My First Time Growing

Smoke I assure you that the lights being moved that small a distance and this quickly have made no difference at all... My tent runs as high as 86... I personally don't like it that high but they will grow fine at 86 with fans going... However letting it drop a few degrees is good... Moving your light a few inches is not going to make much difference if any in your temps... They look like it is almost lights out and they are praying as they are supposed to do and I bet in the morning when you check... They need watering... Don't start freaking cause I promise moving the light didn't do any harm....:circle-of-love:
 
I've been shooting for 85 under LED and have been as high as 90 for days on end with no issue. If you had HID lighting you'd want 75. There's a video floating around somewhere that explains it, or I'm sure someone with a better memory will be by to explain the why of it.

What's the situation with fans again? I don't see any in the picture...
 
Smoke I assure you that the lights being moved that small a distance and this quickly have made no difference at all... My tent runs as high as 86... I personally don't like it that high but they will grow fine at 86 with fans going... However letting it drop a few degrees is good... Moving your light a few inches is not going to make much difference if any in your temps... They look like it is almost lights out and they are praying as they are supposed to do and I bet in the morning when you check... They need watering... Don't start freaking cause I promise moving the light didn't do any harm....:circle-of-love:

Thanks Dennise, I appreciate the post. I just thought about the water and gave each of them about a little under a quart. I just watered them on Sunday (I think it was Sunday, May be Monday, I forgot to write it down this week for the first time). I'm definitely not blaming anything on anyone or even the lights. I've just never seen them look this bad and am just a little bit worried about them. I thought I had the watering thing down cold. But maybe not. Either way, I gave them a little water tonight (nothing compared to what they get on watering day) and hope to see them back to normal in the morning. It makes me feel a little better that your not just telling me they are gone. In fact, when I was learning about how to water them, I let one go until it looked like it needed it and thinking back, these look almost the same, just on a bigger scale. I'm not freaking out at all, I was just worried and surprised. If it came off that way, I apologize. I'm not upset in the least. I'm still learning and this is a thing I needed to learn!
 
Gotchya, just making sure there was one.

I agree with Dennise, moving the lights the short distance you did isn't a cause. I think you said you did some low stress training on them today? If so it's not unusual for them to look tired and droopy close to bedtime.

I think the small watering was unnecessary. Aren't we using a soak to full dry at this stage? No real harm done either way.

If you're feeling up to it, can you quickly describe your watering technique for me?

Time to become the instructor again bud! :)
 
Gotchya, just making sure there was one.

I agree with Dennise, moving the lights the short distance you did isn't a cause. I think you said you did some low stress training on them today? If so it's not unusual for them to look tired and droopy close to bedtime.

I think the small watering was unnecessary. Aren't we using a soak to full dry at this stage? No real harm done either way.

If you're feeling up to it, can you quickly describe your watering technique for me?

Time to become the instructor again bud! :)


You may have hit the nail on the head with the LST, take it slow and easy, rub the stems.
 
Gotchya, just making sure there was one.

I agree with Dennise, moving the lights the short distance you did isn't a cause. I think you said you did some low stress training on them today? If so it's not unusual for them to look tired and droopy close to bedtime.

I think the small watering was unnecessary. Aren't we using a soak to full dry at this stage? No real harm done either way.

If you're feeling up to it, can you quickly describe your watering technique for me?

Time to become the instructor again bud! :)

Yes, I did do LST today on them. More than normal in fact because for the first time, I could sit in a chair and do it. As far as the watering goes, I don't do the full soak (like Radogast suggests) because I have nothing big enough to fit the 3 gallon buckets in, to do that. (I also have a problem lifting them and carrying them to the bathroom for it. So I water them slowly from the top, usually giving them each about about 3-4 QT.s of water (Until I have water coming out the bottom consistently). All the while using a 100 cc syringe to suck out the extra water in the bottom plate until the water is done coming out the bottom of the buckets. They are looking better now, but your right, I should have waited until morning, but my old habits of doing things fast is REALLY hard to break. I had to do that for a long time and it's just a part of me now. I am trying to stop but I do that with everything in life, not just the plants. It used to drive my wife nuts. She'd mention that she wants to go to the store today and 10 minutes later, I'm dressed and have my shoes on (and that's a trick in itself with my handicap). She then tells me I'm doing it again and she meant later. But she's pretty much used to it after 30 years of marriage. Now she usually tells me that she wants to "go to the store in a few hours, not right away" (as an example).

But for now, with my budget I just don't have the $$ to buy another bin/bucket, whatever to do the soak watering. Maybe next month, if we have the cash, I'll get something to do it with. I'll have to wait and see if anything comes up around here extra that we didn't plan on.
 
You may have hit the nail on the head with the LST, take it slow and easy, rub the stems.

That is how I do the LST, Today I just did it about 5 minutes longer than normal because i was able to sit for it. But I slowly rub the stalk until I feel it warm up a hair, then I move the stem slowly to where I'm heading with it in small increments. I don't try to get it all the way to where I want it in one sitting, It takes a few days of working it to get it to where I want it. But today, I may have just overdone it because it was the first time I could do it while sitting in a chair as opposed to sitting on the floor and hurting my back. But Thank you very much for the input, I will force myself to slow it down even more regardless of how I'm sitting.
 
I forgot to mention about the watering, I wait for at least 7-8 days and then stick a finger deep into the soil and if it is damp at all, I wait.

lol... at least you go deep. Some only go to their first, others to the second knuckle. Others have scientifically measured it, and go exactly 4cm deep. I anxiously await further comments regarding this and the static 7 or 8 days.
 
lol... at least you go deep. Some only go to their first, others to the second knuckle. Others have scientifically measured it, and go exactly 4cm deep. I anxiously await further comments regarding this and the static 7 or 8 days.

The long time between watering was beaten into my head here, Actually, it's been suggested to wait even longer if the plant is still even a little damp, because these plants grow better in dryer soil because it makes their roots grow to search out the water from other areas.
 
If I sounded alarmed in my initial post, I apologize. I wasn't upset in the least. I'm kind of used to dealing with really bad scenarios. I just typed a lot because I wanted to explain everything in detail so you guys would understand what I was seeing.

PJ even warned me a while ago, that this could happen and I just forgot it for a little bit. But with you guys helping me and giving me suggestions or asking about watering made me remember what PJ had said and you guys helped me to work the problem thru.
 
That is how I do the LST, Today I just did it about 5 minutes longer than normal because i was able to sit for it. But I slowly rub the stalk until I feel it warm up a hair, then I move the stem slowly to where I'm heading with it in small increments. I don't try to get it all the way to where I want it in one sitting, It takes a few days of working it to get it to where I want it. But today, I may have just overdone it because it was the first time I could do it while sitting in a chair as opposed to sitting on the floor and hurting my back. But Thank you very much for the input, I will force myself to slow it down even more regardless of how I'm sitting.

I think the appearance of your plants is the LST, although what you did is more like medium stress training. If you were training by simply pulling a stem partway towards the place you want the stem to go, there would be very little plant reaction. When you rub and warm the stems and pull multiple times, the stress is a bit higher and you will see the leaves complain more. If you go at the stems a little harder, to where there is a noticeable bulge or kink in the stem, you are supercropping and may see the response I see in your photo. A supercropped stem can look as wilted as a broken stem - for several hours.

I don't think you did any lasting harm - tomorrow the wilting of this plant should be gone.
 
Yes, I did do LST today on them. More than normal in fact because for the first time, I could sit in a chair and do it.

SO glad to hear that Smokey, I still remember your first post, seems like a different timeline now, eh? Just incredible how far you've come so quickly.

IMHO, the look of your plants tonight is entirely consistent with a training day when close to dry and close to it's usual dark period. They're a little like teenagers, hormones racing all over, signals all crossed up from not knowing where her top is anymore, all while trying to grow new roots to find some more water.


As far as the watering goes, I don't do the full soak (like Radogast suggested) because I have nothing big enough to fit the 3 gallon buckets in, to do that. So I water them slowly from the top, usually giving them each about about 3-4 QT.s of water (Until I have water coming out the bottom consistently). All the while using a 100 cc syringe to suck the extra water in the bottom plate until the water is done coming out the bottom of the buckets.

We've had to use a pretty similar system, and also don't water to heavy run off. Only difference is when I've had to use a syringe, my biggest is only 60 cc. :)


They are looking better now, but your right, I should have waited until morning, but my old habits of doing things fast is REALLY hard to break. I had to do that for a long time and it's just a part of me now. I am trying to stop but I do that with everything in life, not just the plants. It used to drive my wife nuts. She'd mention that she wants to go to the store today and 10 minutes later, I'm dressed and have my shoes on (and that's a trick in itself with my handicap). She then tells me I'm doing it again and she meant later. But she's pretty much used to it after 30 years of marriage. Now she usually tells me that she wants to "go to the store in a few hours, not right away" (as an example).

LOL, I can see it in my mind's eye. Honestly from your stories you sound more like my parents than my Aunt and Uncle. :)

To poorly paraphrase Emilya, we need to move at the plants speed, which can only be directly observed in time lapse photography.

Glad to hear they're looking better, but even if they weren't I myself wouldn't be at all worried until late into tomorrow.


But for now, with my budget I just don't have the $$ to buy another bin/bucket, whatever to do the soak watering. Maybe next month, if we have the cash, I'll get something to do it with. I'll have to wait and see if anything comes up around here extra that we didn't plan on.

It'd be a "nice to have" thing, not a necessity unless someone more experienced (just about everyone here) tells you differently.


I forgot to mention about the watering, I wait for at least 7-8 days and then stick a finger deep into the soil and if it is damp at all, I wait.

Erg, personally not a fan of the finger method, but until someone can come up with a better system for you I'll defer to what I'm sure you and PeeJay have discussed.

I just worry about affecting her roots, they will fill the entire container and poking a finger into 'em feels wrong to me. Promise me you're at least going straight in and back out again, no diggin' around?


That is how I do the LST, Today I just did it about 5 minutes longer than normal because i was able to sit for it. But I slowly rub the stalk until I feel it warm up a hair, then I move the stem slowly to where I'm heading with it in small increments. I don't try to get it all the way to where I want it in one sitting, It takes a few days of working it to get it to where I want it. But today, I may have just overdone it because it was the first time I could do it while sitting in a chair as opposed to sitting on the floor and hurting my back. But Thank you very much for the input, I will force myself to slow it down even more regardless of how I'm sitting.

I don't think you overdid it, I watched a video of a guy taking a seedling for a freaking jog, damned thing bouncing around like mad for 10 minutes. Two days later it's bolt upright and an order of magnitude stronger.

It may be low stress, but it is still stress on her. She needs it, even if she pouts for a day afterwards. :)


lol... at least you go deep. Some only go to their first, others to the second knuckle. Others have scientifically measured it, and go exactly 4cm deep. I anxiously await further comments regarding this and the static 7 or 8 days.

I want to say something, but I'm guessing you're awaiting Smokey's comments and not mine. hehehe


The long time between watering was beaten into my head here, Actually, it's been suggested to wait even longer if the plant is still even a little damp, because these plants grow better in dryer soil because it makes their roots grow to search out the water from other areas.

If she's still got water, we wait. In veg I wait until she doesn't have any and force her to focus on building roots to try and find some. Again she may not like it, but it's good for her.

Kids of all species, right? Same troubles doing what is best for them vs. doing what they immediately want.


If I sounded alarmed in my initial post, I apologize. I wasn't upset in the least. I'm kind of used to dealing with really bad scenarios. I just typed a lot because I wanted to explain everything in detail so you guys would understand what I was seeing.

There's that Canadian side again... :)

It was the thought and detail that had me praising your posting skills a page back.

Love ya bud.
 
I think the appearance of your plants is the LST, although what you did is more like medium stress training. If you were training by simply pulling a stem partway towards the place you want the stem to go, there would be very little plant reaction. When you rub and warm the stems and pull multiple times, the stress is a bit higher and you will see the leaves complain more. If you go at the stems a little harder, to where there is a noticeable bulge or kink in the stem, you are supercropping and may see the response I see in your photo. A supercropped stem can look as wilted as a broken stem - for several hours.

I don't think you did any lasting harm - tomorrow the wilting of this plant should be gone.

Thanks Radogast, I didn't do any "supercropping", but it probably was medium stress training just because I have to get use to being able to do it now while sitting. I'm not used to being able to do LST while sitting in a chair. In fact, it was so nice, that is probably why I did it longer. Before, when the tent was on the floor, It was a "real pain in my back" LOL, and I'm just going to have to get used to doing it without having to rush because it hurts so bad like it did before. PJ's idea of the table for the tent was brilliant! I'm just going to have to get used to doing it now without it hurting so much. It will just take a little time to get used to.
Thanks Radogast!
 
Erg, personally not a fan of the finger method, but until someone can come up with a better system for you I'll defer to what I'm sure you and PeeJay have discussed.

I just worry about affecting her roots, they will fill the entire container and poking a finger into 'em feels wrong to me. Promise me you're at least going straight in and back out again, no diggin' around?

When I stick my finger in, I do it at the edge and do go straight in and back out. I try to not disturb the roots at all, In fact, I have done it and felt some resistance that I attributed to roots and moved to a different location in the pot. Sorry to have quoted you that way, I just don't know how to quote only a part of a post and not the rest yet.


I want to say something, but I'm guessing you're awaiting Smokey's comments and not mine. hehehe

My mind and yours seem to think the same way. I am always trying to avoid something that would sound "inappropriate".

Thanks again Arteekay, it always helps to add a little fun to the situation!
 
I just got up and checked them again and they look like normal lights out once more. I'm thinking that the reason I didn't write down the watering this week is that maybe I just forgot to do it. I honestly thought I did it on Sunday or Monday, but after what just happened, it's the only conclusion I can come to. I think I may have to do the watering tomorrow since I only gave them a little tonight. I feel so stupid for not thinking about water before I posted. It came to me as Dennise was typing her post about it. I even let one go until it looked like that, but being that was on a tiny scale in comparison to them now, It took a while before it hit me. PJ also told me to wait until it looks droopy and then wait until the next day. But I was just surprised to see them like that after they had grown so much in comparison to when I did it when the one was still small. I guess it's all part of the learning process. I just want to thank all of you again for all the help, I was just baffled at first when I saw them and posted before I sat and thought about it. Another lesson learned.

Thanks all!!!

Smokey
 
I thought that maybe someone was going to discuss watering a bit differently and since I talk on this so often, I was going to give others a chance. :)

I wrote a little thing on watering that gets passed around a lot, and in there I make fun of what I call knuckle waterers. Mind, I am not making fun of you, for this is a common practice, outside, in the vegetable garden,and the finger in the ground method works well for plants who keep their roots near or along the surface... the problem is that we are growing weeds.

Weeds are different than other plants. They are greedy and more aggressive. They have learned to send their roots deep so that they can access water better than the plants around them. They are designed to withstand drought and adversity and the deep roots allow them to do that. With our weeds, the main roots, the tap and feeder roots, all go deep, seeking water. The bottom of the container and the core of the rootball is where it is all happening, where the big party is... not at the top where your finger is.

So here is your finger, deep... maybe if you have long fingers, 4" into the soil. It may be dry as the sahara up there, and still be quite wet down at the bottom. Why is it at the bottom and not at the top? Gravity. When you saturate the soil, you form what is called a water table, a lake if you will, that rises and falls inside that container. As the plant uses the water, this water table falls, and the diaphragm formed by the surface of the water table forms a suction that pulls oxygen down through the soil. The pH also changes locally as the soil once saturated dries out, and this pH drift allows the salt bonds of the nutrients to break apart to feed the plants.

This wet/dry cycle is critical in a soil container grow, and with a deep rooted weed, we must allow the soil to dry out all the way to the bottom. The proper time to water a weed in soil is when the water table has dropped down to the last inch of the container and 95% of the water is gone. In the core of the root ball and at the bottom and sides and inbetween the roots themselves, it never really dries out because of capillary action, and if it ever did start to get really dry, your plant would wilt to let you know. At this proper point of watering your container will feel as light as a feather... or at least as light as a similar container filled with fresh dry soil. You will wonder how it is that your plant could possibly be happy in a container that dry.

Now when you water, with a truly dry container, it will take a lot more water. Take your time. Your goal is to saturate the soil again, and move that water table all the way back up to the top. This is why dunking was suggested, it is easy to get the correct amount of water that way... saturated. It can be done watering from the top too... it just takes time. Water slowly, small amounts at a time, moving from plant to plant. Watering is an art, and to do it right takes time to allow the water to soak in and saturate the soil.

If you measure how much water your plant takes each time, you will find that as the root system gets stronger, the plant actually starts using more water each time. If you water at sunrise each time, you will also find that your plants can uptake an appreciable amount of water right during the time that you are watering... its all in the timing. You will also find that each time you successfully complete a full wet/dry cycle in your container, your roots grow... and the time between waterings steadily decreases until you reach the equilibrium point where the roots have stopped growing and the plant accepts the container as its final size.
 
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