Lootz Returns! Multi-Tent Grow In Soil With LED COBs & LM301H

[Keffka]

This is the truest statement ever! I was just talking about this when someone asked me where I learned to grow.
I may not have all the answers but to someone who knows nothing of it, or admittedly "can't grow a plant to save their life" they listen or watch on in awe as I work in my garden.
I say this same thing "I just read and did."
Ancient people didn't have textbooks or degrees they had shared knowledge and experiences.

Yup! Our species made it pretty far without universities and college rivalries.. We made it pretty far without standardized tests and one size fits all education. Most things don’t need to be as bogged down and red taped as they are, but someone’s always trying to find a way to monetize any thing they can so here we are.

When it comes to growing specifically If it’s good enough for the original agrarians it’s good enough for me. Science has its place in nature and growth, but that’s just it, it’s a place it has. It is not the be all end all or the final say on anything related to growing. It’s a handy tool to have to make life easier.

Now you're talking my language! (NOT)

Lol.. I view it as, we’re growing cannabis ffs.. It doesn’t need to be a James Webb Space Telescope level of technicality. It’s dirt, water, and a handful of mostly poop and dead stuff lol.

 

[Azimuth]

To begin with off the top, chelation and chelates aren’t a bad thing at all. They have many uses, and have the potential to help us remediate the soil in many environments that have toxic levels of metals. They’re also very effective at doing what they’re designed to do. Chelation involves ionic and molecular bonds and a whole bunch of heady chemistry, but we’re gonna simplify that since that’s not very accessible to the average grower.

In its simplest definition, a chelate is a compound that is bonded to a metal atom at two or more points.

For our purposes, it helps to know where the term comes from. First though, it’s pronounced Key-Late. I have a hard time absorbing info if I’m unsure of the pronunciation and it distracts me.

The word chelate is derived from the Greek word for “claw.” This is a useful visualization of a chelate. The chelate bonds itself to a metal atom in a clawlike fashion. The different chelates are typically called chelate agent(s). For us, a chelate is an agent that bonds to a micronutrient, making the micronutrient more readily available for uptake in plant cells. Most of the micronutrients we use in growing aren’t readily available to the plant in their basic form.

This is because metals like iron and zinc have a positive charge, and the pores on our plants where the metals would enter have a negative charge. The positively charged micronutrients cannot enter through the negatively charged pores. This is where chelates come in. When a chelate bonds to a micronutrient, it surrounds individual ions and gives them a negative or neutral charge, allowing the nutrient to enter through the negatively charged pore and travel into the plant’s tissues. This is what I mean when I say force feeding. It is taking a nutrient that otherwise wouldn’t be able to enter in its current form, and making it supernaturally available to the plant.

In many instances you will see EDTA, DTPA, and/or EDDHA on the sides of your bottles.. Think of them as micronutrient delivery systems for the root zone. Envelopes if you will, that can pass right through the plants barriers and deliver that micronutrient. These synthetic delivery systems are foreign to the plant and so they aren’t absorbed. They’re sent back out into the rhizosphere to collect another micronutrient to drive it back through.

As we can see, chelated nutrients are highly effective at delivering their exact nutrients directly into the plant, regardless of what’s going on. There’s quite a few positives to this.. Micronutrient deficiencies are difficult to overcome with just applying the nutrient to the soil. They get immobilized, washed away, leached out, or generally are in a form incompatible to the plant. If they’re chelated however, all of that becomes irrelevant, the micronutrients are bonded in place and become available to the plant.

Now, for the bad.. EDTA is one of the most popular chelates used in agriculture and unfortunately it is not quickly decomposed by microbes. It is also toxic to them. That’s a one two punch to our food web. We want microbes, we want them badly, and introducing chelates will literally wipe them out.

They will also hang around a long time since they cannot be decomposed quickly, essentially irradiating the area against microbial growth.

Not only are they toxic, they are serving a purpose the plant already can do. The plant can send out its own exudates that act as chelators. These exudates also are what call in the microbes and fungi to do their food web job. Any time we introduce a process already naturally handled we unbalance our web. Nature has been chelating by itself for millennia.

Now for the worse.. those synthetic envelopes(chelates) are nothing more than synthetic salts.. synthetic salts are murderous to our microlife.. as the soil dries out it these salts will devastate our micro populations, and because they take so long to breakdown they continue to make the area around them completely inhospitable to the beneficial life. Organic acids like Humic, fulvic, and ascorbic also aren’t very beneficial to us. They make nutrients available to the roots in unnatural amounts similar to these synthetic chelates, this is again akin to force feeding the plant. We dont want to make decisions for the plant, and since the plant is capable of sending out exudates that naturally chelate nutrients, we have no reason to apply them.

This is a fairly quick and dirty rundown on chelation.. we can expand on any topics any one has any questions on

Ok, so this doesn't sound like a diy thing.

I wonder if I supplement my Jadam nutes with JMS (Jadam Microbial Solution) when adding them to the reservoir if that would help as I don't know how active the microbes from the rest of the pot would be with the nutrients being absorbed into the soil from below.

I'm pretty confident I could just fertigate from the top and have it work fine but I'd rather get everything working through the reservoir if possible.

Also, I'm wondering if maybe we should have this discussion in SIP Club as I'd imagine others might have an interest if we can crack the code.

 

[lootznbootz]

Lol.. I view it as, we’re growing cannabis ffs.. It doesn’t need to be a James Webb Space Telescope level of technicality. It’s dirt, water, and a handful of mostly poop and dead stuff lol.

THATS MY LANGUAGE LMAO

 

[Keffka]

Ok, so this doesn't sound like a diy thing.

I wonder if I supplement my Jadam nutes with JMS (Jadam Microbial Solution) when adding them to the reservoir if that would help as I don't know how active the microbes from the rest of the pot would be with the nutrients being absorbed into the soil from below.

I'm pretty confident I could just fertigate from the top and have it work fine but I'd rather get everything working through the reservoir if possible.

Also, I'm wondering if maybe we should have this discussion in SIP Club as I'd imagine others might have an interest if we can crack the code.

I was just about to ask if you’re discussing this somewhere centralized. From what I’ve read about Jadam so far it sounds like it’s gonna require some soil prep with one of its solutions at least when getting the container ready. You may already be chelating to begin with if I understand the salts purpose correctly but I’ve gotta read more about what the system itself is doing.

I think we can figure this one out without you being forced to fertigate though based on what I’ve read so far. I’ll tag back into the SIP club.

 

[lootznbootz]

@Keffka Are you familiar with Build a Soil?
I've been looking at their website and watching their videos and so far, I like what I see.
Wonder if you've heard of them and/or have any opinions on them if so?

 

[Keffka]

@Keffka Are you familiar with Build a Soil?
I've been looking at their website and watching their videos and so far, I like what I see.
Wonder if you've heard of them and/or have any opinions on them if so?

I’ve heard of em, but don’t know much. I’ll check that out when I’m finished looking over the Jadam stuff

 

[Azimuth]

@Keffka Are you familiar with Build a Soil?
I've been looking at their website and watching their videos and so far, I like what I see.
Wonder if you've heard of them and/or have any opinions on them if so?

That's Jeremy who was a member of another forum with Clackams Coot and our own @bobrown14 when they were collaborating on many of what are now staples of the "Coots" mix (which was really just the Cornell University mix base that they then started amending with the calcium stuff etc.)

Jeremy founded a business based on those principles and offers organic growers all the tools they could need.

Really a great resource for organic Canna growers.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

That's Jeremy who was a member of another forum with Clackams Coot and our own @bobrown14 when they were collaborating on many of what are now staples of the "Coots" mix (which was really just the Cornell University mix base that they then started amending with the calcium stuff etc.)

Jeremy founded a business based on those principles and offers organic growers all the tools they could need.

Really a great resource for organic Canna growers.

I think he might be a member here too. Some things we discussed here showed up on his videos right afterwards.

 

[lootznbootz]

That's Jeremy who was a member of another forum with Clackams Coot and our own @bobrown14 when they were collaborating on many of what are now staples of the "Coots" mix (which was really just the Cornell University mix base that they then started amending with the calcium stuff etc.)

Jeremy founded a business based on those principles and offers organic growers all the tools they could need.

Really a great resource for organic Canna growers.

Thank you @Azimuth they have been my read for today and I think I may have found what I ultimately want to achieve.
The company has TONS of information helping to digest all the info.
It's actually very affordable and they have a bunch of different options.
The ideas are flowing on how to achieve this to the proper scale I would need and which method I want to use as far as building it.
I'd like their complete kit to limit the variables until I'm comfortable enough to source ingredients on my own, time will tell.

 

[lootznbootz]

I think he might be a member here too. Some things we discussed here showed up on his videos right afterwards.

The videos on their channel are amazing! I love watching the results and progress with video explanations.
Seems like a very good company from what I've seen and heard anyone that I've talked to.
My local store even suggested them as well, so I'm kinda excited to try them out

 

[Azimuth]

I think he might be a member here too. Some things we discussed here showed up on his videos right afterwards.

Interesting. He's not very public if he is on here. Or maybe just travels I different circles than I.

If he is he should be a sponsor. Lots of growers here using, or would use, his products.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Interesting. He's not very public if he is on here. Or maybe just travels I different circles than I.

If he is he should be a sponsor. Lots of growers here using, or would use, his products.

There may be reasons for not being a sponsor, in which case it would be wise to keep a low profile.

 

[lootznbootz]

Another watering update (12/25 ) Day 29​

I hope everyone enjoyed their holiday mine wasn't very enjoyable so I spent my time reading up on no till gardening and what it would take to implement that style of growing into my own garden.

I am very much liking the idea of the build a soil. I'm undecided whether to source materials from them and just pay for the shipping. That way for at least the first run or 2 it's just a matter of mixing it up and letting it play out while we get more knowledge on the soil food web and how to properly maintain it on our own. Before trying our hand with our own locally sourced materials adding variables, we aren't familiar with yet.
I'm also looking into building my own compost pile and worm bin.
The more I look into this style of growing the more and more it makes me want to scrap my current grow and start over!

Speaking of my current grow things are drying out more slowly now that the humidity is a bit higher. In order to maintain that humidity tho I was having to keep my temps down.
While I sat up looking into the tent last night, I guess I had an epiphany and realized the issues with my environment that were not making things easier on us.

In this picture you can see a few things that are more than likely causing us problems maintaining the proper environment.

• To start the lights, we’re far too low and having them uneven is also not need (at least currently)
• Because of the light height our clip fan was also out of position
• The humidifier was sitting on the ground behind the SIP (why it wasn’t on the stand the air pump has been sitting on for over a week is beyond me) Now it’s sitting slightly higher than the plants and the cool mist falls down into the canopy as opposed to being level with it.
• Moving the humidifier up onto the stand also gave us more space for the plants so positioning them under the now more even par is easier and less crowded

SO MUCH BETTER!!!
The pictures speak for themselves!
Once I made the necessary adjustments, I zipped it up and dialed it back in.
The lights not being so close to the canopy allowed the canopy to reach 76F slowly. The inline temp trigger is set to 77F.
While on it is set to a max of 2. While off the speed is 0, meaning it shuts off completely.

The slow climb in temperature meant that the humidity wasn't sucked out of the tent in the process, so the humidity is able to climb to 60%. The humidity trigger is set to 62%.
While on it is set to a max of 2. While off the speed is 0, meaning it shuts off completely.

To help maintain those targets without the need of inline fan constantly the clip fan which is now blowing on our plants as opposed to on the lights, is set to a temp trigger of 74F and the humidity trigger is 65%
While on it is set to max of 6. While off the minimum speed is 1.

This allows us to maintain the environment exactly where we want it so long as the temp in the garage is around 63F or so.
In this picture you can see both of the controllers and what is running on them.
The 4x3 controller is reading as it would only in the 4x3 tent, the door to the tent is wide open the lights are off with the inline is set to 1.
For now, this tent acts as our control, and it helps to get an idea of what the equipment in the 2x4 tent needs to be set to in order to reach the environment we want.

Hopefully these changes keep things in check for a while. Obviously as the temp in the garage fluctuates the Oil Rad will need to be turned on or off accordingly, but as of right now I've had the Rad off for going on 24 hours.
These are current "night" or "lights off" parameters I took this screenshot as I was typing this out so it's the most accurate numbers I have




Funny how you start with just a few pictures and next thing you know you have a full-on update!

As far as the plant's things have been more or less on the same path.
The PGC is looking phenomenal! both are sativa leaning but PGC2 is looking the best out of the entire grow!
I think she took the treatment of Suzanne personally because she seems to want her own Solo act as well!

The PBK2 is like her SIP counterpart in that they are HEAVY leaning Indica's very short, stocky and wants to be a bush also the leaves are just fat and wide and bigger than my face. Both of them were exactly what I was looking for and the genetics seem extremely stable between seeds they look like they could be from the same clone they are that similar.

The CC1 still looks pathetic it's been finnicky from the start. They both show similar problems (which actually all 3 different strains seem to be going through the same things at the same pace) it makes it helpful in diagnosing them individually and as their respective strains. But the CC1 looks ready to die and has since germination. I should have dropped another seed then. CC2 seems to be figuring it out
She feels like the lightest of the pots and looks like she is still overwatered.
If I'm being honest, I don't really know if she'll make it to flower let alone harvest.
I'm pulling her resources. No more nutes time effort or energy on her until she shows some recovery.
No sense in wasting soil for an up pot for a plant that doesn't deserve it. She's got her corner in the tent to either get it together or get out our way. If we run out of room before she figures it out shell become the first green matter of our compost pile Circle of Life

(Back row left to right)
CC1 PGC2
(Front row left to right)
CC2 PGC1 PBK2

The only one that seems to be thriving since the transplant and last watering (PGC 1)
The PGC 2 behind her seems to be on her way as well tho

PBK 1(Suzanne)
PBK 2

CC1 pathetic looking
CC2

I did also spread out the branching on everything to kind of open it up a bit. I like to press the limbs down and see how well they will bend before doing any real training. The limbs are still good to bend but are hardening at the main stem just a bit so training will have to be looked into more seriously for each plant and what we plan to achieve will need to be mapped out soon.

Other than that, things have been inching along it seems. I am also going to be ordering a new PH pen sometime today most likely I think I may go with the APERA for now because I don't want to spend so much for a blue lab pen when i plan on switching to a method in which I no longer need to worry about PH. Seems silly to spend that money on a pen when I could spend it on the ingredients to not need the pen. BUT I do need to finish this grow and it should come in handy even still.
I also think I may be going away from the R/O water as well or maybe finally taking I believe it was @greenvein and start diluting my tap with R/O and finding the right balance as after much more reading, I'm seeing this is probably a cause to my problems. As bad as the city water is here, I think aerating for 24 hours to kill of chloramines and chlorines may prove more beneficial although more work. Idk definitely going to be looking into my water situation more closely going forward.
Anyway, that's all for now!
I don't think I will be home tonight to look in on the plants or get pictures for the watering update today, but I will try.
I don't think they need water anyway pots felt decent all except the problem child.

Thank you for your time and as always
Thank You for stopping by!

 

[lootznbootz]

Another watering update (12/25 ) Day 29​

I hope everyone enjoyed their holiday mine wasn't very enjoyable so I spent my time reading up on no till gardening and what it would take to implement that style of growing into my own garden.

I am very much liking the idea of the build a soil. I'm undecided whether to source materials from them and just pay for the shipping. That way for at least the first run or 2 it's just a matter of mixing it up and letting it play out while we get more knowledge on the soil food web and how to properly maintain it on our own. Before trying our hand with our own locally sourced materials adding variables, we aren't familiar with yet.
I'm also looking into building my own compost pile and worm bin.
The more I look into this style of growing the more and more it makes me want to scrap my current grow and start over!

Speaking of my current grow things are drying out more slowly now that the humidity is a bit higher. In order to maintain that humidity tho I was having to keep my temps down.
While I sat up looking into the tent last night, I guess I had an epiphany and realized the issues with my environment that were not making things easier on us.

In this picture you can see a few things that are more than likely causing us problems maintaining the proper environment.

• So to start the lights we’re far too low and having them uneven is also not need (at least currently)
• Because of the light height our clip fan was also out of position
• The humidifier was sitting on the ground behind the SIP (why it wasn’t on the stand the air pump has been sitting on for over a week is beyond me) Now it’s sitting slightly higher than the plants and the cool mist falls down into the canopy as opposed to being level with it.
• Moving the humidifier up onto the stand also gave us more space for the plants so positioning them under the now more even par is easier and less crowded

SO MUCH BETTER!!!
The pictures speak for themselves!
Once I made the necessary adjustments, I zipped it up and dialed it back in.
The lights not being so close to the canopy allowed the canopy to reach 76F slowly. The inline temp trigger is set to 77F.
While on it is set to a max of 2. While off the speed is 0, meaning it shuts off completely.

The slow climb in temperature meant that the humidity wasn't sucked out of the tent in the process, so the humidity is able to climb to 60%. The humidity trigger is set to 62%.
While on it is set to a max of 2. While off the speed is 0, meaning it shuts off completely.

To help maintain those targets without the need of inline fan constantly the clip fan which is now blowing on our plants as opposed to on the lights, is set to a temp trigger of 74F and the humidity trigger is 65%
While on it is set to max of 6. While off the minimum speed is 1.

This allows us to maintain the environment exactly where we want it so long as the temp in the garage is around 63F or so.
In this picture you can see both of the controllers and what is running on them.
The 4x3 controller is reading as it would only in the 4x3 tent, the door to the tent is wide open the lights are off with the inline is set to 1.
For now, this tent acts as our control, and it helps to get an idea of what the equipment in the 2x4 tent needs to be set to in order to reach the environment we want.

Hopefully these changes keep things in check for a while. Obviously as the temp in the garage fluctuates the Oil Rad will need to be turned on or off accordingly, but as of right now Ive had the Rad off for going on 24 hours.
These are current "night" or "lights off" parameters I took this screenshot as I was typing this out so its the most accurate numbers I have




Funny how you start with just a few pictures and next thing you know you have a full-on update!

As far as the plant's things have been more or less on the same path.
The PGC is looking phenomenal! both are sativa leaning but PGC2 is looking the best out of the entire grow!
I think she took the treatment of Suzanne personally because she seems to want her own Solo act as well!

The PBK2 is like her SIP counterpart in that they are HEAVY leaning indica's very short, stocky and wants to be a bush also the leaves are just fat and wide and bigger than my face. Both of them were exactly what I was looking for and the genetics seem extremely stable between seeds they look like they could be from the same clone they are that similar.

The CC1 still looks pathetic it's been finnicky from the start. They both show similar problems (which actually all 3 different strains seem to be going through the same things at the same pace) it makes it helpful in diagnosing them individually and as their respective strains. But the CC1 looks ready to die and has since germination. I should have dropped another seed then. CC2 seems to be figuring it out
She feels like the lightest of the pots and looks like she is still overwatered.
If I'm being honest, I don't really know if she'll make it to flower let alone harvest.
I'm pulling her resources. No more nutes time effort or energy on her until she shows some recovery.
No sense in wasting soil for an up pot for a plant that doesn't deserve it. She's got her corner in the tent to either get it together or get out our way. If we run out of room before she figures it out shell become the first green matter of our compost pile Circle of Life

(Back row left to right)
CC1 PGC2
(Front row left to right)
Cc2 PGC1 PBK2

The only one that seems to be thriving since the transplant and last watering
The PGC 2 behind her seems to be on her way as well tho

PBK 1(Suzanne)
PBK 2

CC1 pathetic looking
CC2

I did also spread out the branching on everything to kind of open it up a bit. I like to press the limbs down and see how well they will bend before doing any real training. The limbs are still good to bend but are hardening at the main stem just a bit so training will have to be looked into more seriously for each plant and what we plan to achieve will need to be mapped out soon.

Other than that, things have been inching along it seems. I am also going to be ordering a new PH pen sometime today most likely I think I may go with the APERA for now becasue I dont want to spend so much for a bluelab pen when i plan on switching to a method in which I no longer need to worry about PH. Seems silly to spend that money on a pen when I could spend it on the ingredients to not need the pen. BUT I do need to finish this grow and it should come in handy even still.
I also think I may be going away from the R/O water as well or maybe finally taking I believe it was @greenvein and start diluting my tap with R/O and finding the right balance as after much more reading, I'm seeing this is probably a cause to my problems. As bad as the city water is here, I think aerating for 24 hours to kill of chloramines and chlorines may prove more beneficial although more work. Idk definitely going to be looking into my water situation more closely going forward.
Anyway, that's all for now!
I don't think I will be home tonight to look in on the plants or get pictures for the watering update today, but I will try.
I don't think they need water anyway pots felt decent all except the problem child.

Thank you for your time and as always
Thank You for stopping by!

 

[Azimuth]

I spent my time reading up on no till gardening and what it would take to implement that style of growing into my own garden.

But pay attention to pot size as I think the recommended minimum is something like 15 gallons.

The more I look into this style of growing the more and more it makes me want to scrap my current grow and start over!

Except for the SIP though, right?

As bad as the city water is here, I think aerating for 24 hours to kill of chloramines and chlorines may prove more beneficial although more work. Idk definitely going to be looking into my water situation more closely going forward.

You can aerate the chlorine away but I don't think chloramine works the same way. You can drop both out of solution with a small amount of vitamin C, though.

 

[lootznbootz]

But pay attention to pot size as I think the recommended minimum is something like 15 gallons.


Except for the SIP though, right?


You can aerate away chlorine but I don't think chloramine works the same way. You can drop both out of solution with a small amount of vitamin C, though.

Yes I was looking into that about pot size. It is doable BUT I will still have to supplement with a top dressing and or teas to go for an entire cycle with smaller bags depending on the sized plant you grow.

According to build a soil from their videos and what they recommend is the plant should only be as big as your root mass, otherwise you will not have enough to get through to the end of flower without some type of supplementing but I'm totally ok with that! considering the top dressings and teas are done with compost and EWC it's not "water only" all the way through but it is all organic and is maintaining the natural food web feeding the soil and not the plant that is what I want to get to.

OF COURSE, NOT THE SIP! I actually want to do as @Keffka and incorporate the living soil in a SIP.
Tho I know he uses a different method with layering and spikes.

No more worrying of PH or mixing nutrients or feeding the proper nutrients or over and underwatering.
All of the things that seem to complicate and mess up grows.

Ahh yes, I wasn't sure which one was able to be aerated off. I have never heard of the Vitamin C method tho do you have a link for a read on that? or can you give me a quick rundown of it? how much do you add? what kind? etc.

 

[lootznbootz]

Also, I'm not opposed to building a soil bed in my tent, if need be, to adapt to the living soil.
They have a 3x3 bed in their season 1 10x10 videos and I've always loved that idea.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

As bad as the city water is here, I think aerating for 24 hours to kill of chloramines and chlorines may prove more beneficial although more work. Idk definitely going to be looking into my water situation more closely going forward.

How bad is it? I've never removed chlorine or chloramine (if it's there, I don't think we use chloramine here) so I've always wondered if it has an impact.

 

[lootznbootz]

How bad is it? I've never removed chlorine or chloramine (if it's there, I don't think we use chloramine here) so I've always wondered if it has an impact.

Before the "move" the water was crazy high ppm I don't remember I'd have to look back and see if I journaled it, but I believe plus 500ppm out the tap maybe even more but this new place the water seems much easier to clean and not as bad.
I was going to test the water today and start the process of finding a balance between tap and r/o

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Also, I'm not opposed to building a soil bed in my tent, if need be, to adapt to the living soil.
They have a 3x3 bed in their season 1 10x10 videos and I've always loved that idea.

I love those videos too. He keeps going with that 3x3 bed too just top dressing amendments and chop and drop of the cover crops.
I think he mentions in one of the faq videos that he doesn't dechlorinate his water either as the organic matter "consumes" it.