LKABudMan Grows A Fruit Punch Auto With The Vivosun Smart Grow System! - Featuring Herbies Seeds, GeoFlora & Dynomyco

[Emilya Green]

That's a great point Az. Even if you're a master at watering, the SIP still does it better (right @Emilya Green )

I am realizing that my watering method was a compromise and not as efficient as letting the plants decide for themselves how much water they need. While I still believe in developing that first rootball in the solo cup by using the wet/dry method, after that good start I now realize that I need to get out of the way and let the roots take control, or as I have preached for years, quit thinking for the plant. I also have found a new respect for that guy that always defied my wet/dry cycle ideas, and just gave them a little bit of water each day. It turns out that he was/is on to something and if he had only known about the air gap, there may have not ever been a wet/dry cycle based watering thread, because I would have been impressed early on by his plants, as I was when @Buds Buddy showed us his SIP plant.

 

[gwhunran]

Serious and humble question.
What is the practical difference in SIP and what I am doing with my flood and drains.
There is no media in my trays. The net pots have clay pebbles. Nothing in my tray but roots.
Every two hours the tray floods for 15 minutes, then nute water drains and and the wet roots sit in the dark tray for one hour and forty-five minutes, then repeat, the whole lights on period. The pump runs one or two times during lights out just to keep everything wet but it might not be necessary.

How could they have more air available than this?

 

[LKABudMan]

Serious and humble question.
What is the practical difference in SIP and what I am doing with my flood and drains.

Organic soil vs. hydro

There is no media in my trays. The net pots have clay pebbles. Nothing in my tray but roots.
Every two hours the tray floods for 15 minutes, then nute water drains and and the wet roots sit in the dark tray for one hour and forty-five minutes, then repeat, the whole lights on period. The pump runs one or two times during lights out just to keep everything wet but it might not be necessary.

How could they have more air available than this?

For that matter, how can they have more air than my RDWC with airstones in each bucket? They don't. I'm betting hydro still grows quicker too. But for a soil/coco grower this is a really good way to let the plant use as much water as it can without over-watering.

 

[LKABudMan]

I am realizing that my watering method was a compromise and not as efficient as letting the plants decide for themselves how much water they need. While I still believe in developing that first rootball in the solo cup by using the wet/dry method, after that good start I now realize that I need to get out of the way and let the roots take control, or as I have preached for years, quit thinking for the plant. I also have found a new respect for that guy that always defied my wet/dry cycle ideas, and just gave them a little bit of water each day. It turns out that he was/is on to something and if he had only known about the air gap, there may have not ever been a wet/dry cycle based watering thread, because I would have been impressed early on by his plants, as I was when @Buds Buddy showed us his SIP plant.

Thanks @Emilya Green , that all makes perfect sense. I need to ask, though, why you still believe the first rootball needs to be developed using the wet/dry method? Could going straight to SIP make better roots for the sprout? Does that first rootball promote different roots than those needed for the SIP?

I only ask because it seemed to take a couple of days for my sprout w/ rootball to acclimate to the SIP. Of course, I can't complain where it is now at 29 days Maybe gong straight to SIP would have caused slower growth at the beginning. Something to test...

 

[gwhunran]

In the RWC, most of the roots are in aerated water. My res. is also well aerated water, and that may be as much O2 as they can take up, but when my tray drains, the roots are totally in the air except for the ones that may be in the lowest parts of tray that doesn't completely drain.
I guess your soil versus hydro may be the real meat of the matter.

 

[Emilya Green]

Thanks @Emilya Green , that all makes perfect sense. I need to ask, though, why you still believe the first rootball needs to be developed using the wet/dry method? Could going straight to SIP make better roots for the sprout? Does that first rootball promote different roots than those needed for the SIP?

I only ask because it seemed to take a couple of days for my sprout w/ rootball to acclimate to the SIP. Of course, I can't complain where it is now at 29 days Maybe gong straight to SIP would have caused slower growth at the beginning. Something to test...

I always considered that first tight rootball as a good jumping off place for any other method or container... but I am open to experimentation. Are you recommending starting in the final container or something smaller?

 

[Azimuth]

What is the practical difference in SIP and what I am doing with my flood and drains.

Same basic concept of getting air directly to the roots. You do it with your drain cycle. The plants need a few basic things; air, water and nutes are the big three and most growers don't give their roots enough air. The Em's wet/dry cycle is one way to do it, but even in that there are periods where the soil is both too wet and too dry which pauses growth while waiting for conditions to improve. @Bill284 accomplishes the extra air through additional perlite layers in his soil mix which also gives him superior drainage.

All are approaches to help make sure the air component isn't the weak link. It is such a big factor that I have yet to hear of any convert to this air idea regret the decision.

For that matter, how can they have more air than my RDWC with airstones in each bucket? They don't. I'm betting hydro still grows quicker too. But for a soil/coco grower this is a really good way to let the plant use as much water as it can without over-watering.

I don't think it's about better or worse but rather giving your plants every opportunity to succeed in your given medium. But all of the increased air systems seem to grow better and bigger plants than those without it.

Thanks @Emilya Green , that all makes perfect sense. I need to ask, though, why you still believe the first rootball needs to be developed using the wet/dry method? Could going straight to SIP make better roots for the sprout? Does that first rootball promote different roots than those needed for the SIP?

I'm trialing a plant direct seeded into the final pot right now. It took a couple of weeks to get its groove on but now it is growing super well. I've found that soil based plants I transition to SIPs take about that same 2 week window as the roots seem to have to get adjusted to generally wetter conditions than they're used to. So, direct seeding can save you some transition time to its new root structure.

I only ask because it seemed to take a couple of days for my sprout w/ rootball to acclimate to the SIP. Of course, I can't complain where it is now at 29 days Maybe gong straight to SIP would have caused slower growth at the beginning. Something to test...

I think the opposite, growth is going to be faster, sooner. I have noticed that I seem to have better luck initially keeping just a small amount of water in the reservoir, rather than having it filled from the begining. For smaller pots anyway, the mix stays too wet on a full rez to get them started strongly right away. But, once they have found their footing, I fill the reservoir and try to keep it that way at least daily. Same issue I had trying to clone in a SIP. Too wet and the cuttings rotted. That concept works in a Hempy cloner but in that case the air is in the perlite surrounding the roots whereas with a SIP it sits below the roots which of course don't yet exist on a cutting.

 

[Azimuth]

In the RWC, most of the roots are in aerated water. My res. is also well aerated water, and that may be as much O2 as they can take up, but when my tray drains, the roots are totally in the air except for the ones that may be in the lowest parts of tray that doesn't completely drain.
I guess your soil versus hydro may be the real meat of the matter.

I think aeroponics is probably the ultimate way to grow. In your RWC the amount of air is limited to the amount of air the stones can pump out. Maybe that exceeds the roots needs maybe it doesn't. In an aeroponics setup the roots are essentially suspended in moist air, definitely maxing that aspect out.

But all these approaches converge on the concept that air to the roots is extremely beneficial.

 

[Azimuth]

I always considered that first tight rootball as a good jumping off place for any other method or container... but I am open to experimentation. Are you recommending starting in the final container or something smaller?

I am. Unlike a typicall soil grow where you are trying to build a root ball by constraining the roots in a limited territory, in a SIP the roots will be mostly the tiny feeder roots so there is, at least in my judgement, no advantage of the limited pot/up-pot strategy.

Plus, with such a wet root ball all the time transplanting that into a larger container would be a challenge. I'd rather have the initail roots explore the final container as much as they want. And some of them will be used to being mostly submerged so up-potting into a deeper container requires some time for them to reestablish the "roots in the reservoir zone" thing.

I think better to avoid the entire up-pot issue.

 

[LKABudMan]

I always considered that first tight rootball as a good jumping off place for any other method or container... but I am open to experimentation. Are you recommending starting in the final container or something smaller?

I'm not sure throwing a seedling into a large SIP container is the way to do either. Then again...

I'm trialing a plant direct seeded into the final pot right now. It took a couple of weeks to get its groove on but now it is growing super well. I've found that soil based plants I transition to SIPs take about that same 2 week window as the roots seem to have to get adjusted to generally wetter conditions than they're used to. So, direct seeding can save you some transition time to its new root structure.

So, if you planted 5 seeds in SIP and 5 in a solo cup and transplanted later, which would be bigger at 4 weeks? Either way it's going to take time to get it's footing in the SIP, right? Then again, are you wasting time creating a tight rootball that isn't really used in the SIP?

I think the opposite, growth is going to be faster, sooner. I have noticed that I seem to have better luck initially keeping just a small amount of water in the reservoir, rather than having it filled from the begining. For smaller pots anyway, the mix stays too wet on a full rez to get them started strongly right away. But, once they have found their footing, I fill the reservoir and try to keep it that way at least daily. Same issue I had trying to clone in a SIP. Too wet and the cuttings rotted. That concept works in a Hempy cloner but in that case the air is in the perlite surrounding the roots whereas with a SIP it sits below the roots which of course don't yet exist on a cutting.

This is what I'm worried about with a seed in a SIP. The air gap doesn't help until the roots get down there. Until then it's going to struggle. The tip about not filling the res all the way until they get their footing would help with that, though.

I am. Unlike a typicall soil grow where you are trying to build a root ball by constraining the roots in a limited territory, in a SIP the roots will be mostly the tiny feeder roots so there is, at least in my judgement, no advantage of the limited pot/up-pot strategy.

Plus, with such a wet root ball all the time transplpanting that into a larger container would be a challenge. I'd rather have the initail roots explore the final container as much as they want. And some of them will be used to being mostly submerged so up-potting into a deeper container requires some time for them to reestablish the "roots in the reservoir zone" thing.

I think better to avoid the entire up-pot issue.

I'd like to think there is some middle ground, like a smaller SIP pot. You're right, though, it's still going to need to be transplanted and need to find the new res. Considering where Pebbles is at 4 weeks, I'd consider doing the same next time (4" pot to SIP). I do want to try a small seedling directly in a SIP, though.

I can see that any intermediate transplanting (like going to a 1g container) is probably counter-productive if your final container is SIP.

I definitely agree that it's all about getting nutes, water, and air to the roots at all times. Any way you can make that happen

 

[Azimuth]

So, if you planted 5 seeds in SIP and 5 in a solo cup and transplanted later, which would be bigger at 4 weeks?

Is the solo cup a sip? If not, then no question in my mind, it is the SIP. My current experiment was planting a seed in my final 2G container. That's probably 2/3rds as tall as a regular 5G bucket. The roots seem to reach the reservoir in about a week. It took another week to get established and then took off.

Assuming you transplanted the solo cup into the SIP at day 15, it then has about a two week adjustment period during which the SIP has already taken off. Not sure you'd ever make up the difference but perhaps in flower it would be harder to tell?

But, whenever you up-pot you start that 2 week adjustment clock, so might as well get it out of the way on days 1-14.

Either way it's going to take time to get it's footing in the SIP, right?

Right. For me it's been about 14-15 days to start noticing the change.

Then again, are you wasting time creating a tight rootball that isn't really used in the SIP?

Right. And, in a SIP most of the roots are feeder roots, not the water seeking roots you cultivated in the wet/dry scenario. So, lot's of time, and more importantly plant resources, growing something it won't end up using.

This is what I'm worried about with a seed in a SIP. The air gap doesn't help until the roots get down there. Until then it's going to struggle. The tip about not filling the res all the way until they get their footing would help with that, though.

I treat it more like I would a normal pot when it's just days old. Water slightly around the stem to have the roots chase the water down to the rez. I do leave a little taste of water in the rez as a sort of prize but I've found keeping the SIP full right from the start kept the medium too moist and I had slower starts because of it. That said, @ReservoirDog strongly disagrees with this approach and keeps his reservoir full from the start I believe.

I'd like to think there is some middle ground, like a smaller SIP pot. You're right, though, it's still going to need to be transplanted and need to find the new res. Considering where Pebbles is at 4 weeks, I'd consider doing the same next time (4" pot to SIP). I do want to try a small seedling directly in a SIP, though.

Do it!

Seriously, I think direct to a SIP overcomes any advantages an up-potting would give you. Really, where's the advantage? I think it better to not disturb the roots once they get going.

I'm happy to be convinced of some benefit, but I think the 2 week built in transition time delay is eliminated by going direct. Maybe if the smaller pot was also a SIP, but then the lowest water roots have to reestablish themselves.

I can see that any intermediate transplanting (like going to a 1g container) is probably counter-productive if your final container is SIP.

So far that's true for me. I've built them in 9oz, 1L, and 2G containers. Each took about the same time to establish, and each looks better than their non-SIP brotheren (back when I had such a thing)

I definitely agree that it's all about getting nutes, water, and air to the roots at all times. Any way you can make that happen

Amen to that!

 

[ReservoirDog]

I do not use a full reservoir during seedling stage nor do I recommend anyone do so. Ideally you want to make sure there's not too much moisture for the little girl. However, here's the key element to consider:

Moisture gradient. You must offer your plants a moisture gradient from germination. They will instantly recognize that there is more water the deeper it goes. Its genetic code then directs it to find this water asap and begin to develop a special root and then plant morphology based on hydrotropism.

The low reservoir helps to exaggerate the moisture gradient and makes it harder to mistake the conditions for anything else. This is why top watering during early stages is dangerous because you are cancelling out the moisture gradient and potentially interrupting the root's system's hydrotropic development. This stuff is foundational.

So, by all means run a 1/3 res during seedling, this will exaggerate the moisture gradient and motivate roots, which grow a cm per hour at this stage under these conditions, so you need not fear it drying out and having to top water.

When planting in a SIP the recommendation is to plant into a well pre-moistened matrix (that's the time to add amendments) Note that matrix must have 40% perlite. Fill reservoir halfway. water the seed start area thoroughly (500ml). Place seed less than 1/2 inch into matrix. Place cloche atop seed to maintain rh. cloche must have ventilation holes. How much open or closed depends on medium, moisture-holding mediums may utilize more ventilation (peat, los, organic, lots of amendments that hold water, etc - drier stuff would be coco, certain soils. Again, all must have 40% perlite) Cloche can be a ziplock bag with some holes.

I use these grow bags and in the first week or two they are bottom-watered to initiate hydrotropism. I love these bags. They act like geopots, with air pruning roots etc. You can use them as mini SIPs as I do or just in a yogurt container that you put water into so bottom is wetter.

Sorry bout the pic, it’s in an aquarium.

 

[ReservoirDog]

I do not use a full reservoir during seedling stage nor do I recommend anyone do so. Ideally you want to make sure there's not too much moisture for the little girl. However, here's the key element to consider:

Moisture gradient. You must offer your plants a moisture gradient from germination. They will instantly recognize that there is more water the deeper it goes. Its genetic code then directs it to find this water asap and begin to develop a special root and then plant morphology based on hydrotropism.

The low reservoir helps to exaggerate the moisture gradient and makes it harder to mistake the conditions for anything else. This is why top watering during early stages is dangerous because you are cancelling out the moisture gradient and potentially interrupting the root's system's hydrotropic development. This stuff is foundational.

So, by all means run a 1/3 res during seedling, this will exaggerate the moisture gradient and motivate roots, which grow a cm per hour at this stage under these conditions, so you need not fear it drying out and having to top water.

When planting in a SIP the recommendation is to plant into a well pre-moistened matrix (that's the time to add amendments) Note that matrix must have 40% perlite. Fill reservoir halfway. water the seed start area thoroughly (500ml). Place seed less than 1/2 inch into matrix. Place cloche atop seed to maintain rh. cloche must have ventilation holes. How much open or closed depends on medium, moisture-holding mediums may utilize more ventilation (peat, los, organic, lots of amendments that hold water, etc - drier stuff would be coco, certain soils. Again, all must have 40% perlite) Cloche can be a ziplock bag with some holes.

I use these grow bags and in the first week or two they are bottom-watered to initiate hydrotropism. I love these bags. They act like geopots, with air pruning roots etc. You can use them as mini SIPs as I do or just in a yogurt container that you put water into so bottom is wetter.

Sorry bout the pic, it’s in an aquarium.

PS these ones didn’t air prune purposely, I’m running a fogger into the aquarium and rh is 100% so roots love it. I have nutes in the fog also. Just screwing around in the lab, like I do!

 

[ReservoirDog]

Serious and humble question.
What is the practical difference in SIP and what I am doing with my flood and drains.
There is no media in my trays. The net pots have clay pebbles. Nothing in my tray but roots.
Every two hours the tray floods for 15 minutes, then nute water drains and and the wet roots sit in the dark tray for one hour and forty-five minutes, then repeat, the whole lights on period. The pump runs one or two times during lights out just to keep everything wet but it might not be necessary.

How could they have more air available than this?

In nature plants utilize a moisture gradient to generate different root types and arrangements at various depths, or, more accurately, moisture gradients. This is most efficient for them as their genetic disposition is programmed for for what is most typically found in nature, a moisture gradient. SIPs specifically provide a constancy that precludes the plant from having to marshall resources to adapt to the change we constantly implement and can now leverage these resources for creating biomass above-ground. Turns out our watering techniques were leaving a lot of resources on the table.

Plants only require so much air/oxygen. I've surmised that at a certain point there is no increased value. It appears the air-gap SIP, with its constant access to atmospheric oxygen through fill and drain tubes, meets this max, or near as makes no difference. This is merely my own supposition. I say this only because of my personal experience of growing plants in almost half the time this way. It is near-DWC/Hydro growth levels. SIP plants, in our collective experience thus far, can be said to be (easily) using 100% more water. It's gotta be doing something with it!

Secondly, a soil or soilless matrix offers a strong pH buffering capacity, and while deficiencies can still come at you hot and fast in SIPs growing with salt nutes and peat or coco, it's not as fast as DWC or F/D. Hydro growth with some soil-like buffering. AKA, less terrifying. lol. I've grown all three. I ran a grow for a year that was F/D and had some DWC. I have a DWC here at home and plan to run a comparison of clones, two in DWC, two in SIP in same 5x5 under 1100W LED. Preparations take some time. Currently I have one 5x5 running SIPs and I just flipped to flower a week ago.

So the issue with flood and drain is similar to the issue of flood and drought container watering in soil. Each is a compromised state that then requires a new and different compromised state. SIPs eliminate having to be either flooding or draining/droughting, thus plant resources are not directed toward adapting to constant change. You achieve a constant moisture gradient in air-gapped SIPs and this constancy means the plant can use those resources, no longer being used in 'self defence', and create biomass above-ground instead. Giant root systems are not necc., efficient ones are. Left to itself in a constantly unchanging moisture gradient the plant thrives, much like DWC is a constant state (but has no gradient).

Wjy? Because the gradient triggers a hydrotropic response in the plant for ideal root and plant morphology and only a moisture gradient can achieve a hydrotropic response from the plant. That's why I pop seeds in tiny cloth-like pots that can easily be bottom watered to create a moisture gradient from day one.

Non plant-related practical positive differences are the lack of pumps, even a 6 pot connected system runs totally passively with control bucket and gravity. With a large, say, 40-gallon rez you'd only need to mix nutes only 4-5 times per cycle and leave all your time for canopy management (which you're going to need as the growth is pretty intense). For my 6 gallon onboard rez, one week into flower, I last about a week, but I don't have good numbers for you, yet.

It's all about the moisture gradient triggering the most efficient root system which is closest to the natural ideal encoded in genes, and an air gap that oxygenates roots and prevents root rot, and a state of constancy that does not 'distract' plant from its mission of solely creating above-ground biomass.

 

[ReservoirDog]

OK, sorry for the hijack LK, I hope some of it helped.

You can have your thread back now...

 

[InTheShed]

You can have your thread back now...

Sorry, not quite...

I do not use a full reservoir during seedling stage nor do I recommend anyone do so.

Do you let the water wick up into the pot for a certain amount of time before putting a seed in the soil, pre-wetting as it were?

With a large, say, 40-gallon rez you'd only need to mix nutes only 4-5 times per cycle

In a system using synthetic nutes, when would you start adding nutrients to the res as opposed to feeding nutes with the second set of leaves? And if you were to only mix nutes 4-5 times per cycle, how would you decide what strength would they be?

Feel free to answer in my thread if you don't want to take up any more of LKA's real estate!

 

[GreenFingaz]

I am realizing that my watering method was a compromise and not as efficient as letting the plants decide for themselves how much water they need. While I still believe in developing that first rootball in the solo cup by using the wet/dry method, after that good start I now realize that I need to get out of the way and let the roots take control, or as I have preached for years, quit thinking for the plant. I also have found a new respect for that guy that always defied my wet/dry cycle ideas, and just gave them a little bit of water each day. It turns out that he was/is on to something and if he had only known about the air gap, there may have not ever been a wet/dry cycle based watering thread, because I would have been impressed early on by his plants, as I was when @Buds Buddy showed us his SIP plant.

Is the solo cup a sip? If not, then no question in my mind, it is the SIP. My current experiment was planting a seed in my final 2G container. That's probably 2/3rds as tall as a regular 5G bucket. The roots seem to reach the reservoir in about a week. It took another week to get established and then took off.

Assuming you transplanted the solo cup into the SIP at day 15, it then has about a two week adjustment period during which the SIP has already taken off. Not sure you'd ever make up the difference but perhaps in flower it would be harder to tell?

But, whenever you up-pot you start that 2 week adjustment clock, so might as well get it out of the way on days 1-14.


Right. For me it's been about 14-15 days to start noticing the change.


Right. And, in a SIP most of the roots are feeder roots, not the water seeking roots you cultivated in the wet/dry scenario. So, lot's of time, and more importantly plant resources, growing something it won't end up using.


I treat it more like I would a normal pot when it's just days old. Water slightly around the stem to have the roots chase the water down to the rez. I do leave a little taste of water in the rez as a sort of prize but I've found keeping the SIP full right from the start kept the medium too moist and I had slower starts because of it. That said, @ReservoirDog strongly disagrees with this approach and keeps his reservoir full from the start I believe.


Do it!

Seriously, I think direct to a SIP overcomes any advantages an up-potting would give you. Really, where's the advantage? I think it better to not disturb the roots once they get going.

I'm happy to be convinced of some benefit, but I think the 2 week built in transition time delay is eliminated by going direct. Maybe if the smaller pot was also a SIP, but then the lowest water roots have to reestablish themselves.


So far that's true for me. I've built them in 9oz, 1L, and 2G containers. Each took about the same time to establish, and each looks better than their non-SIP brotheren (back when I had such a thing)


Amen to that!

Just sounds like the perfect home for the roots. Just wish I had the space I dont think theres a such thing as a small sip grow

 

[Azimuth]

Just sounds like the perfect home for the roots. Just wish I had the space I dont think theres a such thing as a small sip grow

I've got some in 9oz cups. They  are bigger and healthier than their non-sip 9oz counterparts but they'll only get so big in that size container. My 1L pots are probably the minimum size I'd flower in, and those obviously aren't all that big.

 

[GreenFingaz]

I've got some in 9oz cups. They  are bigger and healthier than their non-sip 9oz counterparts but they'll only get so big in that size container. My 1L pots are probably the minimum size I'd flower in, and those obviously aren't all that big.

Aarrr I see what ur saying, So in a 2x4 space wat size would be best just so i have an idea of what could be expected.

 

[LKABudMan]

OK, sorry for the hijack LK, I hope some of it helped.

You can have your thread back now...

No apology needed, that was very helpful. I did a little more reading on Hydrotropism and the moisture gradient, and what you've been saying is starting to make sense If Hydrotropism is causing specific root growth based on the moisture gradient, then by top watering you are changing the gradient and confusing the roots. Especially at first.

It's also the best argument I've heard for starting in the SIP.

Do you let the water wick up into the pot for a certain amount of time before putting a seed in the soil, pre-wetting as it were?

I would think this would be the best way to get the proper moisture gradient on the pot.

In a system using synthetic nutes, when would you start adding nutrients to the res as opposed to feeding nutes with the second set of leaves? And if you were to only mix nutes 4-5 times per cycle, how would you decide what strength would they be?

Feel free to answer in my thread if you don't want to take up any more of LKA's real estate!

I see RD answered in your thread HERE.

Aarrr I see what ur saying, So in a 2x4 space wat size would be best just so i have an idea of what could be expected.

I have a clone outside in a 9" SIP pot. The SIP reservoir doesn't hold much, so you'd probably need to fill it 2-3 times a day. But it would easily fit in a 2x4 tent, and they come in different sizes.

20220922_112415.jpg

• LKABudMan
• Oct 7, 2022

Clone in 9" SIP pot