Newbie Grower, Carmen Auto x Diva, Outdoors

[CBDMed]

i've been bitching about it up here in the north as well. don't feel bad. there's loads of products we can't get.
there's a couple loopholes for some stuff. but it's pretty hard otherwise.

@bluter , I hope you can get what you need.
I can order Neem off of Amazon, and locally, so it looks like I will have to stay on top of prevention.

 

[CBDMed]

You should be able to find the malted barley at a beer brewing supply store if you have such a thing down your way.

Also, @Bill284 uses insect frass which is another thing that can help get the insect eating microbes going in your soil.

If you can't find crustacean meal, you could dry and crush the shells of crab, lobster, shrimp, etc. Maybe local restaurants offering seafood could be a source.

Thanks, @Azimuth .
They do things really differently around here. It seems hard to explain. They harvest lots of seafood (and you would think they would harvest lots of seaweed, and crustaceans, etc.), but they don't typically do a lot with manufacturing. (I guess it is a different mindset.) So they export a lot of stuff for processing in other countries.

They clearly have slaughterhouses...but so where is the local blood meal, and bone meal? I have not found it. I will keep looking.

However, I think Neem comes from India (hot, humid country)? They also have hot, humid land here, so maybe I can get some neem seeds, and plant it for long term? It is just a thought at this point.

If I can get settled I will also look for beneficial plants that attract beneficial insects, etc.

 

[CBDMed]

Well, I have a few different batches of Solo cups going at this point.
I think what I need at this point is to nail the "when to water" point for the biggest girls in the Solo cups.
I pulled these out, and compared to an empty, completely dry cup, and I think it is, "Wait another day".
There are some visibly moist patches on one side of the three biggest cups

Tops (minus a few leaves from the leaf miners):

Cup A side 1 (looks dry)

Cup A side 2, small moist patch down low.

Cup B side 1 (seems a little moisture)

Cup B side 2

Cups C side 1 (a little moisture down low)

Cup B side 2

Soo..... do I wait a day?
They are not wilting (and I don't know what the Perfume Pump smells like yet, but I will wait for it).

I have to be gone all day, so I am hoping to come back at 5-6 PM to healthy plants still standing (and if they look a little wilty, then I will know).
It is supposed to be cloudy all day.
(If it was sunny I would water them now, but it it is going to be cloudy, then I think I can wait another day).
(I am hoping @Emilya can weigh in, but I know she is probably busy.)
I have a scale on the way, but it is not here yet.
The cups with girls seem a liiiittle heavier than the bone dry empty cup.

 

[Emilya Green]

Go with your gut feeling... if you think they have water weight, then they probably do. You can't see what the soil looks like in the middle bottom of that cup... I bet there is water in there. Wait another day. As you can see, the plants look happy.

 

[Azimuth]

If it were me I'd probably wait until it wilts so you get a better sense of what's too far.

I'll bet it's longer than you think to get to that point.

 

[CBDMed]

Go with your gut feeling... if you think they have water weight, then they probably do. You can't see what the soil looks like in the middle bottom of that cup... I bet there is water in there. Wait another day. As you can see, the plants look happy.

Ok, thank you, @Emilya .
I just got home, and the plants are fine.

I think I am starting to get a picture.
Thank you very much for helping me get straightened out.
I am feeling very encouraged about everything that was planted in a Solo cup.
I am liking the idea of going with the gut feeling.
It feels like everything is going to go better and better, moving forward.

 

[CBDMed]

If it were me I'd probably wait until it wilts so you get a better sense of what's too far.

I'll bet it's longer than you think to get to that point.

Thanks, @Azimuth . I might do that.
Tomorrow is supposed to be cloudy again.
I might just check them a few times tomorrow for wilt, and see if we can make it another day.
Thanks for the encouragement and help.

 

[CBDMed]

Ok, I went upstairs a little after noon, and it looked like some of the new Sweet Nurse Autos were looking juuuust a little wilty. Not too bad, but they were not lifting up their little arms to the sky in worship and praise like they were before.
I was a little concerned about the yellowing on the leaves.
There are seven in total.

When I lifted them up I could still feel a little of what felt like maybe water weight to me (although maybe it was the weight of the plant?). Only, I could not see ANY condensation on the sides of the pots when I looked, and the soil was mostly the lighter color of the dry soil.

@Emilya said go with my gut feeling, and @Azimuth said to wait until they wilt.
My gut feeling was that if they look juuuust a little wilty, and definitely don't look as perky as the Delicious Candy anymore, then maybe I must be at that point???? (Water stress??)
Because the last time I checked (realistically yesterday morning) they were all lifting their little arms in praise like the Delicious Candy in the 5 gallon, in same potting soil (and now they are not).

So I watered to runoff, and I hope to tuck them back in their little over-pots when I am done posting.
Only, I am a little concerned about the yellowing on the leaves.
Does that only mean that this particular variety (Sweet Nurse Auto) need more Nitrogen, or maybe more Iron?
Or what should I do?
Because the Delicious Candy in the 5 gallon is in the same soil, and it looks all green.

They are just now starting to put out their first pistils.
I fertilized with an alleged root-enhancing organic fertilizer (from Chile) last week, so this time I gave them water.
My new bubbler is here, so I cannot wait for them to drink their little cups dry, so I can ferment the Vegan Bloom formula (whatever it is called).

Also, I ordered 3 gallon fabric pots for the second transplant, but if the little girls are already flowering now, and they have only maybe 60-75 days from soaking the seed to harvest, and I am still in Solo cups, and I don't transplant until I have to water either every day, or every other day, then I am wondering if I am going to make it out of the 1 gallon transplant pots???? Because I planted these girls on 4-19, which is just under a month.

So, I could be completely wrong on this, but I am just wondering, maybe with a regular rootball and regular growing teachniques, an indica auto needs a 3G pot?
But with a much tighter rootball like with Em's procedure, I am starting to wonder if maybe a 1 gallon or 1.25 gallon pot is going to hold it.
Because the roots really are not very developed yet. (This is one I just ran off. You can see that the condensation on the side of the pot has returned.)

But if I am one month in, and the total time from seed to harvest is 60-75 days, and the roots are only that far developed, and I don't transplant out of the Solo cup until the plant drains the water in day or a day or two, then I am thinking a 1 gallon pot would be all I really need????
Or is that wrong?

Here are the two sizes of pots I could find at the local nursery that were about a gallon.
The shape is not my favorite, but this is what they had (and they were cheap).
(I ordered taller and thinner pots from China, but they have not come in yet.)

I think the green one is kind of the upper-limit of size of what I would transplant into.
Is that wrong?
And I will be surprised if the plant outgrows this.

I think the orange one is more the correct size for an up-plant, considering we are almost 30 days in on a 60-75 day time from seed to harvest.
Is that wrong?
(I realize it is not yet time to transplant, but that I need to wait until the plant grows enought to drain the cup in a day or two [at the most]).

This clear-cup thing is a real eye-opener. What goes on under the soil line is NOT what I had thought!

 

[Azimuth]

@Emilya said go with my gut feeling, and @Azimuth said to wait until they wilt.

Only this one time so you can get a feel for the weight when you've gone one day too far. Now you know what a thirsty cup feels like for weight and the goal is to water one day earlier than the wilt day next round.

I was a little concerned about the yellowing on the leaves.

That's the plant confirming it is hungry. See what it looks like in a day or so after feeding.

This clear-cup thing is a real eye-opener. What goes on under the soil line is NOT what I had thought!

Right? I've found it really helps get a feel for the roots.

 

[CBDMed]

Only this one time so you can get a feel for the weight when you've gone one day too far. Now you know what a thirsty cup feels like for weight and the goal is to water one day earlier than the wilt day next round.

Ok, perfect. Thank you, @Azimuth

That's the plant confirming it is hungry. See what it looks like in a day or so after feeding.

Ok, great. Thank you!
But do you mean next week? (Because I just watered with fertilizer last week.)
Or do you mean, they are telling me that they are hungry now, so maybe they are hungrier than average (i.e., good growers), so make them a little tiny splash of something to feed them with today (while they are still soaked), so as to tide them over until next week's regular feeding?

This could be totally wrong, but earlier you referred to an f / f / f / w feeding schedule.
So, it does not have to be every other week? But just like when a child says it is hungry, you feed it?

 

[Azimuth]

I would say they are definitely hungry. If you just watered them today I'd probably give them a bit more with some food in it. If you'd rather not do that you could consider a foliar spray to give them nutrients without wetting the soil.

 

[CBDMed]

Done! Thanks.

 

[CBDMed]

I guess I am a little concerned about my Pink Kush 30:1 seedlings.
One of them was growing good, and I watered her to runoff on 5-9 (fertilizer, 5 days ago).
The other two I watered to runoff on 5-11 (fertilizer, 3 days ago).
I am not sure if they were reaching for the sky before, but now they for sure don't seem to be reaching for the sky.
Instead, 5-9 girl seems decidedly droopy.
Did I perhaps overwater them?

The one on the right is Miss Droopy 5-9 (5 days ago).
The two on the left (top and bottom) were watered with the same fertilizer on 5-11 (3 days ago).

They all have significant water weight and condensation still.
These are three shots of Miss Droopy 5-9, who was watered five days ago. From all three angles, she still seems wet (or at least, very moist).
From this angle you can see roots.

And from this angle you can also see roots (and notice how droopy she is).

But there are no roots from this angle, which seems to illustrate what @Azimuth and @Emilya have been saying about pockets of water hiding.
Would this represent a "pocket of water", because there are no roots in it yet, to drain it?

I hesitate to ask, but did I perhaps give too much water (and water-to-saturation, instead of watering-to-runoff)?

And may I please ask, what are the rules for watering to runoff, again?
(Meaning, if now I perhaps have a much better idea what constitutes the ideal for "dry", then what constitutes the ideal for "wet" (i.e., runoff...).

Thanks.

 

[Azimuth]

Droopy leaves often means not enough oxygen in the root zone and is often seen shortly after watering your plants. Depending on how well your mix drains and oxygen can reinvigorate the roots, you may get droopy leaves for a bit.

So "overwatering" is not really a thing. We call it that but it is really shorthand for a lack of oxygen in the root zone. Most water does not have a super amount of dissolved oxygen in it, so when the water displaces the air in your soil, chances are it doesn't have a lot of O2 in it. As the plant drinks the water the water table in your cup will fall, allowing air into the mix that the roots can then take up.

@Emilya says to think of the soil as a sponge that you are trying to soak with water before it runs out of the drain holes. If you pour water on a dry sponge most of it will run off rather than soak in. Watering the sponge slowly will allow you to put as much water as possible into that sponge before the excess falls through.

Now you have to let the cups dry out, even if it takes a week to ten days. If you don't, the roots will stay too wet and root rot pathogens can take hold and destroy your roots. Your roots are not that strong yet, but will strengthen with each wet/dry cycle and you will be able to see that in the shortening period of days required between waterings.

If you do let them dry out your roots will grow stronger and your plant will be happier. So patience is the name of the game you are playing now. It will give you a good chance to observe and see what you can learn as the plant uses the water.

Things to look for: how does the color of the soil change from top to bottom? How do the roots look? Are they getting more numerous? How do the leaves look? At what point do they start perking up?

Keeping the plants exposed to moving air will help dry them out through transpiration so let them get some breeze or exposure to a gentle fan, and sunlight if you can. Don't keep them cooped up in a tunnel or greenhouse if you have the option.

 

[CBDMed]

Droopy leaves often means not enough oxygen in the root zone and is often seen shortly after watering your plants. Depending on how well your mix drains and oxygen can reinvigorate the roots, you may get droopy leaves for a bit.

Ahh, I am just now remembering, my assistant packed some of the cups, and I felt they were way too tight.
I undid most of them, but I wonder if maybe I did not undo all of them?
Maybe this soil is packed too tightly, and so when it is wet, it does not get air to the roots?
Ohhhhh dear........
If so, then this condition will persist until I up-pot (and maybe even after I up-pot???)?

So "overwatering" is not really a thing. We call it that but it is really shorthand for a lack of oxygen in the root zone. Most water does not have a super amount of dissolved oxygen in it, so when the water displaces the air in your soil, chances are it doesn't have a lot of O2 in it. As the plant drinks the water the water table in your cup will fall, allowing air into the mix that the roots can then take up.

Thank you for that.
So, I have been letting tap water sit out 24 hours in a bucket before I water.
Sometimes the water is there for a few days.
So before I apply said water (whether in fertilizer, or just as water) would be it good to aerate it some?

@Emilya says to think of the soil as a sponge that you are trying to soak with water before it runs out of the drain holes. If you pour water on a dry sponge most of it will run off rather than soak in. Watering the sponge slowly will allow you to put as much water as possible into that sponge before the excess falls through.

That is a great analogy. But if that soil is packed too tight, that isn't going to be good.
Would one modify the watering strategy, based on the possibility that the soil is packed too tight?
Or not really?

Now you have to let the cups dry out, even if it takes a week to ten days. If you don't, the roots will stay too wet and root rot pathogens can take hold and destroy your roots. Your roots are not that strong yet, but will strengthen with each wet/dry cycle and you will be able to see that in the shortening period of days required between waterings.

Got it. I will just let them dry out. Thanks.

If you do let them dry out your roots will grow stronger and your plant will be happier. So patience is the name of the game you are playing now. It will give you a good chance to observe and see what you can learn as the plant uses the water.

I thought it was a great idea to let them just start to droop, so I know how far is too far. That really helped.

Things to look for: how does the color of the soil change from top to bottom?

Yes, I think this is going to be my big indicator, at least until I learn how to tell by weight.

How do the roots look? Are they getting more numerous? How do the leaves look? At what point do they start perking up?

Great idea. Once I can see how the leaves look, that should help.

Keeping the plants exposed to moving air will help dry them out through transpiration so let them get some breeze or exposure to a gentle fan, and sunlight if you can. Don't keep them cooped up in a tunnel or greenhouse if you have the option.

Ok. I have them in a hoop tunnel (greenhouse without doors)
I can take them out of the plastic trays, and set them on the warming pad directly. (It is not hot, just warm.)
I was thinking that they would be exposed to more pests, but if it will help air circulation, I will do that now.

 

[CBDMed]

Hmmm.....
No..... on second thought I need to leave them in that bucket.
They do get quite a bit of air circulation.
If it seems really important I can cut drain holes in the outer Solo cup and the black plastic to match up with the drain holes in the bottom of the inner Solo cup, so that she can breathe better.
Would that seem worth it? (Or not really?)

 

[Azimuth]

If your municipality puts chlorine in your tap water to kill pathogens, letting it sit out 24 hours will help evaporate it from your water and be better for an organic grow. How much better and whether that really matters is up for debate. But oxygenating your water would certainly help. Maybe air stones in the bucket connected to a pump. Necessary? No, but helpful, yes.

Your roots look pretty good to me with the beginnings of some root hairs peeking out. If the soil is too dense it will still work, just not as well as if it had really good structure. You should not change the watering approach. It just might take longer between cycles.

And be sure to harden the plants off if they are not used to being out in the direct sun. Try early morning to start and gradually lengthen the time over several days.

 

[Emilya Green]

yes, if you did not put drain holes in your outer cups, that is part of the problem, the humidity is trapped down there. Definitely let some air get in at the bottom too. You might even want to consider cutting the entire bottom 1/4 inch off of those outer cups. I can't add anything better than what @Azimuth said above, just wait now for them to do what they do. As far as the packed soil, the roots will take care of that and will loosen it up as needed. I pack my soil a bit too... not excessively, but I don't want air pockets in my containers either.

 

[CBDMed]

If your municipality puts chlorine in your tap water to kill pathogens, letting it sit out 24 hours will help evaporate it from your water and be better for an organic grow. How much better and whether that really matters is up for debate. But oxygenating your water would certainly help. Maybe air stones in the bucket connected to a pump. Necessary? No, but helpful, yes.

Your roots look pretty good to me with the beginnings of some root hairs peeking out. If the soil is too dense it will still work, just not as well as if it had really good structure. You should not change the watering approach. It just might take longer between cycles.

And be sure to harden the plants off if they are not used to being out in the direct sun. Try early morning to start and gradually lengthen the time over several days.

Thanks, Azimuth.
I will try to aerate any water going forward.

I let them sprout outdoors, under the hoop tunnel, on a warmer pad. It has been cloudy, so they are ok.

I try to remember to put the top on the plastic tub the first few nights, to maintain higher humidity and warmer temperatures at night while they are sprouting--but other than that, I just leave them out.

 

[CBDMed]

yes, if you did not put drain holes in your outer cups, that is part of the problem, the humidity is trapped down there.

Ahhhh.......
Em to the rescue, again!

Definitely let some air get in at the bottom too. You might even want to consider cutting the entire bottom 1/4 inch off of those outer cups.

Ok, good idea.
It was a good bit of doing (and more waste than I like), but I cut the bottom 1/4" off of the overcups.
Only, then they kept falling down and obscuring the holes, so I had to put a couple of "friction-strips" on the insides of the cups, so that the friction could hold them up.

And, wow!! What a work of art!! (Picasso would be proud? Haha.)

I guess all I can say is that I will try to keep using them as long as I can.

I can't add anything better than what @Azimuth said above, just wait now for them to do what they do. As far as the packed soil, the roots will take care of that and will loosen it up as needed.

Oh, good! Thanks for that.

I pack my soil a bit too... not excessively, but I don't want air pockets in my containers either.

Thank you.