Newbie Grower, Carmen Auto x Diva, Outdoors

[Emilya Green]

One of my favorite sayings:
Patience, above all else. ---Rusty Trichome

 

[CBDMed]

I agree with @Rexer, I’d sit back and watch it for a few days before trying to fix something that may or may not be broken. I see a bunch of pistils mixed in with the leaves, so it could just be transitioning to flower, or it may be reacting to an earlier nute feeding. Give it a couple days and see if it continues or works itself out.

Yeah, @Phytoplankton , good thoughts.
I wonder if maybe that is just the way this girl unfurls?

 

[CBDMed]

You can mix up some nutrients with water in a spray bottle and mist them top and bottom of the leaves and stems (only leaves and stems though, if your soil is already too wet). This can double as an IPM approach as well. I've done Aloe, my Fish Amino Acid, and many of the various ferments I do.

Go very diluted to start and see how they react. Generally you'd dilute by more than half of what you'd apply to the soil for starters. You can do it every day if you want, or even multiple times per day. Just be sure to watch for leaf burning which will tell you you're doing a bit too much.

It's a pretty fast response time as well unlike feeding nutes through the microbes in the soil so this can be a fast response tactic.

Add a few drops of soap to add a bit of insect killing power to the mix.

Thanks, @Azimuth
It seems like they do respond quickly.
Here is how they look this morning (and I just gave them another spritz with IPM, top and bottom).
Some of the color is back in the lower leaves. I guess I will keep going slowly until they either burn, or return to full color?

And here is the poor little girl who was drowning.
She looks a little better, but not that much.
I am guessing the soil is packed way too tight, and like @Emilya says, she will loosen it over time, and dry out a little over time, so I will just watch her, and let her get dry.

Thanks everyone, for your wonderful help.

 

[CBDMed]

@Azimuth , thank you for suggesting that cold might be part of the problem.
I think at the time I said something ignorant, like "Yeah, well, they are part Ruderalis, so they should be able to deal with a little cold", or something like that.
I thought about it a lot more, and yes, it does look like the plants are not really thriving, even with Em's up-potting watering routine. One factor might be this rooting fertilizer. I swapped that out today for the BioNova Veganics Bloom, and we will see if that makes any difference.
But the reality is also that the cooler temperatures may be at least partly to blame--and it is very possible for me to control that factor. I just need to put doors on the greenhouse.

I was able to gather materials already, and now I just need some time to put them together.
It will be a good experiment to see just how much of a difference it makes.

We lose electricity enough that it would be good to use the sun. I just need to boost the temperatures to the ideal range.
Thanks again.

 

[CBDMed]

Hi @Azimuth.
The Delicious Candy in the 5G with boutique soil was juuusssstt starting to wilt, so I tried to remember what the pot felt like (light), and watered her.
Only, what does "to the first signs of runoff" equate to, in a fabric pot?
Does it count if there is a moist patch underneath?

Also, the Delicious Candy has some spotting on the leaves. Is this a case for neem oil? There is a tiny white fly that likes to hang around my garden.

And here are a couple of leaves I removed after pinning her sideways, because they conflicted with bud sites.

Also, does this qualify as foliar feeding burn?

Thank you.

 

[Azimuth]

The Delicious Candy in the 5G with boutique soil was juuusssstt starting to wilt, so I tried to remember what the pot felt like (light), and watered her.
Only, what does "to the first signs of runoff" equate to, in a fabric pot?
Does it count if there is a moist patch underneath?

The wet/dry cycle for canna plants suggests you want to thoroughly wet the medium and then let it throughly dry out. "To runoff" means that the soil can't hold any more water and any additional water you give it runs off out the drainage holes.

It does not mean the first bit of water you see coming out the holes because a lot of mixes become somewhat hydrophobic when they dry out which means they won't easily absorb water at least initially. So, when you water a dry mix, especially one containing peat moss that has been allowed to dry out, much of the initial water will not be absorbed but run straight out the drainage holes through pathways they developed in previous cycles.

So, if you want to get the mix to hold as much water as it is capable of, but it doesn't want to absorb it, what do you do?

One is to water slowly as Emilya does where she waters a little bit, takes a long break, then waters a little bit, takes another break, etc. This is a great way to do it if you have a lot of time to devote to your garden.

If you don't, you could add a wetting agent like aloe or yucca to your water which helps to break the surface tension and gets the water more easily and more quickly absorbed. The aloe also has other great properties and nutrients in it that plants love, so that is a great multipurpose addition.

Some gardeners will leave the pot in a saucer that catches the runoff for 10-15 minutes or so to let the soil absorb as much as it can in that time period. Once the time is up the saucer is emptied so that the roots aren't sitting underwater in anaerobic conditions for too long.

Also, the Delicious Candy has some spotting on the leaves. Is this a case for neem oil? There is a tiny white fly that likes to hang around my garden.

Could be bugs. Growing outdoors like you do puts your plants directly into the Great Circle Of Life where things balance each other out, so a periodic IPM (Integrated Pest Management) program is always a best practice. Spraying the plants with a neem oil spray on some routine (maybe weekly if you don't notice pests and every three days if you do) is good to do while in veg. The neem oil can leave a nasty taste so best not to use it on flowering plants. I've taken to adding neem and karanja meals to my mix with good success.

In flower you'd be better off using a true soap instead which you can use right up to harvest.

All that said, I'd bet that you really are looking at a nutrient deficiency, namely calcium. Do you have a cal-mag product you can add? These are typically nutrient hungry plants and you are likely not going to satisfy it with only compost teas unless you are brewing some really rich, multi- ingredient ones.

Many living soil mixes have some sort of a calcium additive in them like crushed shells or dolomite lime, or gypsum, but those are typically long lived amendments that also take a long time for the microbes to break down to be available for you plants.

And here are a couple of leaves I removed after pinning her sideways, because they conflicted with bud sites.

Those little yellow dots are typical of a building calcium deficiency. That deficiency often is seen with a magnesium one which is why there are cal-mag products.

As part of my diy amendments, I have a Water Soluable Calcium solution that I make that is immediately plant available and I add a little bit with almost every watering.

Also, does this qualify as foliar feeding burn?

I'd bet more of a nitrogen deficiency so maybe a good shot of worm castings or blood meal or something high in the first number of the NPK ratio found on most fertilizers..

Assuming you find those things help, it is a sign that you are behind the curve in supplying nutrients. So what are you using to feed to your plants currently?

 

[CBDMed]

The wet/dry cycle for canna plants suggests you want to thoroughly wet the medium and then let it throughly dry out. "To runoff" means that the soil can't hold any more water and any additional water you give it runs off out the drainage holes.

It does not mean the first bit of water you see coming out the holes because a lot of mixes become somewhat hydrophobic when they dry out which means they won't easily absorb water at least initially. So, when you water a dry mix, especially one containing peat moss that has been allowed to dry out, much of the initial water will not be absorbed but run straight out the drainage holes through pathways they developed in previous cycles.

So, if you want to get the mix to hold as much water as it is capable of, but it doesn't want to absorb it, what do you do?

One is to water slowly as Emilya does where she waters a little bit, takes a long break, then waters a little bit, takes another break, etc. This is a great way to do it if you have a lot of time to devote to your garden.

If you don't, you could add a wetting agent like aloe or yucca to your water which helps to break the surface tension and gets the water more easily and more quickly absorbed. The aloe also has other great properties and nutrients in it that plants love, so that is a great multipurpose addition.

Some gardeners will leave the pot in a saucer that catches the runoff for 10-15 minutes or so to let the soil absorb as much as it can in that time period. Once the time is up the saucer is emptied so that the roots aren't sitting underwater in anaerobic conditions for too long.

Thanks. That was very helpful.
Yes, I am trying to start watering super slowly, and give lots of time for anything that is dry to get wet.
Only, I did not know what "the first signs of runoff" looked like in a fabric pot.

However, your point was very well made. After she took the first 2 liters, she left that tiny stain.
Then after you said to water some more, she took another 2 liters (added very slowly), until she started to trickle out the bottom.
So that was a lot of difference! (Double.)

I have a fertilizer question.
Up until now, I had been using a liquid organic rooting fertilizer (basically trying to use it up), but I think that was a mistake.
This time I used the BioNova Bloom. Only, I am a little confused by this whole autoflowing thing. If it blooms while it is growing, then do I give it bloom? Or do I give it grow? Or do I give it some of each????

Well, I gave it bloom, because it is blooming. But if the small girls are having a possible nitrogen deficiency, then should I mix bloom and grow????
Or what formula do I use here?

Could be bugs. Growing outdoors like you do puts your plants directly into the Great Circle Of Life where things balance each other out, so a periodic IPM (Integrated Pest Management) program is always a best practice. Spraying the plants with a neem oil spray on some routine (maybe weekly if you don't notice pests and every three days if you do) is good to do while in veg. The neem oil can leave a nasty taste so best not to use it on flowering plants. I've taken to adding neem and karanja meals to my mix with good success.

I looked before for neem meal and karanja cake, and did not find them. But I will keep looking.
It would be great to mix neem and karanja straight in the soil.

In flower you'd be better off using a true soap instead which you can use right up to harvest.

Ok, good to know. Thank you.

All that said, I'd bet that you really are looking at a nutrient deficiency, namely calcium. Do you have a cal-mag product you can add? These are typically nutrient hungry plants and you are likely not going to satisfy it with only compost teas unless you are brewing some really rich, multi- ingredient ones.

Ok, oy, no, I don't have one.
I have Dolomite Lime and egg shell powder mixed into the supersoil, but that is still composting for another month.
I did not think to add any egg shell or Dolomite Lime to the soil in the Solo cups (and you said those take time to break down).
Uff, no, I do not have any CalMag solution (but I would like to).

As part of my diy amendments, I have a Water Soluable Calcium solution that I make that is immediately plant available and I add a little bit with almost every watering.

Ok, I watched most of the video. It looks like it takes a little while to cook, and it also takes him 5-10 days for the extraction?
Ay ay ay, time is at a super-premium for me. If it takes 5-10 days to make, then it would be better for me to buy something.
I looked in the boutique stores in Bogotá, and they have CalMag supplements, but nothing that says "organic."
Do CalMag supplements need to be organic?

I also found one CalMag on Amazon.com that claims to be organic.
It is: EarthPods Premium Concentrated Cal Mag Plus Plant Food Spikes (100 Count) – Easy to Use – Organic Time Release Fertilizer.
Is that better than buying something that does not claim to be organic?
Or are they the same?

I'd bet more of a nitrogen deficiency so maybe a good shot of worm castings or blood meal or something high in the first number of the NPK ratio found on most fertilizers..

Assuming you find those things help, it is a sign that you are behind the curve in supplying nutrients. So what are you using to feed to your plants currently?

Ok, great question.
As mentioned above, I was mistakenly using a liquid organic rooting fertilizer.
I realize now that that was a mistake, so I put on BioNova Bloom.
But if the plants are also deficient in nitrogen, then do I put on Grow?
Or do I mix the two????
Or what does one do with autos??
Thank you.

 

[CBDMed]

It seems I can also get FoxFarm Bush Doctor Cal-Mag - 1 Pint shipped for not too much. It says it is for organics.

>> "OMRI Listed and CDFA Registered for Organic Gardening"

 

[CBDMed]

Ok, one question.
Do we know if it is a calcium or magnesium deficiency?
Because if it is a magnesium deficiency, shouldn't Epsom salts (applied foliarly) clear it up?
Only, how can I tell if it is a caldium or magnesiu deficiency?
(Is there a test I can do?)

(Also, will regular CalMag ruin an organic grow? Or no?)

Thank you.

 

[CBDMed]

I found Roots Organic Liquid CalMag in Colombia, for good numbers.
I will see if I can order some tomorrow.

 

[Emilya Green]

Ok, one question.
Do we know if it is a calcium or magnesium deficiency?
Because if it is a magnesium deficiency, shouldn't Epsom salts (applied foliarly) clear it up?
Only, how can I tell if it is a caldium or magnesiu deficiency?
(Is there a test I can do?)

(Also, will regular CalMag ruin an organic grow? Or no?)

Thank you.

calcium is not mobile within the plants, so deficiencies of calcium show up as dots on the upper leaves. Magnesium is semi-mobile inside of the plant, so the plant can store it in the lower and middle leaves and call on those reserves when the upper growth needs it, so magnesium deficiencies show up as dead regions on the lower leaves first, and then it seems to move up into the middle growth.
Regular calmag will not ruin an organic grow... there is nothing there that will put the microbes out of a job or kill them.

 

[Emilya Green]

I know you have found sources for your calmag, but here is how to make a really good calmagphos supplement, out of eggshells.

Emmie's DIY CalMagPhos+ From Eggshells

This is an awesome product to use during the changeover period from growing to flowering/fruiting on all of your plants. For most of us, by using molasses we are able to get the magnesium that our plants need, but for our calcium needs, most of us have to fall back on a commercial product, and...

www.420magazine.com

 

[Azimuth]

Thanks. That was very helpful.
Yes, I am trying to start watering super slowly, and give lots of time for anything that is dry to get wet.
Only, I did not know what "the first signs of runoff" looked like in a fabric pot.

However, your point was very well made. After she took the first 2 liters, she left that tiny stain.
Then after you said to water some more, she took another 2 liters (added very slowly), until she started to trickle out the bottom.
So that was a lot of difference! (Double.)

And now you've seen the difference between watering to initial run-off, and watering to a proper run-off. It makes a difference since in the first case there are entire large sections of your medium that remain bone dry and unlikely to ever support healthy root growth. By wetting the entire soil mix, the roots can populate the entire pot. Just be sure to let it dry out now to encourage good root growth.

I have a fertilizer question.
Up until now, I had been using a liquid organic rooting fertilizer (basically trying to use it up), but I think that was a mistake.
This time I used the BioNova Bloom. Only, I am a little confused by this whole autoflowing thing. If it blooms while it is growing, then do I give it bloom? Or do I give it grow? Or do I give it some of each????

Well, I gave it bloom, because it is blooming. But if the small girls are having a possible nitrogen deficiency, then should I mix bloom and grow????
Or what formula do I use here?

These comments go a long way to confirming my suspicions about a nitrogen deficiency. Neither rooting nutrients nor flowering nutrients have much nitrogen. Nitrogen helps with the green leafy growth topside which is not what is needed very early on when the plants are trying to build roots. But after this very brief first period you really want a balanced nutrient source that will feed both. So, N, P and K, plus a bunch of other things like the calcium, magnesium, iron, sulfer, and a bunch of other micronutrients in very small quantities.

These are really hungry plants, much hungrier than most things you'd grow and need to be provided with those things either in the soil and amendments added to the soil in the case of organic soils, or added as "bottled" nutes in the case of a chemical grow.

You've kind of of put yourself in a bind since going into flower you want to be reducing your nitrogen levels but you're already way behind the curve in terms of your nutrient load in your mix.

Ideally you'd have really healthy green plants going into flower that will allow you to cut back on the nitrogen which your flowering nutes do automatically for you.

If it were my plant I would give it a growth nutrient like I mentioned previously (worm castings if you can source them, or blood meal or something high in the first number of the NPK listed on bottled or bagged nutes. Once the plant greens up you can provide the flowering nutrients which are less N and more P and K, but right now yuou have to right the ship as she is listing badly to port!

Ok, oy, no, I don't have one.
I have Dolomite Lime and egg shell powder mixed into the supersoil, but that is still composting for another month.
I did not think to add any egg shell or Dolomite Lime to the soil in the Solo cups (and you said those take time to break down).
Uff, no, I do not have any CalMag solution (but I would like to).

Those things take a while (months) to break down so won't do you much good for your current grow. But they are great for those that reuse their soils since the microbes will break it down over time, and is one reason organic soils can get better over time and multiple cycles.

But that doesn't help you now. You need something that is plant available now and the cal-mag solutions you've found will do the trick.

For future grows using either of the links that Emilya and I provided will give you that plant available calciumt that you can make yourself, plus other things and is a great and effective solution. But as you noted they take several days to prepare so that time needs to be factored in.

As mentioned above, I was mistakenly using a liquid organic rooting fertilizer.
I realize now that that was a mistake, so I put on BioNova Bloom.
But if the plants are also deficient in nitrogen, then do I put on Grow?
Or do I mix the two????
Or what does one do with autos??

Your plant seems early enough in flower that I'd try to correct the nitrogen and calcium deficiencies first.

And, while worm casting can help you resolve the nitrogen issue, it is unlikely that worm castings alone will power your plants through a complete veg cycle (unless you have some really great castings). That means you need something else. Really good compost would be a good source. GeoFlora nutes (both veg and flower) are already premixed to give you the ideal range of nutrients needed and are a super simple product to use as it's basically a top dress of the nutrient every two weeks or so. I think that's the one Emilya uses in her grows to great success. Not sure if they ship to your country though.

 

[CBDMed]

calcium is not mobile within the plants, so deficiencies of calcium show up as dots on the upper leaves. Magnesium is semi-mobile inside of the plant, so the plant can store it in the lower and middle leaves and call on those reserves when the upper growth needs it, so magnesium deficiencies show up as dead regions on the lower leaves first, and then it seems to move up into the middle growth.
Regular calmag will not ruin an organic grow... there is nothing there that will put the microbes out of a job or kill them.

Ahhh, thanks. So it is a calcium deficiency.
Thanks, @Emilya .

 

[CBDMed]

I know you have found sources for your calmag, but here is how to make a really good calmagphos supplement, out of eggshells.

Emmie's DIY CalMagPhos+ From Eggshells

This is an awesome product to use during the changeover period from growing to flowering/fruiting on all of your plants. For most of us, by using molasses we are able to get the magnesium that our plants need, but for our calcium needs, most of us have to fall back on a commercial product, and...

www.420magazine.com

I am a big fan of homemade, and do it yourself. And I like home recycling and green solutions.
I just have one of those schedules. I have to take what precious little time I do have to read your posts!
I can't wait to get time to get back to your coffeeshop thread!

 

[CBDMed]

And now you've seen the difference between watering to initial run-off, and watering to a proper run-off.

Sí.

It makes a difference since in the first case there are entire large sections of your medium that remain bone dry and unlikely to ever support healthy root growth. By wetting the entire soil mix, the roots can populate the entire pot. Just be sure to let it dry out now to encourage good root growth.

Sí.

These comments go a long way to confirming my suspicions about a nitrogen deficiency.

It makes total sense.

Neither rooting nutrients nor flowering nutrients have much nitrogen.

Sí.

Nitrogen helps with the green leafy growth topside which is not what is needed very early on when the plants are trying to build roots. But after this very brief first period you really want a balanced nutrient source that will feed both. So, N, P and K, plus a bunch of other things like the calcium, magnesium, iron, sulfer, and a bunch of other micronutrients in very small quantities.

Got it.
Thank you very much.

These are really hungry plants, much hungrier than most things you'd grow and need to be provided with those things either in the soil and amendments added to the soil in the case of organic soils, or added as "bottled" nutes in the case of a chemical grow.

I can't wait until the Subcool's is ready.

You've kind of of put yourself in a bind since going into flower you want to be reducing your nitrogen levels but you're already way behind the curve in terms of your nutrient load in your mix.

Sí.

Ideally you'd have really healthy green plants going into flower that will allow you to cut back on the nitrogen which your flowering nutes do automatically for you.

Sí.

If it were my plant I would give it a growth nutrient like I mentioned previously (worm castings if you can source them, or blood meal or something high in the first number of the NPK listed on bottled or bagged nutes. Once the plant greens up you can provide the flowering nutrients which are less N and more P and K, but right now yuou have to right the ship as she is listing badly to port!

Great idea! And perfect timing. Thank you.
I have worm castings from before, and the molasses just came in today, so I could do the fermented worm casting tea you mentioned before.
I got the greenhouse doors on, and it is definitely hotter. I had to leave a huge vent space, and still it was 70F this morning, and I have to take both doors off any time the sun is out, so I am just guessing that the Sweet Nurse Autos will be ready for another feeding in maybe +/- 2 days.
Another set of 3 plants will be about a day or two behind them.
So, does planning for two liters/quarts sound about right?
And then if I need more I can mix up something fresh?
About how much worm castings and molasses should I use for two liters of water?

Those things take a while (months) to break down so won't do you much good for your current grow. But they are great for those that reuse their soils since the microbes will break it down over time, and is one reason organic soils can get better over time and multiple cycles.

But that doesn't help you now. You need something that is plant available now and the cal-mag solutions you've found will do the trick.

For future grows using either of the links that Emilya and I provided will give you that plant available calciumt that you can make yourself, plus other things and is a great and effective solution. But as you noted they take several days to prepare so that time needs to be factored in.

Thanks. I love the organic farm lifestyle, but at the moment I have no time.
At the moment I am scrambling, hoping for time in the future to get back to reading @Emilya 's Coffee Shop Thread.
I wanted to look up how much Subcool's she uses in her 1 gallon up-pots.
I am thinking that these first smaller autos may finish out in a nice 1 gallon pot.
Surely they would be bigger right now, if I had been feeding them Grow formula?
(Oy. I will try to do better.)

Your plant seems early enough in flower that I'd try to correct the nitrogen and calcium deficiencies first.

And, while worm casting can help you resolve the nitrogen issue, it is unlikely that worm castings alone will power your plants through a complete veg cycle (unless you have some really great castings). That means you need something else. Really good compost would be a good source.

Ahhh, I also have the kitchen (regular) compost. How much of that would I add?

GeoFlora nutes (both veg and flower) are already premixed to give you the ideal range of nutrients needed and are a super simple product to use as it's basically a top dress of the nutrient every two weeks or so. I think that's the one Emilya uses in her grows to great success. Not sure if they ship to your country though.

I order a box from my reshipper from time to time. It is expensive, but I think I should try it. A topdressing sounds like exactly what I want, at least as long as I am growing in pots (which could potentially be forever, depending).
I ordered the 8lb of veg, and the 4lb of bloom. I will probably pay through the nose for reshipping, so I will do it by postal mail. It takes a couple of months, but is normally much less costly than UPS, FedEx, or DHL.
Anyway, a topdressing sounds great. Thanks for letting me know.

And in the meantime, I will see how we do with the BioNova Grow and Bloom, now that the doors are on the greenhouse (and the winter is almost over, haha).
And then we can use that for a datapoint, so I have something to compare the GeoFlora with.

Only, Subcool's should be ready for the next grow.
But Em gives her 1 gallon up-pots some Subcool's (Purple Cow)? I need to find out from her how much, because Subcool's should be ready in another month.

Thanks for the great advice!

 

[Emilya Green]

Only, Subcool's should be ready for the next grow.
But Em gives her 1 gallon up-pots some Subcool's (Purple Cow)? I need to find out from her how much, because Subcool's should be ready in another month.

the bottom 1/3rd of the container

 

[Azimuth]

I just use the worm castings straight up as a top dressing which I cover with a mulch layer and then water in. If you have enough I'd just do that. Otherwise by brewing a tea you are trying to multiply the microbes in the castings and to do that you need a food source like molasses plus any other nutrients or minerals you want to incorporate. Add all that to your water with an air stone and let it bubble away.

 

[CBDMed]

the bottom 1/3rd of the container

Thank you, @Emilya !

 

[CBDMed]

I just use the worm castings straight up as a top dressing which I cover with a mulch layer and then water in. If you have enough I'd just do that. Otherwise by brewing a tea you are trying to multiply the microbes in the castings and to do that you need a food source like molasses plus any other nutrients or minerals you want to incorporate. Add all that to your water with an air stone and let it bubble away.

Thanks again, @Azimuth !
I am happy to topdress and water in.
Is there a certain thickness for the topdressing?
And what can I use for a mulch? Coco coir??

And if I do not use the molasses to make tea, do I add any to the fertilizer, when I water them next?