Lootz Returns! Multi-Tent Grow In Soil With LED COBs & LM301H

You have evolved my journal @Keffka!

I haven’t added a dunk since we checked on the res but I won’t add any more as we let the latest attempts do their thing.

I haven’t been home the past 2 days so they’ve been left alone for the most part since they were watered we’ll see how they are doing today and if I find a bunch of dead bodies laying around
I have a very strong suspicion once you’ve established a wet dry cycle fg won’t be an issue any more. Growing soil with “organic” nutrients is going to have bugs. It’s a fact.. If you don’t have bugs then your environment is extremely hostile toward life. Check all these springtails out:
76E06C4B-9A45-43CB-84D6-2BF754AF52D5.jpeg
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That’s a good sign.. life enjoys your environment.. it’s moving around, aerating stuff, decomposing, breaking down organic matter, releasing nutrients. FG means you’ve got some good organic matter in your environment and they want it and nothing is standing in their way. The wet dry cycle will handle them as they can’t repopulate as quickly, and fungus and bacteria comes online to fight back.. If you’ve got EWC and compost, I’d top dress that and see if you can get some nematode action going.
 
I get a ton of springtails in my pots. I figure they must come in with my worm castings and compost. They don't seem harmful in any way, but a little annoying as they jump around. Pretty incredible how far they can go relative to their body size.
 
I get a ton of springtails in my pots. I figure they must come in with my compost. They don't seem harmful in any way, but a little annoying as they jump around. Pretty incredible how far they can go relative to their body size.
That’s where I get them from as well.. They can be annoying, unsightly, and a bit freaky especially when you top water and they flood up in the thousands lol. However they’re amazing for helping to breakdown organic matter into fungi and bacteria sized pieces, not to mention free aeration and the nutrients they release on death.
 
@Azimuth and @Keffka i want you both to know I voted for you for the contest and expect to see both of you with new badges under your name soon!
You all are so freaking helpful!
I will be replying with more questions with more depth soon as I get out of bed and get my morning bowl and tea/coffee
 
I have a very strong suspicion once you’ve established a wet dry cycle fg won’t be an issue any more. Growing soil with “organic” nutrients is going to have bugs. It’s a fact.. If you don’t have bugs then your environment is extremely hostile toward life. Check all these springtails out:
76E06C4B-9A45-43CB-84D6-2BF754AF52D5.jpeg
1396D783-6428-4F8B-A76A-2DB972F482FA.jpeg


That’s a good sign.. life enjoys your environment.. it’s moving around, aerating stuff, decomposing, breaking down organic matter, releasing nutrients. FG means you’ve got some good organic matter in your environment and they want it and nothing is standing in their way. The wet dry cycle will handle them as they can’t repopulate as quickly, and fungus and bacteria comes online to fight back.. If you’ve got EWC and compost, I’d top dress that and see if you can get some nematode action going.
This is encouraging to hear actually!
* I was wondering if I could or should do this. I saw some when I bought the perlite and such and thought EWC could be a huge help.
Are you setup to brew teas? AACT can set off a microbe and fungus explosion in your pots and really get stuff going.
Ive never brewed a tea BUT since using RO they suggest to aerate their nutrients for 24 hours prior to feeding
I have the equipment I would use for a tea in my cloner bucket at the moment. Id either have to wait for them to finish and get roots or buy a new pump and stones. Its definitely doable tho.

The more I can lean into organics without bottles IM ALL FOR IT!
I've been sourcing materials to be able to build and cook my own soil space is slightly an issue for it tho so Im trying to figure out how I can make that work, but again the more we lean into organics the better!
 
This is encouraging to hear actually!
* I was wondering if I could or should do this. I saw some when I bought the perlite and such and thought EWC could be a huge help.

Ive never brewed a tea BUT since using RO they suggest to aerate their nutrients for 24 hours prior to feeding
I have the equipment I would use for a tea in my cloner bucket at the moment. Id either have to wait for them to finish and get roots or buy a new pump and stones. Its definitely doable tho.

The more I can lean into organics without bottles IM ALL FOR IT!
I've been sourcing materials to be able to build and cook my own soil space is slightly an issue for it tho so Im trying to figure out how I can make that work, but again the more we lean into organics the better!

Ok yep we can get you setup no problem and we can get you off those bottles no problem as well.. EWC and perlite are two of the biggest keys in getting off the liquids. Some liquids are ok like FF big bloom for teas and Fish fert (Hydrolyzed fish) for myco feeding and anything else that isn’t chelated. Keep that word in mind, chelated, that’s what we want to avoid in our organic grows, however as you’ll quickly find, chelated nutrients are the overwhelming majority of liquid nutes organic and non organic.

Chelated nutrients are essentially you force feeding the nutrients down the plants throat without any regard to what it actually needs in that moment. We want to move away from feeding the plant, that’s not our job. We want to feed the soil.. The plant can feed itself and enlist help to feed itself from the soil when it needs to if it’s available. We can avoid all sorts of common problems and ailments just by building out a layered and spiked soil, and the plant will then choose what to eat on its own schedule.

You’re going to see a very simple and easy to attain version of this in the journal I’m doing now. All I needed was a decent organic potting soil, perlite, EWC, and some 4-4-4 all purpose organic fert. That’s all you really need to run your plant from seedling to harvest if you prepared it properly ahead of time.

I’m gonna add in some extra flourishes here and there only because I’m looking to accomplish specific things, but to get growing TLO/LOS style is really simple.

The SIP already caught your attention, TLO/LOS is a natural extension of that. Just like the SIP let’s the plant dictate it’s water consumption, TLO/LOS let’s the plant dictate nutrient consumption from organic/all natural sources.

If you PM me your location (or post it here if you’re cool with that) I can try to help you run down some of your stuff. Like I said though, you really only need quality organic potting soil, EWC and perlite to run a fully organic LOS grow. All the amendments and extra stuff is for really dialing in your mixes for your environment and strains and for when you want to recycle your soil.
 
The plants were watered 12/21
I haven't done anything but turn the pots slightly. They all seem to have some bright green growth after the water. Lower branching reaching up a bit on all of them except for the CC1 she's had it the worst and you can tell by her development compared to the other plants.

I took these pictures yesterday 12/23 around 4pm about an hour after lights on
These pictures are 2 days since watering on the 12/21

PGC
in the back
PBK in the middle
CC in the front
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Humidity was still very high and easy to maintain because of moisture in the pots.

PGC
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PGC
676C7D04-5C89-4FA4-9A5B-F0712878BCEA.jpeg


PBK 2
FB3BEFB1-9158-4246-8F93-5FB3F31C0196.jpeg


CC 2
F1E87D3F-4364-4B89-A566-AB0427597D09.jpeg


CC 1
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When they recover from the transplant and dry out a bit, I'd like to do a light defoil and remove a couple of those leaves totally blocking out the lower branches.
Also, as they grow out just a tad bit I will LST the branches at the top node they are just a tad too small at the moment to do so.

I will be back home tonight so I will be able to upload more pictures to track our watering more closely.
 
Chelated nutrients are essentially you force feeding the nutrients down the plants throat without any regard to what it actually needs in that moment.
@Keffka , can you talk a bit more about chelation, what it means, how it's done, how it works, positives and negatives?

I had no success feeding my Jadam nutes through my reservoir when it was isolated from the soil in my SIPs. I'm hoping that changes now that i have soil at the reservoir level. I know in a normal organic grow that microbes break down the amendments and make them available to the plant, but with my nutes, microbes break them down as part of the extract process so I figured they work pretty well, but no joy, at least when they were isolated from the soil.
 
Thanks, Lootz! I (we?) appreciate it. :green_heart:

Thanks @Azimuth for quoting it because I didn’t even see it lol.

Thank you to you Lootz! Win or lose, this is a great community to be a part of that inspires me to help others! I had a helpful person stop in on my first journal and it changed everything, his only request was that I spread the knowledge once confident in it. I just ask when you find yourself in a similar situation you spread knowledge as well.

:Namaste:
 
I just ask when you find yourself in a similar situation you spread knowledge as well.

:Namaste:
No doubt!
This shouldn’t be a problem as I’ll talk to anyone willing to listen about what I’ve learned or learning when it comes to growing.
I may need to be better at reading the room and realizing most people don’t nerd out as much as I do about plants none the less 😂
 

Water update

No, we’re not watering just checking in on them to see how they are doing.
They look like they have some new growth upon opening the tent.
Although still looking a bit overwatered still.
0FB87F5D-DE88-425C-A1A0-9B89B0EFA04E.jpeg


CC2
C5412868-35A3-4A39-B506-07A301D14888.jpeg


PBK2
EBAA9AB7-A1C4-4BA7-B858-C8C79296AA18.jpeg


PGC2
B3B3F9B0-9A3C-4FAB-8C3C-9ED39025A231.jpeg


PGC1
D5EC99A2-82C5-483B-9316-9BB9576F355C.jpeg


CC1 Looking the worse of the bunch. Also, I turned her, and her pot feels very light already which doesn't seem right.
I am going to let her go tho because I clearly don't remember what an empty pot feels like. :laughtwo:
7AA35D0F-436C-49AE-BD9B-41910E438E83.jpeg

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I am fighting the urge to do a light defoil of the large fan leaves to allow light to the lower nodes that are reaching up but blocked for light.

The CC2 is doing much better and has roots coming out of the bottom of the pot
0D03E3B5-B777-4ECB-961B-0A08CB9DF58A.jpeg


I noticed these while checking on the fungus gnat activity which for the most part slowed down a bit, I think.
I only spent a little bit in the tent and zipped it back up
I did see a couple here and there, but I won’t stress them too much more than that as @Keffka mentioned I should be happy they want my soil. (Auto correct tried to put soul there and I think that hilarious)

Anyway, we’re letting things dry out a bit.

I hope everyone enjoys their holiday.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for stopping by!
 
@Keffka , can you talk a bit more about chelation, what it means, how it's done, how it works, positives and negatives?

I had no success feeding my Jadam nutes through my reservoir when it was isolated from the soil in my SIPs. I'm hoping that changes now that i have soil at the reservoir level. I know in a normal organic grow that microbes break down the amendments and make them available to the plant, but with my nutes, microbes break them down as part of the extract process so I figured they work pretty well, but no joy, at least when they were isolated from the soil.

This is interesting that you mention this because it was one of my big concerns with the SIP, the ability to effectively deliver nutrients from the reservoir to the soil. The wicking action concerned me, as it’s an additional barrier/distance for the nutrients to traverse. Since so many of the interactions happen at a cellular level dependent on proteins, transporters, etc. having that additional obstacle seems like it would interfere with movement at a minimum. I suspect you’re sidestepping this by eliminating said barrier and bringing your reservoir to the soil. I’ll look further into your Jadam so I can fully understand the intricacies. I know they’re effective I’m just not informed on their process and don’t want to make many more assumptions about what was happening.

Also.. I apologize for the delay on chelation.. Christmas stuff with the family.. I am gonna post what I wrote out in the following message
 
To begin with off the top, chelation and chelates aren’t a bad thing at all. They have many uses, and have the potential to help us remediate the soil in many environments that have toxic levels of metals. They’re also very effective at doing what they’re designed to do. Chelation involves ionic and molecular bonds and a whole bunch of heady chemistry, but we’re gonna simplify that since that’s not very accessible to the average grower.

In its simplest definition, a chelate is a compound that is bonded to a metal atom at two or more points.

For our purposes, it helps to know where the term comes from. First though, it’s pronounced Key-Late. I have a hard time absorbing info if I’m unsure of the pronunciation and it distracts me.

The word chelate is derived from the Greek word for “claw.” This is a useful visualization of a chelate. The chelate bonds itself to a metal atom in a clawlike fashion. The different chelates are typically called chelate agent(s). For us, a chelate is an agent that bonds to a micronutrient, making the micronutrient more readily available for uptake in plant cells. Most of the micronutrients we use in growing aren’t readily available to the plant in their basic form.

This is because metals like iron and zinc have a positive charge, and the pores on our plants where the metals would enter have a negative charge. The positively charged micronutrients cannot enter through the negatively charged pores. This is where chelates come in. When a chelate bonds to a micronutrient, it surrounds individual ions and gives them a negative or neutral charge, allowing the nutrient to enter through the negatively charged pore and travel into the plant’s tissues. This is what I mean when I say force feeding. It is taking a nutrient that otherwise wouldn’t be able to enter in its current form, and making it supernaturally available to the plant.

In many instances you will see EDTA, DTPA, and/or EDDHA on the sides of your bottles.. Think of them as micronutrient delivery systems for the root zone. Envelopes if you will, that can pass right through the plants barriers and deliver that micronutrient. These synthetic delivery systems are foreign to the plant and so they aren’t absorbed. They’re sent back out into the rhizosphere to collect another micronutrient to drive it back through.

As we can see, chelated nutrients are highly effective at delivering their exact nutrients directly into the plant, regardless of what’s going on. There’s quite a few positives to this.. Micronutrient deficiencies are difficult to overcome with just applying the nutrient to the soil. They get immobilized, washed away, leached out, or generally are in a form incompatible to the plant. If they’re chelated however, all of that becomes irrelevant, the micronutrients are bonded in place and become available to the plant.

Now, for the bad.. EDTA is one of the most popular chelates used in agriculture and unfortunately it is not quickly decomposed by microbes. It is also toxic to them. That’s a one two punch to our food web. We want microbes, we want them badly, and introducing chelates will literally wipe them out.

They will also hang around a long time since they cannot be decomposed quickly, essentially irradiating the area against microbial growth.

Not only are they toxic, they are serving a purpose the plant already can do. The plant can send out its own exudates that act as chelators. These exudates also are what call in the microbes and fungi to do their food web job. Any time we introduce a process already naturally handled we unbalance our web. Nature has been chelating by itself for millennia.

Now for the worse.. those synthetic envelopes(chelates) are nothing more than synthetic salts.. synthetic salts are murderous to our microlife.. as the soil dries out it these salts will devastate our micro populations, and because they take so long to breakdown they continue to make the area around them completely inhospitable to the beneficial life. Organic acids like Humic, fulvic, and ascorbic also aren’t very beneficial to us. They make nutrients available to the roots in unnatural amounts similar to these synthetic chelates, this is again akin to force feeding the plant. We dont want to make decisions for the plant, and since the plant is capable of sending out exudates that naturally chelate nutrients, we have no reason to apply them.

This is a fairly quick and dirty rundown on chelation.. we can expand on any topics any one has any questions on
 
To begin with off the top, chelation and chelates aren’t a bad thing at all. They have many uses, and have the potential to help us remediate the soil in many environments that have toxic levels of metals. They’re also very effective at doing what they’re designed to do. Chelation involves ionic and molecular bonds and a whole bunch of heady chemistry, but we’re gonna simplify that since that’s not very accessible to the average grower.

In its simplest definition, a chelate is a compound that is bonded to a metal atom at two or more points.

For our purposes, it helps to know where the term comes from. First though, it’s pronounced Key-Late. I have a hard time absorbing info if I’m unsure of the pronunciation and it distracts me.

The word chelate is derived from the Greek word for “claw.” This is a useful visualization of a chelate. The chelate bonds itself to a metal atom in a clawlike fashion. The different chelates are typically called chelate agent(s). For us, a chelate is an agent that bonds to a micronutrient, making the micronutrient more readily available for uptake in plant cells. Most of the micronutrients we use in growing aren’t readily available to the plant in their basic form.

This is because metals like iron and zinc have a positive charge, and the pores on our plants where the metals would enter have a negative charge. The positively charged micronutrients cannot enter through the negatively charged pores. This is where chelates come in. When a chelate bonds to a micronutrient, it surrounds individual ions and gives them a negative or neutral charge, allowing the nutrient to enter through the negatively charged pore and travel into the plant’s tissues. This is what I mean when I say force feeding. It is taking a nutrient that otherwise wouldn’t be able to enter in its current form, and making it supernaturally available to the plant.

In many instances you will see EDTA, DTPA, and/or EDDHA on the sides of your bottles.. Think of them as micronutrient delivery systems for the root zone. Envelopes if you will, that can pass right through the plants barriers and deliver that micronutrient. These synthetic delivery systems are foreign to the plant and so they aren’t absorbed. They’re sent back out into the rhizosphere to collect another micronutrient to drive it back through.

As we can see, chelated nutrients are highly effective at delivering their exact nutrients directly into the plant, regardless of what’s going on. There’s quite a few positives to this.. Micronutrient deficiencies are difficult to overcome with just applying the nutrient to the soil. They get immobilized, washed away, leached out, or generally are in a form incompatible to the plant. If they’re chelated however, all of that becomes irrelevant, the micronutrients are bonded in place and become available to the plant.

Now, for the bad.. EDTA is one of the most popular chelates used in agriculture and unfortunately it is not quickly decomposed by microbes. It is also toxic to them. That’s a one two punch to our food web. We want microbes, we want them badly, and introducing chelates will literally wipe them out.

They will also hang around a long time since they cannot be decomposed quickly, essentially irradiating the area against microbial growth.

Not only are they toxic, they are serving a purpose the plant already can do. The plant can send out its own exudates that act as chelators. These exudates also are what call in the microbes and fungi to do their food web job. Any time we introduce a process already naturally handled we unbalance our web. Nature has been chelating by itself for millennia.

Now for the worse.. those synthetic envelopes(chelates) are nothing more than synthetic salts.. synthetic salts are murderous to our microlife.. as the soil dries out it these salts will devastate our micro populations, and because they take so long to breakdown they continue to make the area around them completely inhospitable to the beneficial life. Organic acids like Humic, fulvic, and ascorbic also aren’t very beneficial to us. They make nutrients available to the roots in unnatural amounts similar to these synthetic chelates, this is again akin to force feeding the plant. We dont want to make decisions for the plant, and since the plant is capable of sending out exudates that naturally chelate nutrients, we have no reason to apply them.

This is a fairly quick and dirty rundown on chelation.. we can expand on any topics any one has any questions on
This post made me feel "smart", if only because I understood the information being conveyed!

Good job @Keffka!
 
This post made me feel "smart", if only because I understood the information being conveyed!

Good job @Keffka!
Right?! The way he breaks it down it’s like…
Questions? How could I have questions after and explanation like that 😂
 
This post made me feel "smart", if only because I understood the information being conveyed!

Good job @Keffka!

Right?! The way he breaks it down it’s like…
Questions? How could I have questions after and explanation like that 😂

No doubt! Thank you! There’s tons of information out there for these complex topics but it can be really hard to grasp especially when we start talking about covalent, ionic, and hydrogen bonds, plasmalemmas and all kinds of cellular and molecular biology stuff. I can feel peoples eyes glaze over lol.. So I try to turn these ideas into something more relatable and accessible. I’m happy that it seems to be working!

Most people have the ability to understand all of these topics regardless of complexity. You just have to know your audience and understand that really technical language isn’t as efficient for someone without a degree in that specific field. The technical definitions and explanations help those who already have a foundation of knowledge in the subject, they just create a barrier for learning to everyone else.

I’m science minded but believe in free access to all knowledge for everyone. Technical speak and industry lingo are paywalls to knowledge to me.. They do that crap so people have to spend money to be educated and so people can justify their jobs. I don’t agree with it at all.. Any topic can be relatable to any human if you can find a common thread.
 
I’m science minded but believe in free access to all knowledge for everyone. Technical speak and industry lingo are paywalls to knowledge to me.. They do that crap so people have to spend money to be educated and so people can justify their jobs. I don’t agree with it at all.. Any topic can be relatable to any human if you can find a common thread.
This is the truest statement ever! I was just talking about this when someone asked me where I learned to grow.
I may not have all the answers but to someone who knows nothing of it, or admittedly "can't grow a plant to save their life" they listen or watch on in awe as I work in my garden.
I say this same thing "I just read and did."
Ancient people didn't have textbooks or degrees they had shared knowledge and experiences.
 
There’s tons of information out there for these complex topics but it can be really hard to grasp especially when we start talking about covalent, ionic, and hydrogen bonds, plasmalemmas and all kinds of cellular and molecular biology stuff.
Now you're talking my language! (NOT) :laughtwo:
 
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