Nivana's Chrystal 11 Weeks Into Veg - Advice Welcome!

[Papageno]

LOL...okay today's "lesson"....

1: I do both. I have not yet tried to run just the tea. I was thinking about it next time. I was trying something new this time. I try new things almost every time as there is nearly a limitless way to do things the "right" way. Most people growing weed don't know enough about horticulture to know that. they figure out something that works and stick with it. I know how to make anything work so I try stuff and if it fails I know how (just like in this case) to bring it all the way back from near death. To be direct I tend to use up what I have laying around from my last grow and then when I need something I tend to try new stuff. The truth of the matter is any good grower can make any nute program work. It aint about the brand or the costs it is about the growers skill and knowledge and experience.

My base soil blend has enough nutes to get through veg just fine unless I SCROG and have a long veg. Then I will add some stuff depending on what it looks like. But I try to run on the low side as the organic blend I make runs hot to begin with. So I wont add anything for the first 1-2 months but some cal mag and some silica and some enzymes as my soil has lots of natural bacteria in it. then as I go to bloom I carefully add this tea and maybe some other things depending on how they look. I say this to lots of people but you have to learn to speak cannabis. the plants are talking to you...you just have to learn how to listen.

2: I don't really think any brand is all that special on anything really. I mean go with a known brand not some yahoo Jimbos special from the outhouse behind the feed store. I personally have a bottle of General Organics brand but only because that is what the guy I trust the most handed to me.

3: Well in all honesty they looked just fine before you trimmed them back. All the new growth was looking strong not burned, not underfeed...it looked very good. Old growth is bad and wont heal. Look at the new growth to see what is happening. I suspect we are actually in a good spot right now and can just add some water and wait till next week when things are better anyway. We don't want to burn them. We want to add this tea when they are ready for it. take some pics oof new growth and post it so I can see what is happening.

Yes lets not trim any more until we see a rebound growth happening. We really want to see the lowest branches start to take off then we can take back some top ones again. Slow and steady. I suspect the top ones will take of faster first and when the do you can pinch off the very tips of the top ones to force the growth lower down. When the branches we care about start to grow well and get like 6 inches long we can take off the ones we don't care about.

4: Yes that is basically the same thing. What that is really is just as the label states. Soil is basically broken down organic matter compost. Humis soil is basically very old ancient forest compost. It will be a supper rich near black very fine grain soil as it is soil that has naturally composted very slowly in the arctic over more than a hundred years. Super cool stuff...but also very strong we we use it sparingly.

Good questions unlike some I answered today.

 

[navigator]

good morning V! ok, now it's afternoon...but it was morning when i started...it's been a busy day!

i had all that i needed in house yesterday afternoon to make the tea, but decided to wait until this morning since i'm much better in the morning and figured it would give me all day to stir it!

here are the pictures of each plant...i notice that #4 always needs water ahead of the other 3. it was also the one that had grown the biggest before i "trimmed" them...i took them off the blumats while they are in the ER...what i like about blumats is that each plant takes the water that it needs, rather than waiting on someone to give it water. the thing i don't like about the blumats is that they have to be disconnected from the plant in order for me to mess with them and tend to them.

this is #3 - i never topped it or took clones, so it is the bushiest...

this is #2

this is #4 - the thirsty one!

and #5

and here are all 4 of the patients...

i gave #4 some plain ph'd water this morning to hold it over until tomorrow when it will get the tea.

do you ph the tea before you feed it to the plants?

and i read somewhere that someone said that you should never use ph up and ph down in the same water...that if you go too far with the ph in one direction, you should start over. do you agree?

i really like that you have the knowledge and flexibility to roll with whatever you face in the garden and can recover from near-death! that would be the best way to grow, rather than get your stuff "dialed in" and then be stuck with that process. are there books to read? i've seen where some recommend Teeming With Microbes i'm sure nothing beats ojt!

thank you, again, for taking the time to walk me through this...i'd be lost in the flood, otherwise!

 

[Papageno]

So that tea is looking good. I did one Friday morning and added too much sugar. I never needed to ad any more the whole time and the stuff was almost overflowing. Definitely way over the top of the bucket. I did put in a lot of crab meal so maybe that changed something. The more air you run the faster they will breed and the more bubbling you will get. You are going to love doing this in the future.

So yes you should probably pH it but I don't. Adding direct pH up or Down will kill the bacteria you spent all that time breeding so I like to just add the microbes and then drive it in with pHd solution. Measure the bucket when done and it is probably around 6.8 anyway and is fine. But if it is way off then kind of adjust a smidgen with the drive in water. So if it is like 7.8 tea then drive in with 6.3 since 6.5 is ideal. Do not go as far off as the tea. Do not drive in with water outside of 6.3-6.7.

Yeah not all plats will take up water evenly unless you have them running like twins. what we have here are a bunch of zombies. Some have missing limbs. The one doesn't have a head anymore. So each one is special now.

The easiest thing to do is take some notes and watch it and try to feed different amounts of water so you can feed them together but that also requires a but of knowledge to do correctly and not burn things.

The right thing to do is treat them as individuals and run them each on their own timeline.

this is the bible. It is what I read when I started. It was the only real thing you could find back in the day before the internet. I read it many times. this one is a must read in my opinion. The microb one would be awesome to.

That said it was published before a lot of modern things have been figured out. so it is a very good source for the basics and again a must read but after that you can go learn a lot of new things that are in use nowa days.

I don't think I would use automated watering unless I was going on vacation or away for some serious time. since I can water and walk away for a week it is hard to see the need. Also the best thing for the plant and roots is to completely dry out. you want the plant to show signs of under watering before watering again. this helps for a number of reasons.

You can pH back up after downing too far that isn't a problem. I personally use my silica as UP because it is very alkaline and works very good so I don't even have to have the argument. You can't overdose silica so I carefully down it as my water is about 8.0 out of the tap and if I go too far I give some silica. I use Mad farmers silica.

I didn't always know how to roll with it. I learned. No one is born with the knowledge to grow organically or how to understand roots and soils and photosynthesis. You have to choose. Are you committed to learning this and being the best you can...or are you going to be a follower who just copies what is out there. And my friend... that is the biggest problem with this site. There are a lot of people who are very successful and they really have no idea how they are doing it. They are copying others and following recipes. When they have a problem they cry for help and someone else solves it for them and they continue about their ignorance.

The worst is then they start to give advice saying "this is the best way to do something" not knowing that they are great at one thing but that only works for some people. There are a ton of factors and grow spaces and environmental problems to deal with. So times Hydro is the best option, sometimes soil is the best option...it just depends on many factors. Yesterday a very prominent member here that gets a lot of props and is handing out advice all the time said that growing a plant in soil to get a pound is a stretch. Well sorry bro but if you have patients, a big enough pot, the right type of soil and some knowledge about training or using a SCROG you can grow a plant as big as you want. But this very prominent member who I have caught 4 times this week giving out false information is very respected and requested to solve problems here all the time.

Anyway my philosophy is not to solve problems but to understand what I did to cause it. It is never the plants fault. That is why I get a bit short and smart ass like at times because people are so sure they have done nothing wrong...why is my plant failing? Well because you are a fucking tard and don't know what you are doing. The plant did nothing wrong but tried to respond and deal with your stupid bullshit. Now that is a bit harsh but it is the truth. People think it is like growing a house plant and they can put it in the window sill. No shit I see posts like that on here all the time. People have no patients or stamina to go read and learn for themselves anymore. You need to have conversations with people who know,... not take direction and copy. You need to investigate and run experiments. I spent years experimenting with soil blends. So now I know certain things I will not use that others use all the time. People think if they are following the recipe and it fails it isn't their fault...well then who's fault is it? That's why I always say you gotta crawl before you can walk. Once you know how to get a good high potency crop...then lets put it into 6th gear and go for yield and get a pound a plant.

Anyway... anyone can be successful growing weed. It is a lot more important to get an understanding of mother nature and how she works because in an indoor garden you are playing God. The plants work indoors just like outdoors. Your best bet is to understand how nature works and replicate that as best as possible. Plants don't grow in sterile soil.

 

[navigator]

what a great reply...i love it and i am so glad that you are helping me because i want to know like you do. i want to be able to grow good cannabis...really good and all the time with what i have on hand!

i've been using vinegar for ph down and an organic ph up from earth juice...and i follow what you are saying about driving in the tea with water that is ph'd to compensate for the tea...if it is off.

do you try to keep the ph between 6.5 and 7 when growing in soil?

is mad farmers silica the same thing as pro-tekt? they look like basically the same stuff. and do you use silica with every watering?

and what kind of ph meter do you use? i'm frustrated with the blue lab, but it may be my fault for not taking better care of it. i used to just store it in tap water (guy at the grow store said it would be ok), but now i wonder if it is drifting because i did that. it's frustrating because i can check the ph in one reservoir or bucket, then go to another and then go back to the original one and i get different readings...i want ph consistency!

i'm so looking forward to feeding the tea and seeing the results! and you think i can give it to the clones, as well? that is great...

you have named the problems i was having...going from site to site and looking up people's responses to problems, but without knowing them or their philosophy or experience it is so easy and frustrating to get jerked around.

i used to grow in our attic in the early to mid '90's...it was very simple and straighforward...consisting of filling a 5 gallon bucket with soil (used worm casting soil) and putting a seed in it and watering it and putting it under a 400w light. i would grow 2 or 3 at a time and it was an attic with little overhead space, so i just managed to grow enough for us to puff on for fun. i had to quit because of a job. in those days, the only way to be safe was to tell NO ONE, so no one knew....and just because i was paranoid doesn't mean they weren't out to get me...lol.

but this is different. this is for the health and mental well-being of my family in the face of the insanity that our world has become. i'm not looking to make cash flow on this, but i do really enjoy growing the plants...i just have to do it better.

i always seem to go off the rails when they start to show deficiences. and i never know if it's because i under or over fed them. i didn't have a ec meter until just recently. do you use one when growing in soil? i always thought they were for hydro...but then read that it was a good way to know if the nute solution was too strong or not strong enough.

and once they show deficiencies, should they always be flushed? or just if they get too bad?

i just upcanned 6 of the 10 clones and am going to do the other 4 tomorrow. the 6 i did were starting to show stress on their leaves and i know that fresh soil will ease their deficiency because their water is ph'd and they are in the right place regarding temp and humidity, so they must've been hungry...but i can only guess what their deficiency was and i think they had outgrown their pot...anyway, i want to ask you about them...but it would be better if i started another journal for them, right? so things don't get all mucked up between the two grows...let me know what you think, please.

 

[Papageno]

Ideal pH for soil is 6.5 - 7.0 and the way you do that is by always watering with 6.6-6.9 It is not like hydro where you add stuff to change it. You just always add 6.6 and it will be 6.6 ... Now there are some caveats and things I could explain that actually break that rule but we are not there yet You just make sure what you add is 6.7ish all the time and you are golden.

If it gets out of whack then there can be some problems and it can be hard to bring back. So just always water with good water.

In soil Silica takes a while to break down and be accessible for plants. The Microbs help with that so it can take 2 weeks for it to have an impact. I wouldn't do a proper silica treatment faster than that but like I said I do a little here and there just to pH the water. you can't really over do it so it doesn't matter. You are just wasting it at some point.

I think they are the same. Mad Farmers calls out Potash but I thing Pro-Tekt must be using it too. It has a warning about needing pH adjustments so check it out to see if it works as an UP for you.

As far as pH pens go...it is a must. I use this one. They make a cheaper one too. This one has a very well protected probe so you can stir the solution with it and not be worried. The key is as you have experienced...you must buy the storage solution. One bottle will last a life time. Plus you need the calibration fluid and calibrate regularly. Mine does auto-calibration and compensates for the temps when calculating the pH.

So think about what you said about deficiencies. This is some BS you read somewhere that just makes zero sense. If you have an ABUNDANCE problem...or an Infection or Disease or Rot in the soil...then we flush.

If we are deficient then we must ADD something.

That is why understanding what you are looking at matters. many things look alike. Interveinal Chlorosis is the symptom of multiple issues. And there are other problems that look very similar that are the exact opposite where the veins have the lighter color. Easy from a distance to diagnose backwards as I.C.

So before we go off doing things that don't matter or make things worse we want an accurate diagnosis. Once we have confidence in what is wrong...we can't fix it until we know why we went off the rails. People do this all the time. They see you have Nitrogen deficiancy and say add more Nitrogen. They don't see that there are actually 3 deficiencies not one. In that case it is likely that we have a pH problem or and infection or rot preventing any nute uptake. So just adding nitrogen doesn't do squat.

So once you have a good diagnosis of the symptom and a confident understanding of the source then you can decide which of many courses of action may be the best for this problem.


In your case you had some serious problems when we started not just the stretch. You did a flush and everything looked a lot better so you probably had some abundance issues cause severe burn. you may have had whacked pH which did not allow for nutrient uptake or worse caused Lockout. Whatever it was when you flushed you started to get good growth. so you "fixed" it at least temporarily. Now what if the pH was whack because you have rotting material in there. you flushed out a lot of rot and pHd it correctly but the dead material is in there still rotting away. OR maybe you over did the flush and did not drain correctly and the pot stayed wet too long and now we have a new problem.

So whenever we are flushing because of a suspected problem the first things I do is get enzymes in with some beneficial bacteria to get the soil reconditioned and back on track. Just go for it full tilt because it can't hurt, will only help... and you have just carpet boomed the problems that way. So it doesn't matter what was wrong we just fixed it.

After that we wait on the plant to respond to its new soil and wait for rebound. at that time we can decide how to proceed.

You are kind of taking the round about way there but since your flush worked what we are doing now, although supper sweet and great for the plant, may not be all that "necessary". But you are learning crucial skill that will make it so in the future you can solve problems before they get worse.

Doing the right thing is not always the fastest easiest thing. Sometimes doing the right thing is more difficult then say giving up and starting over. If you had not engaged with me and started your next clones you may have done this all over again.

 

[navigator]

good morning, V! you are correct...of course...my initial response to any distress from the plant is to flush it. my thinking is that whatever is wrong (whether it is one nute locking out another or they are hungry or whatever else) will be fixed with a flush and then start over with nutrients. and yes, i picked that up reading all the sites. it is infinitely better to know the plant and how to proceed than to just react with one response to every problem. this is the key:

So once you have a good diagnosis of the symptom and a confident understanding of the source then you can decide which of many courses of action may be the best for this problem.

so! big day today...added another dose of sugar last night and then again this morning...as before i will tell you what i'm going to do so we are clear that i understand...

i'm going to filter the tea 3 times
then i'm going to divvy it up between the 4 plants so here is a question...once it is filtered i could expect to have approximately 5 quarts or so - let's say 20 cups (figuring i lost a quart or so in the tea bubbling process). that would be 5 cups to each plant, or i could give each clone one cup and then each of the four sick ones would get 2.5 cups. i'm such a rookie...nervous about this! don't want to muck it up...what do you think?

once i've put the tea through each pot, then i will chase it with a quart or so of ph adjusted water to neutralize the ph of the tea if it is out of whack and then dump the drainage.

sound about right?
also, i was wondering what you do with the sediment that is left?

and i'm off to filter the tea!

 

[navigator]

duplicate

 

[Papageno]

You can't really screw this up. I would give 2-4 cups to all the plants and give the extra to the sick ones. So if you have a 2 cup measuring cup just dip it out evenly until everyone is happy.

 

[Papageno]

In soil you don't have to worry about filtering it a bunch. Just get the big stuff out.


I throw the remains on my lawn. LOL

 

[navigator]

it's done! each of the 4 plants got 2 1/2 cups of tea then a quart of water and then another cup of tea and another quart of water...it happened that way because, sometimes, i don't count too good....but i figure it'll be ok...lol.

the tea had a ph of 7.4, so i added a bit of vinegar to bring it down to 6.9 and i flushed with water ph'd to 6.5...

i haven't gotten to the clones, yet...it's been a real busy day...the tea should be ok until tomorrow?

i tried to take real clear pictures of each plant so we could see the old growth and new growth as it appears...
here's the tea just before i strained it

and here are the plants...
#5

#4

#3

#2

 

[Papageno]

Tea looks perfect.

So the nutes and stuff it broke down will last but the bacteria will die without and air stone and sugar.

It is so easy to make just make some more. You gotta admit it is kinda fun brewing that up and watching them grow.

So now we sit back until they dry and we will just be adding water with silica and some cal mag and some sugars for the bacteria for a while.


Keep pinching off all the nodes we are going to chop off so all the growth is near the bottom.


That bushy one is gonna be a monster.

Great job!

 

[Papageno]

This is what I am talking about...

I wasted an hour doing this guys research...I did it all using Google...He wont take any of my advice...he will spend a tone of money and crash his grow.

Mixing nutrition lines

 

[Papageno]

so hey have you been throwing in some Cal Mag? it is common to get some calcium or magnesium deficiency after a flush. Make sure you get some of that in there too.

 

[navigator]

so hey have you been throwing in some Cal Mag? it is common to get some calcium or magnesium deficiency after a flush. Make sure you get some of that in there too.

hey yeah! i was gonna ask you about that...i went to the grow store and they had cal mag + and they had cal mag something else and then they had cal mag something else with nitrogen and i just got confused and left, figuring i would ask you if it matters if there is nitrogen or not. i can go back tomorrow and get some, they're about 4 blocks from home. i've never used it, so do i follow the bottle directions?

 

[Papageno]

Well the truth is it matters really what is in your water. Your water may have enough Calcium and magnesium form the tap. Most people do some sort of filtering and then have to add it back. I have near pure water out of my tap so I have to add it. If you are not filtering your water you may not need it but you can't really over do it (calcium and Magnesium..Nitrogen you can over do). So I would consider adding some and watching for the signs. Get some that is just Calcium and Magnesium. Follow directions to add a low dose once every 2 weeks should be fine.


Here is what extreme deficiency looks like.

Calcium leaves little rust colored spots all over. Starts with just a few and turns into this.

Mag is easy to overlook until it is vibrant like this

 

[navigator]

i will get the cal/mag tomorrow...you see...my clones are going to benefit from this process!

looking at the pictures you posted...i think they (the clones) were needing cal mag when i upcanned them on saturday...

my water is 7.0 to 7.5 from the tap...usually 7.1 or so. it doesn't register on the ec stick...it's draining west out of the cascade mountains into my tap...

 

[Papageno]

Okay sweet we live so close to one another. I am on Bull run water straight outta hood.

So proper soil pH is between 6.2 and. Try to water it at 6.5 then you will have the best uptake of nutes and no deficiencies. Calcium is best absorb in that range. if I water strictly from my tap it is too high and I will not absorb enough Calcium.

 

[navigator]

hey V...today i'm upcanning the remaining 4 clones...and giving them all one cup of tea chased by a quart or so of ph'd water...but this what i'm talking about on the ph issue and my ph pen...yesterday, the tea was ph'd to 6.9, but today, when i checked it again, it is reading a ph of 6.3! so i'm giving them one cup of tea and water that is reading a ph of 6.8...but you see why i'm never sure of where i am on the ph field...does your ph pen do stuff like that?

and thank you for the ph charts! it's weird the way it's so different in soil vs hydro. do you prefer to grow in soil or in water? just curious...

our 4 patients are looking good...kinda bright!

 

[Papageno]

Right tool for the job I always say. I grow in both. Each has their merit. I mostly do soil because it is so darn easy. I do Hydro for kicks but I have no need to do hydro. There is a lot of BS about hydro and people do it for the wrong reasons all the time. There are some good reasons for hydro but not really for you. I take it you are a grower for just yourself and maybe close friends. There are also drawbacks to hydro...a lot of them. So I wouldn't do it until you are ready. you want to be a confident grower who knows a lot about general plant health and being a good gardener first. Then you can chuck the garden and be God.

But it wont get you better results and it wont get you as good of results in your first few grows. You will again be learning things.

So anyway doesn't surprise me the tea has gone "bad". I just thought of this... next time take the excess and put it back in the brew bucket and put the air stones back on it and let it keep going. Just add a smidge of sugar and it will just keep brewing. Maybe that will work...

It is so easy and relativity cheap to make i just use what I want and toss the rest.

 

[navigator]

yes, just growing medically for family and close friends. and i'm totally street legal in what i'm doing, so the fear is less...though i doubt it will ever be totally gone...they've done such a good job with their propaganda against the plant.

right now i'm good in dirt...i like to dig in the dirt and i like to plant little seeds and watch them pop up and be transformed into awesome and healthy plants.

i got the cal/mag....the general organics version and no nitrogen...i think that the purity of our water has been working against me...cal/mag deficiencies everywhere! and i got the book you mentioned...and i've got a new ph pen getting delivered today...i just have to know if i'm seeing the correct ph when i check it....and besides, i needed a christmas present or two (or even more) for me! lol...

so lay out the next few days for me when you have time...i know we're waiting for them to dry out...and then we start again with watering in cal/mag and silica and some vf-11? and i've been pinching off their little heads as soon as i see them pop up! lol...

do you silicate your water every time you water?

and if you had a cal/mag deficiency, would you water in cal/mag every time for awhile until you saw improvement? or just give them one dose and then wait to see?