2gal pot short on veg dirt so I used Rev's mix as a veg mix and added veg spikes.

It grew a tad better than my veg mix. I have never looked back since.

I suppose if I put a bunch of time and effort into it, I could come up with a better veg mix, but I like my one mix that I flex with spikes and a bottom nitro dusting.

I don't rely on ewc for its nutrients, although they do have a longterm accumulative effect on my soil, I use them mainly for a good bioavailable calcium source and as a microbial innoculant.

My soil is complete all on its own. I really just want the calcium from the ewc.

I do add a topdressing of high P bat guano in early flower, and its in both my one veg tea and one flower tea.

My science tells me the weed comes out the same with or without the guano topdressing, but I have always done it and don't want to change my mix.

Personally from my point of view, one soil and one full broad spectrum ewc is my choice, but seperate ones for a veg & flower soil system makes sense too.

Sounds like a side-by-side is in your future!


If I were you, and I'm not telling you what to do at all, and I don't know your system at all, but glancing at it, I think your carbon could be better.

By that I mean you should be using fully composted carbon in your mix and then adding fresh carbon at time of planting.

I think your carbon levels are too high and here are my concerns why.

1. Partially decomposed carbon hogs nitro.Period. Its a bio-chemical reaction you can't stop.

2. Fresh carbon gets eaten by a microbe or a fungii as they need about 50% carbon in their diet. This causes them to flourish and breath out fresh CO2.

3. Carbon holds about 4 times its mass in water. Thats a beautiful thing when in balance, but at higher levels, even though your soil doesn't feel too wet as the carbon is storing the water, if that water wasn't there then air would be.

Its a ratio thing. Lose some carbon and the air to water ratio slants in airs favor.

The dry matter of a plant is 47% carbon and 43% oxygen 4% hydrogen, so the air is more important than the water.

Sips adds air and look at what you get. Less carbon will add air yet again.

Also here is how both carbon and nitrogen cycle. When a microbe consumes either, 1/3 goes to the microbe, 1/3 gets fixed into the soil, and 1/3 gets released to atmosphere.

That way a dead tree or fish or a leaf can feed microbes, plants, and put an equal amount into the atmospheric bank, where you will withdraw it during growing.

So all that carbon in your composted leaf matter gets cut to 1/3 its amount as plant food.

That tremendously lowers your carbon ratio in growing season so you need to add more at planting time, but not high nitro ingredients as you don't want the new carbon to compost, you want the microbes to eat it without combining nitro into it.

What nitro is needed, as its always needed, must now come from the air, where you banked it earlier during the cooking stage.

You don't want composting nitro at this point. It should already be in your soil.

Composting nitro is essential too, you can't pull it all from the air or the bank runs dry, and composting nitro brings in and fixes all your proteins you will need later.

Atmospheric nitro powers processes, not feed the plant. Getting it greens you up because processes get increased, not because your plant is eating it.

Thats a bit more than a flower ewc answer but its 4am and I'm lonely.

All that being said, your nutrient soil system caught my eye as one of the coolest and best ones I have seen anyone try, and once its dialed in it could, and likely is, a game changer, so I would love to see you work out the bugs now so I don't have to later.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this but all carbon sources are rated on their density.

Leaves sit right on the line between dense and too dense, but the minerals in them make them the best. (My humble opinion)

They contain more carbon than a lot of other sources so they take longer to fully decompose, and being denser you need less to get enough carbon AND hold the right ratio of water.

Thanks @Gee64 . That's some great info but a lot to digest.

I make each of my Jadam nutes individually and then mix them when I apply them so I can mix and match things in differrent ratios and so could do the same for the veg vs flower castings. It's more a space issue that I'll have to give some thought to.

I add dried leaves when I add my kitchen wastes so they are getting good carbon that way. I don't have enough of my Aged Leaf Mold to use that yet, but I can see where that might be preferable.

Although my leaf mold may not be fully broken down, it is mostly there. I'm going to try a few things to accelerate the natural process without adding nitrogen or other bacterial sources as I want to keep it fungal.

I have to think I'm getting close to my goal of having a sustainable process that I mostly make myself from my backyard plants. Its been kind of fun putting it all together.

I could easily swap out 1 part of the leaf mold for say 1 part castings, which I would also help with aeration down the road as the castings melt away with water, I'd imagine.