Letting the top of the soil dry out can help, as can a dry layer of de, sand or perlite. Does your top layer ever dry out?
Lootz Returns! Multi-Tent Grow In Soil With LED COBs & LM301H
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lootznbootz
Well-Known Member
It does dry out and they seem to love it actually.
They don't want to fly around they more so want to dig around in the top of the soil I scraped most of what was dry and loose off the top and will replace it with fresh dry soil or some type of top dressing to prevent them as you suggested.
While doing that is there anything else I can top dress to help out the grow. maybe some lime or magnesium to help with the Cal/mag and ph issues that seems to be starting out?
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- #123
lootznbootz
Well-Known Member
yes, this is going to be my new practice Or just switch to an inert media that doesn't have moisture in the bag to breed them. but that's a whole other can of worms so to speak.Looking good bud happy girls.. love how relaxed veg is!
I do the same as this.. only on my second grow ever but the nightmares I herd of these gnats I steam all my soil when I buy it to kill anything then put it all in a tub mixed ready just turn it every so often. I can always see it's still alive but then again I'm growing in compost
Before adding any soil to my garden, it's getting an SNS drench whether I see something flying around or not
@StoneOtter has posted This which shows what he uses in his soil. I know a lot of it goes into spikes for amending soil but I think it can be used as a top dress.
SO can help you better there.
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- #125
lootznbootz
Well-Known Member
Day 25 (12/21)
Upon opening the tent, sad leaves all needing a drink.The other night I stayed up late! Reading all about VPD, soil moisture, water vs. nutrient uptake and how all of it works together thanks to @Keffka thread.
I sat back and looked at what was going on, comparing what I was seeing to what we're aiming for.
That led me to making a few changes to the environment in the controller.
I realized that at the temps we were reaching keeping up with humidity is much harder to do obviously.
Luckily for us the environment outside the tent has the ability to be much cooler. Thus, lowering the max temperature, we are able to achieve in the tent.
To do this I simply shut off the heater yesterday during lights on, let the temperature in the garage drop and let the
the lights do all the work. I did need to drop the intensity of the lights to 50% yesterday to let things cool off a bit.
Once it finally did, we were able to reach the humidity and VPD we were aiming for.
I brought the temps to 73F. Humidity then rose to over 50% and we achieved a VPD of around 1.1 like we wanted
I had to set the inline fan to only go on when the humidity limit (55%) was reached otherwise I had it shut off so not to constantly vent out the humidity we had just built up.
I also decreased the high heat limit so the inline fan would turn on at 74F to ensure we maintained the numbers we were looking for.
With those limits set it ensures the inline fan turns on periodically to refresh the air in the tent like were supposed to.
At lights out I turned on the heater on low power and set the thermostat to max. It kept the tent temperature around 64F. The temp of the garage was about 67F.
Then I turned the thermostat down to the point where it clicks off and stop. We now have our limit set to maintain the temps during lights out.
At lights on today I turned the off moved it out the way and turned the lights up to 10 were now back into the parameters we want.
One thing tackled on to the next.
I feel like even tho I've been in the tent and practically working exclusively on the grow, I've been sitting idle.
There was more that could be done.
The Fungus gnat situation has turned into the 100-year war. But I do feel there is an end in sight with my latest moves.
I noticed so many gnats on the small pots at the pot the bottoms.
I put the sticky traps in around the bottoms of the pots intertwined between the pots and it helped but then I saw it and realized it.
I never put perlite in the bottom of the pots when i transplanted to 1 gal plastic pots. And the little bastards were using the bottoms of the pots instead of the tops it seems.
A trip to the local hardware store was in order.
I picked up a couple of things that i feel are going to make a big difference going forward although simple and everyday things.
Sometimes it's the small things ya know?
- Perlite
- Diatomaceous Earth
- Spray bottles
- Pump sprayer
- PVC cutter (Finally)
I thought maybe my PH was too low on these 2 CC but now it seems maybe was too high?
I brought the bag of soil that I treated with SNS and left outside to dry out inside, to warm up and dry out faster today.
I put it in 3Gal plastic pots to distribute evenly then added about 1QT sized scoop of perlite to each pot and mixed it in and put it underneath the cob fixture.
That helped warm the soil a bit, I also mixed it up periodically.
Then I thought why not just Up pot the 3 that are not showing issues and seem to be doing fine.
So, I took a 3G pot of soil and mixed it between 2 pots to evenly mix and distribute about 1/2QT sized cup of Vermiculite to retain some moisture as now with the added perlite the soil is SUPER airy, but I do need to retain some moisture.
I also mixed in a LARGE amount of mycorrhizae into the soil and mixed it as evenly as possible.
I Put Perlite in the bottom of 2Gal pots almost to the point the drainage holes were just covered and sprinkled in some DE and worked it into this bottom layer.
This layer of perlite and DE just about covers the holes of the pot
I then added 2 cups of soil on top of this perlite DE layer.
I fit a 1Gal pot into the 2Gal pot and packed in our newly mixed soil around it.
I sprinkled more Myco into the hole and on the roots when I pulled the plants out for transplant.
At this stage we've added myco in almost every way we could to get them as much exposure as possible.
I then mixed-up week 3 nutrients according to our schedule to water them in and get them settled in as they needed it today anyway this is perfect timing.
R/O water was PH 7.5
nutrient solution 4.2 after mixing Cal/mag first.
after PH'ing 6.3 (Kinda played chase the PH for a bit)
Finally, I watered in a Gal of feed with the pump sprayer. I love this thing because it ensures you get an even spray nice and slow and can really direct exactly where you want to pray with the wand.
The soil hadn't completely dried out when I transplanted so for the transplants I watered until the pots felt heavy and and ran out of water, I fed the CC as well and after flushing a Gal of water through them they got runoff fairly easily.
I needed water for Suzanne as well so between the 5 of them they took about a little over a half gallon.
Then Sprinkled the DE over the top of the soil. I know i should have waited until it dried out a bit more, but the gnats are getting bad I'm willing to deal with it clumping up on the top of the soil so long as it keeps them away from the plants.
When the CC dry out, they too will be uppot as they are being attacked from underneath at the bottom of their pots as well.
The perlite layer in the bottom should really help get rid of them.
I placed the sticky traps back around the base of the pots as long as their sticky and I can see gnats well employ everything at our disposal!
I took the time to cut off the single bladed and triple bladed leaves on all the plants as well to try and open it up a little bit underneath.
I don't want to cut those nodes because I would like to get clones from those nodes and since topping, they have grown a bit more useable.
I'm hoping that the uppot will snap them out of this little stall they are currently in coupled with a better VPD maybe they can stop drinking so much water so fast and uptake some of those nutrients they need as well.
Their PH should be dialed in now.
All I can do is stand back and watch.
The PGC1 is looking phenomenal! It's always standing at attention and just praying to the light even after transplanting it looked as if it started doing its thing instantly. I can't wait to get a clone from her.
The PBK2 is also looking like a keeper very stocky and showing signs of heavy indica as advertised but I may have a few clones from Suzanne, so it won't be make or break to get a clone from her.
Any clone I don't get now is a different strain we drop later so it's a win win.
I will let them do their thing and well see how they respond.
The roots at transplant are also looking amazing too!
PGC1
PGC2
PBK2
Oops
I told you we added plenty of MYCOI finally finished up and put them back in the tent to let them be left alone and recover.
Nothing else to report really and I need to post this so I dont have to adjust my days again! I've been trying to post this thing all day!
Happy Holidays Thank you for your time!
Thank you for stopping by!
I thought we was winning this fight! I see your latest move with the upper cut but try this left right combination.. 
Something I saved before I started my grow but never had to use it.
Ur girls will bounce back after transplant bro them roots are
As for the pH what was your run off ppm/ec? And did you test any of the other plants pH before transplant to try narrow it down? Mine has always grown slow with high pH but in flower toys stat coming out the pram
Something I saved before I started my grow but never had to use it.
Ur girls will bounce back after transplant bro them roots are
As for the pH what was your run off ppm/ec? And did you test any of the other plants pH before transplant to try narrow it down? Mine has always grown slow with high pH but in flower toys stat coming out the pram
Hey Lootz I’m strongly suspecting you’re having an overwatering problem which is leading to a few other issues.. I’m gonna read back through your journal to get an idea but your non SIPs look pretty classically overwatered which would also explain your other issues like ph and fungus gnats.. These images of mine I’m gonna share should look real familiar, it’s me overwatering mine.. notice the similarities in the droop and the papery swollen leaves.. pay extra attention to the bottom leaves of the 3rd picture.. that papery look is undeniable.. Like I said I’m gonna read back through to get an idea of it but this is my strong suspicion
If you look at your leaves they look swollen around the veins, like they’re filled with water and being constricted by said veins.. if you feel them they probably feel papery as well and not smooth.
The transplant will help, but you’re gonna have to hold off on watering no matter how bad you think they want it.. you want them near wilting, not drooping. There’s a difference in the two, it’s subtle but it’s key.. When you’re in veg a little wilt is okay, even encouraged in some scenarios.. It’s much much better to let them go too long without water than it is to give them too much water.
The transplant will help, but you’re gonna have to hold off on watering no matter how bad you think they want it.. you want them near wilting, not drooping. There’s a difference in the two, it’s subtle but it’s key.. When you’re in veg a little wilt is okay, even encouraged in some scenarios.. It’s much much better to let them go too long without water than it is to give them too much water.
@Gee64 check in on this journal with me.. There’s a lot going on but I think we can trace it to watering which is probably being driven by VPD like Lootz stated above
Ok so I am fairly confident we’re looking at overwatering. I suspect your VPD was driving your plants pretty hard as well hence your bronze spotting, while it also was drying out the top of your soil. You’re in hard sided pots as well which inherent to their design keep more moisture in for longer lower so even when the top is dry the middle and bottom are still wet. With how you’re growing you want to establish a clear wet/dry cycle, which I haven’t seen. You’ve watered back to back in certain instances, and have also watered 3-5 days later after watering in some cases as well.
A wet dry cycle takes a lot of the guesswork out of when they’re thirsty. It should be measurable. For instance, you should know “I watered 9 days ago they’re dry and ready for water.” From that point you should be paying attention to the days. “Ok soon it will be 8 days then dry, then 7, etc.” when you get to 2-3 days between watering you’re close to ready for transplant.
Check back into @Emilya Green how to water thread.. She lays out the process to establish a wet dry cycle much more elegantly than I’d be able to without just copying and pasting lol. If you crawl through her thread there’s a bunch of gems in the pages as well in relation to watering that aren’t on the front page.
The difficult part about establishing this cycle is knowing when the pot is truly dry. I was convinced my pots were fully dry, they were light and the soil up top was super dry. They weren’t fully dry. The way I learned was using a digital water meter. This water meter was useful to learn how wet the soil was where it was wet. I was able to use it and watch my water table slowly descend to the bottom of the pot. Then I lifted the pot and realized it was much lighter than I thought it could get. I had to do this a few times to get the feel and groove of it.
I don’t recommend depending on the water meter exclusively, but it will help you begin to see inside your pots. Your plants can control the ph in their root zone to take up the nutrients they need to take so it’s not uncommon to see fluctuations in your runoff Ph.. I personally don’t check runoff Ph, it’s only useful in very specific instances. When you overwater your plants lose the ability to effectively control the Ph of their root zone which will cause all sorts of wild issues that can replicate almost any deficiency.
A wet dry cycle takes a lot of the guesswork out of when they’re thirsty. It should be measurable. For instance, you should know “I watered 9 days ago they’re dry and ready for water.” From that point you should be paying attention to the days. “Ok soon it will be 8 days then dry, then 7, etc.” when you get to 2-3 days between watering you’re close to ready for transplant.
Check back into @Emilya Green how to water thread.. She lays out the process to establish a wet dry cycle much more elegantly than I’d be able to without just copying and pasting lol. If you crawl through her thread there’s a bunch of gems in the pages as well in relation to watering that aren’t on the front page.
The difficult part about establishing this cycle is knowing when the pot is truly dry. I was convinced my pots were fully dry, they were light and the soil up top was super dry. They weren’t fully dry. The way I learned was using a digital water meter. This water meter was useful to learn how wet the soil was where it was wet. I was able to use it and watch my water table slowly descend to the bottom of the pot. Then I lifted the pot and realized it was much lighter than I thought it could get. I had to do this a few times to get the feel and groove of it.
I don’t recommend depending on the water meter exclusively, but it will help you begin to see inside your pots. Your plants can control the ph in their root zone to take up the nutrients they need to take so it’s not uncommon to see fluctuations in your runoff Ph.. I personally don’t check runoff Ph, it’s only useful in very specific instances. When you overwater your plants lose the ability to effectively control the Ph of their root zone which will cause all sorts of wild issues that can replicate almost any deficiency.
Also.. don’t stress the fungus gnats too much.. they’re more of a nuisance than anything.. a fan over the top of the soil and a few sticky pads should keep them in check.. They like to hang out at the bottom outlets too but you’re tracking that.. a sticky down low works well for them.
Don’t let them dictate your watering schedule.. they’re only really dangerous in massive numbers to a seedling.. otherwise you can view them as free organic matter and aeration. Once you’ve dialed in your grow the fungus gnats won’t be able to compete with the plant, bacteria and myco, and will be limited if not extinct. Moving toward an organic grow you’re gonna get “bugs” and micro life, it’s part of a healthy food web and should be viewed positively, you’ve created an environment that attracts life! This sentiment doesn’t apply to spider mites though, they’re not positive lol. However they don’t just magically pop up.. as long as you’re vigilant about visiting other grows and don’t cross contaminate you’re fine. This also applies to clones from other sources, it’s really just not worth it. As long as the bugs are not attacking your leaves they’re generally okay to have around.
Don’t let them dictate your watering schedule.. they’re only really dangerous in massive numbers to a seedling.. otherwise you can view them as free organic matter and aeration. Once you’ve dialed in your grow the fungus gnats won’t be able to compete with the plant, bacteria and myco, and will be limited if not extinct. Moving toward an organic grow you’re gonna get “bugs” and micro life, it’s part of a healthy food web and should be viewed positively, you’ve created an environment that attracts life! This sentiment doesn’t apply to spider mites though, they’re not positive lol. However they don’t just magically pop up.. as long as you’re vigilant about visiting other grows and don’t cross contaminate you’re fine. This also applies to clones from other sources, it’s really just not worth it. As long as the bugs are not attacking your leaves they’re generally okay to have around.
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- #132
lootznbootz
Well-Known Member
This is why you have become one of my favorite members on this forum!
You have no idea how much I truly appreciate your input but also the time you took to delve into it for me.
I was suspecting I had been overwatering but with how dry it is here I thought my issue was the soil drying out so fast due to the atmosphere and so they were in need.
If you look at the pictures of my roots, they look exactly as you explained the bottoms were obviously holding much more water than the tops of the pots. When I lifted the pots, they felt light but when I transplanted them, I knew then there was still moisture in the soil. I've felt dryer soil at transplant before, which is helpful to make sure to root ball stays intact.
I had to be careful not to let it all fall apart in my hands where there were fewer roots holding it intact.
My plan after this last transplant was to let them DRY and I mean DRY out.
I think it will be best to start a daily update here on them as my own write up to follow a dry cycle. I hope you'll check in and follow along while we watch for when to water precisely.
Again, thank you @Keffka another example of why this site is so valuable. I don't know that I could ever grow and not be active on these forums.
No doubt, that’s what this place is for! It’s also why I’m pretty adamant about keeping it respectful, it’s all love and concern. I don’t want people feeling defensive if they’re told something is off because it’s purely from a place of love and respect. If I see something off I’m gonna say something because otherwise it’s so, so, so easy to get stuck chasing your tail further down into a hole until your plants fail and you give up and that’s not beneficial to anyone here especially you. The more people we have sharing experience and knowledge the better we all get. Just like diversity in nature makes plants and animals stronger, so too does it make us stronger.
I’ll for sure keep checking in to see how things are going.. You’ve got the intelligence and drive to see it through I have no doubts your final product will be awesome.
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- #135
lootznbootz
Well-Known Member
I thought we was winning this fight! I see your latest move with the upper cut but try this left right combination..
Something I saved before I started my grow but never had to use it.
Ur girls will bounce back after transplant bro them roots are
As for the pH what was your run off ppm/ec? And did you test any of the other plants pH before transplant to try narrow it down? Mine has always grown slow with high pH but in flower toys stat coming out the pram
When I get back to the garden, I will definitely be hitting these gnats with the HADOUKEN!!!I wish I had the time to check all of them but honestly, other than the Cookie Crisps I didn't bother to check because they were the only ones that have been showing real issues.
I really wish I would have just to have it documented. It would have been helpful for sure.
It's also been busy with the holidays and life in general, so I feel like I haven't been able to be as detailed as I would like to be but I'm getting there.
I saw those roots and HAD to get pictures I love just looking and tracing how they followed the water trippy to look at for sure!
Great advice @Keffka .
And I agree that there's a learning curve to the wet/dry cycle. Makes me appreciate the simplicity of the SIP that much more. I know you're planning on building more of them for next time.
Great advice @Keffka .
And I agree that there's a learning curve to the wet/dry cycle. Makes me appreciate the simplicity of the SIP that much more. I know you're planning on building more of them for next time.
Thanks @Azimuth
It’s so hard to sit there and look at your plants and see something is wrong and not touch them lol. It’s in our nature to want to help/fix them but some times it’s best just to leave them alone.
A SIP allows you to leave them alone twice as much, and we all know I’m all about anything that helps (cue Pink Floyd) “leave those plants alone” lol!
kahoona
Well-Known Member
mosquito dunk soaking in the feed water 24 hours before you feed. let it soak for 24hrs and take it out and save it for next time you get gnats. it wipes out the babies before they mature. DE top dress for adults or put a couple inches of sand in the pot to break the cycle as well. repeat every 3 weeks. stickies too. watch your ph before you feed as these raise ph.
So Bti (mosquito dunks) is/are really effective at reducing the FG populations, they’re also fairly harmless to humans and animals in the short term. As long as you’re growing with chelated nutrients, and not recycling your soil, there should be no issues.
However, if you move into TLO/LOS or utilize the soil food web, it’s not a good idea. As we study it’s use more and more we’ve found long term undesirable effects:
“For instance, upon introduction to soil habitats, Bt strains can affect indigenous microorganisms, such as bacteria and fungi, and further establish complex relationships with local plants, ranging from a mostly beneficial demeanor, to pathogenesis-like plant colonization. By exerting a direct effect on target insects, Bt can indirectly affect other organisms in the food chain. Furthermore, they can also exert an off-target activity on various soil and terrestrial invertebrates, and the frequent acquisition of virulence factors unrelated to major insecticidal toxins can extend the Bt host range to vertebrates, including humans. Even in the absence of direct detrimental effects, the exposure to Bt treatment may affect non-target organisms by reducing prey base and its nutritional value, resulting in delayed alleviation of their viability”**
Bt anti microbial and anti fungal properties, as well as being a mycorrhiza inhibitor can be extremely detrimental to container growth.
In your current grow, mosquito dunks are a viable option if you’re being overrun by them. If you’re not being overwhelmed though it may do more harm than good, especially with your attempted applications of great white.
However, if in the future you move toward a more organic soil food web based grow you’re going to want to avoid it. Any introduction of an outside bacterium not naturally part of the food web will cause an imbalance. That imbalance will cause problems. A healthy balanced soil food web will take care of any pests on its own. They either will not be able to compete or will become fodder for the food web. Members like @Gee64 haven’t seen a pest in years and they use zero pesticides whether organic or non organic.
In western society we’ve become accustomed to viewing bugs as problems that cause symptoms which simply isn’t true. Unwanted bugs are symptoms of an unbalanced food web. A wide variety of the pests and viruses we see today are a direct result of us applying man made fertilizers and weakening our plants and soils. We’ve literally opened the door and invited them in by insisting we knew better than nature. Almost all of our plant problems can be traced directly back to our use of commercial fertilizers.
I say all that to say this.. Short term, mosquito dunks do exactly what they say, effectively. Long term though, it’s not a viable solution and the risks become exponentially greater, especially in a smaller ecosystem.
**Reference for anyone interested:
However, if you move into TLO/LOS or utilize the soil food web, it’s not a good idea. As we study it’s use more and more we’ve found long term undesirable effects:
“For instance, upon introduction to soil habitats, Bt strains can affect indigenous microorganisms, such as bacteria and fungi, and further establish complex relationships with local plants, ranging from a mostly beneficial demeanor, to pathogenesis-like plant colonization. By exerting a direct effect on target insects, Bt can indirectly affect other organisms in the food chain. Furthermore, they can also exert an off-target activity on various soil and terrestrial invertebrates, and the frequent acquisition of virulence factors unrelated to major insecticidal toxins can extend the Bt host range to vertebrates, including humans. Even in the absence of direct detrimental effects, the exposure to Bt treatment may affect non-target organisms by reducing prey base and its nutritional value, resulting in delayed alleviation of their viability”**
Bt anti microbial and anti fungal properties, as well as being a mycorrhiza inhibitor can be extremely detrimental to container growth.
In your current grow, mosquito dunks are a viable option if you’re being overrun by them. If you’re not being overwhelmed though it may do more harm than good, especially with your attempted applications of great white.
However, if in the future you move toward a more organic soil food web based grow you’re going to want to avoid it. Any introduction of an outside bacterium not naturally part of the food web will cause an imbalance. That imbalance will cause problems. A healthy balanced soil food web will take care of any pests on its own. They either will not be able to compete or will become fodder for the food web. Members like @Gee64 haven’t seen a pest in years and they use zero pesticides whether organic or non organic.
In western society we’ve become accustomed to viewing bugs as problems that cause symptoms which simply isn’t true. Unwanted bugs are symptoms of an unbalanced food web. A wide variety of the pests and viruses we see today are a direct result of us applying man made fertilizers and weakening our plants and soils. We’ve literally opened the door and invited them in by insisting we knew better than nature. Almost all of our plant problems can be traced directly back to our use of commercial fertilizers.
I say all that to say this.. Short term, mosquito dunks do exactly what they say, effectively. Long term though, it’s not a viable solution and the risks become exponentially greater, especially in a smaller ecosystem.
**Reference for anyone interested:
Dissecting the Environmental Consequences of Bacillus thuringiensis Application for Natural Ecosystems
Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt), a natural pathogen of different invertebrates, primarily insects, is widely used as a biological control agent. While Bt-based preparations are claimed to be safe for non-target organisms due to the immense host specificity ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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- #140
lootznbootz
Well-Known Member
You have evolved my journal @Keffka!
I haven’t added a dunk since we checked on the res but I won’t add any more as we let the latest attempts do their thing.
I haven’t been home the past 2 days so they’ve been left alone for the most part since they were watered we’ll see how they are doing today and if I find a bunch of dead bodies laying around