Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
lol, that's close
We can move 1000 times faster than our plants, but that doesn't mean that we should. --Sense Emilya 2012
My First Time Growing
- Thread starter Smokeater
- Start date
We can move 1000 times faster than our plants, but that doesn't mean that we should. --Sense Emilya 2012
- Thread starter
- #962
Smokeater
Well-Known Member
I thought that maybe someone was going to discuss watering a bit differently and since I talk on this so often, I was going to give others a chance.
I wrote a little thing on watering that gets passed around a lot, and in there I make fun of what I call knuckle waterers. Mind, I am not making fun of you, for this is a common practice, outside, in the vegetable garden,and the finger in the ground method works well for plants who keep their roots near or along the surface... the problem is that we are growing weeds.
Weeds are different than other plants. They are greedy and more aggressive. They have learned to send their roots deep so that they can access water better than the plants around them. They are designed to withstand drought and adversity and the deep roots allow them to do that. With our weeds, the main roots, the tap and feeder roots, all go deep, seeking water. The bottom of the container and the core of the rootball is where it is all happening, where the big party is... not at the top where your finger is.
So here is your finger, deep... maybe if you have long fingers, 4" into the soil. It may be dry as the sahara up there, and still be quite wet down at the bottom. Why is it at the bottom and not at the top? Gravity. When you saturate the soil, you form what is called a water table, a lake if you will, that rises and falls inside that container. As the plant uses the water, this water table falls, and the diaphragm formed by the surface of the water table forms a suction that pulls oxygen down through the soil. The pH also changes locally as the soil once saturated dries out, and this pH drift allows the salt bonds of the nutrients to break apart to feed the plants.
This wet/dry cycle is critical in a soil container grow, and with a deep rooted weed, we must allow the soil to dry out all the way to the bottom. The proper time to water a weed in soil is when the water table has dropped down to the last inch of the container and 95% of the water is gone. In the core of the root ball and at the bottom and sides and inbetween the roots themselves, it never really dries out because of capillary action, and if it ever did start to get really dry, your plant would wilt to let you know. At this proper point of watering your container will feel as light as a feather... or at least as light as a similar container filled with fresh dry soil. You will wonder how it is that your plant could possibly be happy in a container that dry.
Now when you water, with a truly dry container, it will take a lot more water. Take your time. Your goal is to saturate the soil again, and move that water table all the way back up to the top. This is why dunking was suggested, it is easy to get the correct amount of water that way... saturated. It can be done watering from the top too... it just takes time. Water slowly, small amounts at a time, moving from plant to plant. Watering is an art, and to do it right takes time to allow the water to soak in and saturate the soil.
If you measure how much water your plant takes each time, you will find that as the root system gets stronger, the plant actually starts using more water each time. If you water at sunrise each time, you will also find that your plants can uptake an appreciable amount of water right during the time that you are watering... its all in the timing. You will also find that each time you successfully complete a full wet/dry cycle in your container, your roots grow... and the time between waterings steadily decreases until you reach the equilibrium point where the roots have stopped growing and the plant accepts the container as its final size.
We have discussed this at length in this journal, But what if you can't "lift" the container to check it's weight? I can't lift my buckets without making a run to the emergency room in an ambulance. I am working towards having a timetable I can use by the size of a container. We have also discussed the soaking method, But unfortunately I can't afford to buy a bin big enough to put my buckets in (even if I could lift them) due to a lack of money (people in my line of work don't make a lot of money and even less while on disability, As I have explained before in my journal, I can't afford to spend $5.00 with out saving a while. In fact, I was about to quit my grow a couple weeks after I started because of cost, but a very generous and anonymous donor helped me get some things I needed or I wouldn't have even gotten this far.). I understand what you are saying,PJ has gone in depth about how the root system of this plant works but I don't think your system would work for me because of the problems I mentioned. If you have a solution to any of the problems I have I am very open to it. Thank you for the excellent explanation of the root system, but due to cash and physical restrictions, I'm sort of stuck with the way I am doing it.
But I really appreciate it!
Smokey
BTW, Thank you very much for explaining it to me! And I wanted to be sure to let you know I am NOT asking for donations! It's my responsibility to take care of things and if I can't make it work on my budget, I will have to quit my grow and give up on my major goal of quitting all the schedule 2 narcs my doc has me on. I can totally understand the confusion though as I did just buy some things I needed, but that was only possible because my wife suggested we use our emergency credit card to get these low cost items.
Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
you know those cheapo $6 3-way meters that you can get in the garden section of any hardware store? They typically measure moisture, ph and light intensity. The moisture meter on these things is actually quite handy and a solution to your problem. The moisture meter function is very inaccurate, and it basically has 2 readings.... wet or moist. If you slowly lower the probes into your container (much deeper than your finger could go), when you reach the water table, the meter will peg all the way to the right, indicating wet. Measure where this line is and come back 24 hours later and measure it again. Presto... you now have eyes inside of the container and can track the wet/dry line as it falls. You will know, and will be able to predict with a fair degree of accuracy, when that line will reach the last inch of container.
- Thread starter
- #964
Smokeater
Well-Known Member
That sounds like a plan. Maybe after next month I will have enough saved to get it (I don't want to put anymore on our emergency credit card). But I've never heard of those and will look into it and start saving to get one.
Thank You, that is a great idea!
- Thread starter
- #965
Smokeater
Well-Known Member
Not to be rude, But I took my sleep meds a while ago, and need to log off and go to sleep. I hope yo have a great night. and thanks for the suggestions Emilya. I'll "see" you tomorrow if your around.
Good night
Smokey
Good night
Smokey
Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
not rude at all... this is a forum. Sleep well and we will talk more I am sure and I am sure that others will have comments about our conversation tonight too. See you tomorrow on this insanely active thread.
As soon as I seen your girls I knew they were thirsty Uncle Smokey. Wish I'd been logged in when you posted them, could've saved you a headache. It's not that serious, I let mines go that far on purpose early on sometime forcing the roots to go deep searching for the water.
- Thread starter
- #968
Smokeater
Well-Known Member
Thanks B A R, I appreciate the thought. But I should have known what was up right away. I was taught this one numerous times. PJ and some of the others that were helping me learn about watering drilled this one into my head extremely well. Like I said in a previous post, Before I posted I should have sat and worked the problem thru with my head before I posted anything.
But I had done so many things to the plants yesterday (having my helper move them around, getting the tent up on the table, doing some extra LST {actually it was medium stress training as was pointed out to me because I was able to do it while sitting in a chair and not hurting as much as when the tent was on the floor, I did it a little longer than I should have without realizing it at the time that I was overdoing it to the plants}as well as changing the height of the light when we got the tent up on the table), I guess I just let the way they looked confuse me.
I was never upset about it, (Admittedly, I was worried, but I didn't get upset) just baffled and forgot to work the problem. But, in a way (other than embarrassing myself by posting prematurely) it was an excellent learning experience. I had previously let one of these 2 plants go a long time without water to see how they look when they are really thirsty, but it was still small at the time and I let the size difference surprise me when it happened to the older ones. I'm used to dealing with extremely bad things, but I guess I'm out of practice when it comes to slowing down mentally and working the problem. Completely my fault. But I guarantee it won't happen again! Fortunately, Dennise and a few of the others were on and helped me out. While she was typing a post about them probably being thirsty, I realized the same thing and gave them a little water. I should have just waited until today, but wanted to make them better right away. As it turns out, I'm 90% sure that I forgot to water them this week (I thought I had just forgotten to write it down, but after what happened, I must have just forgot to do it completely)
Thanks for the concern B A R, I appreciate it!
Smokey
G' Morning Smokey. I have some reading to do, busy place last night.
I hope you are doing well and got some sleep. Did the wind calm down? I'm very mild this morning.
BTW, I use a really simple trick to test my soil wetness in the pots. A thin wooden skewer pushed down almost to the bottom, let it sit a few minutes, then pull it out. The soil moisture, if it's there, soaks into the stick and you can see it and feel it. If it comes up dry....some water is needed.
Works well for me, just a different simple method. I can't afford anything more than that.
I hope you are doing well and got some sleep. Did the wind calm down? I'm very mild this morning.
BTW, I use a really simple trick to test my soil wetness in the pots. A thin wooden skewer pushed down almost to the bottom, let it sit a few minutes, then pull it out. The soil moisture, if it's there, soaks into the stick and you can see it and feel it. If it comes up dry....some water is needed.
Works well for me, just a different simple method. I can't afford anything more than that.
The plants had a rough day at the office yesterday, that's all. There is nothing low stress about LST. It's an unfortunate term but we're stuck with it. Top a healthy plant and it does not skip a beat. Paw and pull at a plant a bunch in one go and it looks like it's been through the ringer. They'll bounce right back.
If you think the plants are thirsty but don't have the time or energy to give them the full soaking then hitting them with a small amount of water is the right thing to do. Obviously, the bigger the plants get, the more water they use and the time between full watering becomes shorter. Give 'em a good soak today, Smoke.
If you think the plants are thirsty but don't have the time or energy to give them the full soaking then hitting them with a small amount of water is the right thing to do. Obviously, the bigger the plants get, the more water they use and the time between full watering becomes shorter. Give 'em a good soak today, Smoke.
Remember that heat rises. When the tent was raised off the floor it was lifted into a warmer zone. That's why you're seeing higher temps. The best way to cool it down is raise the speed of the fan. Make sure you have some of the bottom vents on the tent open, preferably ones on the back of the tent or ones on the side that is darkest so you don't let much ambient light in when the plants are sleeping. You can also just keep the room the tent is in a little cooler.
Also, Smokey...I can't remember if it was this journal or another new grower I mentioned it on, but plants will learn when to sleep and wake up with the light schedules. You will notice that they droop a bit just before lights out, half hour or so maybe a little more. They perk back up just before or just after lights on in the morning. It's pretty cool to watch in time lapse.
So, expect that you will see drooping at close to lights out time.
I believe that the heavier droopy you saw yesterday was because they needed water. Don't get too worried when you see that, just give them what they want. These plants can take a LOT of mistakes and thrive on.
So, expect that you will see drooping at close to lights out time.
I believe that the heavier droopy you saw yesterday was because they needed water. Don't get too worried when you see that, just give them what they want. These plants can take a LOT of mistakes and thrive on.
For checking wetness fabric pots have become my absolute favorite. There is no easier test than to place my fingers right under the pots and feel the level of wetness. Sometimes a pot will feel light but when I feel underneath is still fairly wet. When you get to the point that you are saving money they can be an option.
They make transplanting a breeze too because you can just plant the whole pot in the larger one. The roots grow right through. And the amount of air they let through to the roots is amazing.
As far as watering goes Smokey I understand the difficulty in soaking a heavier pot. For me in flower I use 10 gallon fabric pots. To try and lift those is not something I like to do. So I perform a modified soak. I take a small amount of water and slowly pour it all around the top of the pot. Then let that sit a few minutes. It will spread out in the top layer and help prevent the dry cake behavior that makes water run off too fast. After a few minutes I go in again and give a little more. Wait a few minutes and let it soak. Then one more time. Some water comes out the bottom and I let that sit as well for about half an hour. Anything left after that gets sucked out.
They make transplanting a breeze too because you can just plant the whole pot in the larger one. The roots grow right through. And the amount of air they let through to the roots is amazing.
As far as watering goes Smokey I understand the difficulty in soaking a heavier pot. For me in flower I use 10 gallon fabric pots. To try and lift those is not something I like to do. So I perform a modified soak. I take a small amount of water and slowly pour it all around the top of the pot. Then let that sit a few minutes. It will spread out in the top layer and help prevent the dry cake behavior that makes water run off too fast. After a few minutes I go in again and give a little more. Wait a few minutes and let it soak. Then one more time. Some water comes out the bottom and I let that sit as well for about half an hour. Anything left after that gets sucked out.
Once there are four plants in the flower tent it is going to take a lot of water hauling. At 7 pounds a gallon you may want to consider keeping a big bucket near the tent that you can add water to a little at a time so it's handy when you need to water and you can just dipper it out as opposed to going back and forth to the nearest sink. Just a thought for down the road.
As ShiggetyFlips so do I - I check the dampness on the sides of fabric pots.
I also use one of those $6 probes on my small plastic pots in the way described by sensible Emilya.
As PeeJay suggests, I keep two 5-gallon buckets and a plastic cup for dipping near my girls at all times.
But dang, I am a cannafan - that stick idea is simple, yet perfect.
I also use one of those $6 probes on my small plastic pots in the way described by sensible Emilya.
As PeeJay suggests, I keep two 5-gallon buckets and a plastic cup for dipping near my girls at all times.
But dang, I am a cannafan - that stick idea is simple, yet perfect.
The fabric pots are perfect, as ShiggityFlip described. I need to make more. Feeling the side works very well.
Smokey, does your wife like to sew?
Rado, give it a try with the skewers. Let me know how it worked for ya.
Smokey, does your wife like to sew?
Rado, give it a try with the skewers. Let me know how it worked for ya.
I'm chained to a tablet until I get home tomorrow afternoon so I can't do much detailed quoting, etc. I just want to point out that Smokey has been doing an outstanding job with watering by soaking the plants thoroughly when he waters and letting them go dry. He doesn't need to change a thing. Water from the top in stages. Make sure the well drained soil is holding all the water it can. Screw up on the side of letting them get too dry, not of keeping them too wet. Easy money.
ShiggityFlip said during his watering method post:
Here's a neat tip for sucking out the water runoff Smokey. Check your wife's drawers.....err...Kitchen drawers, for a turkey baster. This sucks out water perfectly, and you can just put it back into your water container for later use.
Here's a neat tip for sucking out the water runoff Smokey. Check your wife's drawers.....err...Kitchen drawers, for a turkey baster. This sucks out water perfectly, and you can just put it back into your water container for later use.
- Thread starter
- #979
Smokeater
Well-Known Member
PJ, I'm sorry, I thought I had told you (I must have forgotten). After I used the 10 gallon bin for the seedling mix, I don't have anything to soak them in anymore and ever since I took the handles off the buckets, I can't lift them anymore without hurting myself. I have been waiting until I thought the soil was completely dry before watering them from the top down. I have been writing down the dates and so far I have been watering (average) every 7-8 days, sometimes longer. But this week I didn't write it down and after the plants REALLY wilted last night over the period of 1 hour I realized I must have completely forgotten to water them. My mistake and a lesson I thought I had learned from the time I let the one go until it wilted before watering it.
Last night just surprised me because it happened so fast and on the same day I had done so much with the plants, my helper had to move them around, get the table set up under the tent as well as a little longer LST because I was able to sit without the pain I normally get when I do LST as well as changing the height of the light because when he got the plants back in the tent, I measured the distance between the top of the plants and the lights and since they have grown so much, it was only 11". Denise recommended 18" and I moved the light. Last night in only about an hour or so, they completely wilted and I was just surprised (and a little worried) because I had seen it when they were small, but it looked so different now that they have grown so much, I was surprised. I just got surprised because it happened so fast on a tough day on the plants that I asked for help. I did screw up and gave them each almost a qt. of water instead of doing it the way you have drilled into my head and just wait another day. But they perked up right after and I waited until this morning to do a proper watering. So yeah, last night I made a mistake and learned a valuable lesson that I thought I had down cold.
Just to reiterate, the plants were subjected to several stressor yesterday. When the tent was raised off the floor they experienced higher temperatures than they are used to. The tent pulls in air from the bottom and blows it out the top. The air going in now is probably ~ 4 degrees warmer than air that was being pulled in at floor level. The temps are not too high, but there was a change for them to get used to. Use the speed controller to boost the exhaust fan a bit and open a little more venting at the bottom if temps remain higher than you'd like. Contemplate keeping the whole room a few degrees cooler if that doesn't do the trick.
LST also stresses the plants but they bounce back quickly. Be patient with them and don't over react if they look a little sad after a session.
Smokey's watering technique is solid as evidenced by the strong growth rates he's seeing. Because the plants experienced stress from the environmental change and LST it doesn't make sense to question a watering program that has been very successful and he has a good feel for.
Stockpiling water near the grow might be a good idea so he doesn't have to make multiple trips back and fourth to the tap when it's time to water. Not urgent. Just something to consider.
The turkey baster is a great idea if he ends up with a bunch of water in the drip tray after soaking the plants that doesn'T get drawn back up into the pot within a half hour to an hour after a good though watering.
LST also stresses the plants but they bounce back quickly. Be patient with them and don't over react if they look a little sad after a session.
Smokey's watering technique is solid as evidenced by the strong growth rates he's seeing. Because the plants experienced stress from the environmental change and LST it doesn't make sense to question a watering program that has been very successful and he has a good feel for.
Stockpiling water near the grow might be a good idea so he doesn't have to make multiple trips back and fourth to the tap when it's time to water. Not urgent. Just something to consider.
The turkey baster is a great idea if he ends up with a bunch of water in the drip tray after soaking the plants that doesn'T get drawn back up into the pot within a half hour to an hour after a good though watering.