Landrace Genetics 101

[TorturedSoul]

Yours could be different. If it has been crossed with something else at any point, if it was worked with by the breeder and he/she selected for shorter flowering in multiple generations, et cetera.

Your chosen light (dark) cycle hours would affect total flowering time, too.

What has your light/dark cycle been since you initiated flowering? And how long was the stretch period (number of days between the first day of increased hours of darkness and the last day that you saw appreciable vertical growth)? If your lighting has been constant since you switched to flowering and you have those numbers, I can give you an estimated harvest date.

 

[Conradino23]

Going with trichomes is always the best. Some amber is visible there so you could probably take her now if you want. No south asian sativas like Thai flower up to 22 weeks outdoor, but some phenos will be faster than others. Also 12/12 is not optimal, 11/13 or 10/4 is much better to fit the genetic response. If she grew in spurts and this has stopped it's a good moment to chop her, but if you're somewhere in the middle then few more weeks would probably be better. Some sativas never go completely cloudy/amber with trichomes and they rather show eveyrything in the same time in different ratios. I found an easy way out of this mess by using sample buds to estimate the harvest. Just nip a nice but small top somewhere from the upper canopy, dry it for few days and smoke it. Taste and moisture aside this will tell you if the plants is at least partly ready, cause you could definitely harvest multiple times. Hope that helps.

 

[WillGrow510]

What has your light/dark cycle been since you initiated flowering? And how long was the stretch period (number of days between the first day of increased hours of darkness and the last day that you saw appreciable vertical growth)? If your lighting has been constant since you switched to flowering and you have those numbers, I can give you an estimated harvest date.

I have been running 12/12 constantly for about 15 weeks. Stretch was about 2.5-3 weeks at most as I was paranoid of it stretching into the lights so I would super crop and tie down as much as I could.

Going with trichomes is always the best. Some amber is visible there so you could probably take her now if you want. No south asian sativas like Thai flower up to 22 weeks outdoor, but some phenos will be faster than others. Also 12/12 is not optimal, 11/13 or 10/4 is much better to fit the genetic response. If she grew in spurts and this has stopped it's a good moment to chop her, but if you're somewhere in the middle then few more weeks would probably be better. Some sativas never go completely cloudy/amber with trichomes and they rather show eveyrything in the same time in different ratios. I found an easy way out of this mess by using sample buds to estimate the harvest. Just nip a nice but small top somewhere from the upper canopy, dry it for few days and smoke it. Taste and moisture aside this will tell you if the plants is at least partly ready, cause you could definitely harvest multiple times. Hope that helps.

Yeah, interesting. I picked a couple small buds to slowly dry about 4 days ago. Not too much aroma, but as they sit and dry more, the grassy hay is leaving and it's starting to smell a lot like the Mexican weed I used to get in Big Sur in the Mid '90's when I lived there. I knew three growers who grew the dank, but it was all gorilla grows outdoor. So, inbetween seasons leading up to the October harvest, the only weed avaiable was from Mexico. These were the only two types I knew for a long time. I always considered the Mexi inferior mostly because the local weed was so good. Now that I am learning more, I realize that the smell is probably unique to sativas. Earthy, spicy. Just took a wiff a couple minutes ago and it took me right back to Big Sur cira 1996. It was always compressed, seedy, and starting to turn brown. I can't wait to try the Thai Stick and see how this fresh Sativa smokes.

 

[Graytail]

You're going to get ambers simply as a matter of time, aren't you? After 15+ weeks, those original trichs are getting pretty old, and some heat or dryness can easily push them into degradation. To me, that plant has the look of one that still has a few weeks to go. In fact, it looks like one that may not even finish. The Skunk#1 apparently didn't have much effect.

I'd make sure it has enough feed/fuel to go a few more weeks, and then cut the light by an hour, to 11/13. See if that helps. My guess is that it really won't finish by itself- gonna need some help.

 

[TorturedSoul]

I have been running 12/12 constantly for about 15 weeks. Stretch was about 2.5-3 weeks at most as I was paranoid of it stretching into the lights so I would super crop and tie down as much as I could.

That's... odd. If someone asked me how long the total flowering period was for a plant that stopped growth 21 days after cutting the lights back to 12:12, I'd say around 52 or 53 days. I would expect a much longer period of stretch from something that flowered, for example, 16 weeks (112 days) - as in, "The stretch was 45 days." As tying down a plant doesn't prevent growth... IDK; after reading the above, I couldn't even speculate as to how long your ride will last. Never even saw a sativa - or sativa-dominant hybrid, for that matter - with such a short stretch period. That's more like a stumpy indica, lol.

 

[Weaselcracker]

Watch for signs of increased leafiness over the next weeks. My Thais tend to never come to a really obvious finish, but take on a sort of reveg look in time. It's sort of subtle, but they get drier, less sticky, and more leafy as time goes on. Being on 11/13 or less helps.

 

[WillGrow510]

That's... odd. If someone asked me how long the total flowering period was for a plant that stopped growth 21 days after cutting the lights back to 12:12, I'd say around 52 or 53 days. I would expect a much longer period of stretch from something that flowered, for example, 16 weeks (112 days) - as in, "The stretch was 45 days." As tying down a plant doesn't prevent growth... IDK; after reading the above, I couldn't even speculate as to how long your ride will last. Never even saw a sativa - or sativa-dominant hybrid, for that matter - with such a short stretch period. That's more like a stumpy indica, lol.

Okay. Thank you for that. I reviewed my grow log and it was almost three weeks in when I super cropped. They continued to grow for quite sometime after that. Here is the super cropping almost three weeks into flower:

Looking through the rest of the time line, it appears vertical growth stopped between 4/15 and 4/29. First day was 2/19. So... that's like... 8 weeks? Wow. The grow journal really helps. Sorry I did not refer to that first. Thanks!!

 

[Big Sur]

Interesting. I have to contradict some of what has been said here about sativas. I have been growing land race sativas for over 40 years now. Not all sativas are late flowering, nor are all of them long flowering. Colombian land races tend to be late and long bloomers, like starting flowering in mid October outdoors and running well into January. That is what my Colombian runs did in California (at the 33rd parallel). However, my southern and central Mexican sativas bloom earlier, typically in early September, and they finish by the end of October to mid November (at the 45th parallel in Oregon). My northern Mexico Sativas are somewhere between those, starting to bloom in late September and finishing in late November/early December (at the 43rd parallel in Oregon). South African Dagga, or Durbans tend to finish earlier like Southern Mexican sativas. However many ZA strains have a wide variety of bloom and flower times, and many of the Durbans have been worked to bloom earlier and shorten flowering times. Thai weed that I have grown from seeds from the earlier skinny 1970 sticks matured late and unevenly, and bloomed forever like the Colombians. They also grew very skraggly.

In California I knew guys that ran their blooms for a months longer than needed, and they harvested later. It depends on the high that you like. I tend to harvest earlier than later, as I like a lighter high to my weed rather than a stony couch lock. So I look for milky trichomes that are just beginning to turn amber color. But it is completely subjective as to what kind of high that you like.

 

[Big Sur]

Also, once the blooms are solidly set you can give them as much light as you want. I know this is contrary to what many say here and in books and what most people do. However, I have done multiple outdoor harvests for many years with indica and sativa and cross strains, and this is the case: I grow my mothers under lights in the winter and clone them under lights. I then get the mothers up to size and set them out in the GH in early April, and BAM! They set their blooms like clockwork. The switch from 22/2 to 13/11 triggers blooming. Then the blooms size up and they keep sizing up right up to the summer solstice when the sunlight hours here at the 45th parallel is 16/8 at the solstice. I typically harvest around mid June, cutting all the flowers off and leaving as many leaves as possible, and they re-veg usually within a week or so. Meanwhile I keep my clones under lights or augmented with light until late April here when sunlight is 14/10 and I move them into the GH for a summer grow and fall harvest. Then I let the clones and mothers all grow until I want them to bloom again, and I park them under 13/11 light for 5 days (I grow in 15 gallon pots so I can move them), and that usually triggers blooming again. Usually I bloom them in early August here, as the rains usually come by mid October in the US west. Last year they came early in September, and I had to finish my plants under lights. I know people in Europe that do three or even 4 cycles a year this way in places that it does not freeze very often.

 

[Conradino23]

Also, once the blooms are solidly set you can give them as much light as you want. I know this is contrary to what many say here and in books and what most people do. However, I have done multiple outdoor harvests for many years with indica and sativa and cross strains, and this is the case: I grow my mothers under lights in the winter and clone them under lights. I then get the mothers up to size and set them out in the GH in early April, and BAM! They set their blooms like clockwork. The switch from 22/2 to 13/11 triggers blooming. Then the blooms size up and they keep sizing up right up to the summer solstice when the sunlight hours here at the 45th parallel is 16/8 at the solstice. I typically harvest around mid June, cutting all the flowers off and leaving as many leaves as possible, and they re-veg usually within a week or so. Meanwhile I keep my clones under lights or augmented with light until late April here when sunlight is 14/10 and I move them into the GH for a summer grow and fall harvest. Then I let the clones and mothers all grow until I want them to bloom again, and I park them under 13/11 light for 5 days (I grow in 15 gallon pots so I can move them), and that usually triggers blooming again. Usually I bloom them in early August here, as the rains usually come by mid October in the US west. Last year they came early in September, and I had to finish my plants under lights. I know people in Europe that do three or even 4 cycles a year this way in places that it does not freeze very often.

This is really smart way to do it... hmm did you ever have problems with plants going indoor to outdoor? I mean like sun shock, temperature shock or they always stabilised in a short time?

 

[MiOutdoorsman]

Random Thought: Getting landrace seeds - albeit from certain limited geographical areas - used to be both cheap and easy. Ya spent next to nothing on a lid of Mexican (et cetera) brick, broke it apart, picked out the relative few (out of a thousand, lol) seeds that hadn't been crushed when the bud was compressed into bales, grew them out, and generally had some decent long-flowering sativa happiness, lol. If you were really lucky, you even got slightly high for a short time off of the ounce of prematurely harvested, poorly dried, non-cured, seedy, compressed crap that served as the... packaging materials for your seeds.

Ahhh good times .

 

[WillGrow510]

Thai weed that I have grown from seeds from the earlier skinny 1970 sticks matured late and unevenly, and bloomed forever like the Colombians. They also grew very skraggly.

Interesting. I feel this is how my Thai Sticks are going.

Thanks everyone for the info. Clearly there are varied opinions and it's obvious how much experience there is here. This is great and I appriciate the various viewpoints.

 

[Big Sur]

This is really smart way to do it... hmm did you ever have problems with plants going indoor to outdoor? I mean like sun shock, temperature shock or they always stabilised in a short time?

Funny that you should ask this. Usually not. As in they usually like moving outdoors under the sun and heat. Cannabis loves sun and heat. But this year... I moved my land race Lebbies and Durbans out into the GH a few weeks ago here and all of the Lebbies except one had leaf margin burn and curled their leaves up. I am not sure why. The Durbans and one female RSC Lebbie did not have any margin burn or leaf curl. Not sure why it happened, but it seems to be in part genetic with the Lebbies. I do not know the complete history of these seed strains, nor the genetics in them. The Lebbie strains were both worked for a few years in Europe. At any rate, this never happens with the sativas that I have. And these are the first land race indicas that I have grown, actually. The rest were all land race sativas or crosses. We had a mini warm spell here this past weekend, and they were just fine in full sun and 86 degree heat. They seem to be losing their curled leaves and moving on with a new flush of leaves. I have not really had issues moving plants indoors to force flowering, and then back out again, nor indoors if the weather gets too cool or starts raining early in the fall, like it did last year. I have never had any issues when harvesting and re-vegging indoors or outdoors. But by then they are of size and fully rooted.

I also had one Durban land race girl give a partial bloom when I went from indoors under lights to outdoors this year. Seems odd, as it has more than 14 hours of day light now. I hope it is not an auto? That would really suck. Every year there is a new twist to growing weed.

 

[Big Sur]

PS: I have had far more issues with growing indicas from seed than sativas. indicas are far more prone to dampening off after germination and PM later on. None of the hundreds of sativas that I have grown from seed ever had these problems. Well, maybe a few... but it is not prevalent as it is with indicas. Several of my indica crosses had PM here last year which I have not really had much of with sativas. PM is a New World disease and the western hemisphere Cannabis strains are likely far more resistant to it than the Asian indicas are. I use Neem for preventing PM now. Neem oil 1:100 in water sprayed once every 2 weeks keeps the PM away. And the mites away. I have a strain of tightly held seeds from Humboldt that are indica x indica crosses, and they had a problem with dampening off when I grew them for several years. The Swiss Lebbies also had that problem this year and I lost over half of the seedlings to dampening off when they were about an inch high. The RSC Lebbies did not have that problem. I also germinated a local Durban indica cross this year and only one of them survived. The rest died of root rot when they were an inch tall. I soaked them in hydrogen peroxide before germinating in a wet paper towel, and I popped them into sterile sand and peat mix soil as soon as they popped, points up. Something is here that the indicas do not like though. Likely some PNW fungus. But one girl is enough to clone many more from, and the survivors carry resistant traits, since they survived. So not all is lost.

Maybe I will soak my seed starter soil in Neem before germinating next year? Had not thought of that until now. I may also carry over some Durbans and Lebbies as clones if they turn out to be good. We shall see. Durban Poison is harder to get here, and it is usually top shelf and expensive. I may also try growing a Cherry Pie clone, if I can find one, as that is a Durban x GDP cross. I like both Druban and GDP. I got an 8th of Cherry Pie yesterday and it has more of a Durban high than a GDP stone, even though they say that it is indica dominant. Maybe there are different phenos. Green Crack and Blue Dream have a couple of different phenos floating around the PNW. Some claim that Cherry Pie has OG Kush genetics, but it does not. It is a purebred Durban Poison sativa crossed with GDP, which is Purple Urkle x Big Bud. Purple Urkle and Big Bud are California crosses that predate OG anything by a decade or more. But hey, everyone is an expert.

 

[TorturedSoul]

I've been wondering if the act of decreasing the hours of darkness caused your plants to become leafier than they would otherwise have been (I suppose you'd have to run a control group of clones to be sure). Or if it caused any... oddities with stretching (either a longer stretch, shorter stretch, a restarted stretch, or perhaps "spurts" of stretching.

I've had plants with more reasonable (lol) flowering times that were well into flowering continue to do so when I placed them outside earlier in the year (Spring). But I haven't experimented with placing long-flowering sativas outside after they'd already began flowering. I'm afraid that in my area, that'd be a waste of time and resources, lol. Even if I found a cold-weather tolerant strain, well... It's funny (it's actually not :rolleyes3 ), but a beautifully healthy cannabis plant is remarkably easy to see when everything else is in the process of dropping all its leaves and imitating Charlie Brown's Christmas tree, lol. Hunters and helicopters <SIGH> .

 

[Big Sur]

Fall colors here happens to my Cannabis plants as well. Many turn purple and drop their fan leaves, and some strains like OG Kush turn all kinds of colors like bronze, orange and purple. I have grown a lot of different strains, and these plants are variably light sensitive, heat sensitive, water sensitive, pH sensitive, humidity sensitive, nitrogen sensitive, soil sensitive, and they are sensitive to pruning and moving around in pots. They are also sensitive to differences in night and daytime temperatures. Many of the reactions to changes in growing conditions are auxin (hormone) responses. Some are just physical responses, like plants going dormant below 60 F and sugars not moving freely in the plants below 68 F. Above 90 F and terpenes waft off. Photosynthesis is variable during the day and shuts off at night. Cannabis also tracks the light and moves to follow the sun. Plants can move. Wind is also a factor. As are deer and rabbit predation! And bugs, and fungus.

Outdoor grows here where I am are much harder to control in terms of temperature, humidity, and light. Also there is a UV light factor doing stuff. UV breaks down a lot of compounds. Ideally I try to keep my temps between 60 F and 95 F. But that can be hard to do. Lately the night temps here have been in the low 40s. So I have been pulling the plants indoors at night. They are in gallons now so it is easy to move them around. But they will get bigger. I am also up against differences in my climate vs land race strain origin growing conditions. These seeds did not evolve here. And they are prone to adapt rapidly to these conditions if left on their own. I do not have a sub-tropical environment here like Southern Mexico, or a climate like Colombia. Or even weather like in California. We have rather low humidity in summer, high differential in day and night temperatures all year, cool nights, and rather variable summer weather. In Central California weather was far more stable; 55 degree nights with fog extending inland in the morning and late afternoons, clearing during the day with highs in the 70s, from April to October, year in and year out. Though this week is a lot cooler than normal around Monterey Bay. They are bouncing between 50 F and 60 F all week there. It is going to be hot here this week, into the low 90s. Only 2 weeks ago we had a winter weather advisory here for snow down to the 2500 ft level. I am at 1500 ft.

Anyway, the sativas seem to be more hardy and adaptable than the indicas in my experience. As are land races compared to crosses. The crosses seem to becoming all one big generic northern purple OG widow haze skunk cross designed to grow indoors under ideal conditions.

 

[Big Sur]

It has occurred to me that optimizing weed growing indoors and out in Oregon remains more or less alchemy. Looking at several strains of Durban Poison that I have bought over the past few months (legal to buy here, and they label all MJ sales with the lab testing info for 5 cannabinoids now), they are all over the map. Some are as low as 12% THC and others are as high as 22% THC, and several have 0% CBD and some have 1.15% CBD. Highly varied, even indoors as most of them were grown. One batch was seeded, but still had high THC (18.67%). So even under ideal controlled conditions, the results are highly varied. Likely the strains/clones are part of that, but I have to believe that environment has to be a huge factor as well, even indoors.

Note also that the common belief that seeded weed is (and was) all garbage is also debunked here. Highly seeded Durban Poison weed tested out at 18.67% THC, and 0.1% CBD. 19% THC is killer! This stuff will definitely get you ripped. Just like seeded land race bag weed back in the 70s got us high. Twas not all bunk as many claim.

 

[Radogast]

It has occurred to me that optimizing weed growing indoors and out in Oregon remains more or less alchemy. Looking at several strains of Durban Poison that I have bought over the past few months (legal to buy here, and they label all MJ sales with the lab testing info for 5 cannabinoids now), they are all over the map. Some are as low as 12% THC and others are as high as 22% THC, and several have 0% CBD and some have 1.15% CBD. Highly varied, even indoors as most of them were grown. One batch was seeded, but still had high THC (18.67%). So even under ideal controlled conditions, the results are highly varied. Likely the strains/clones are part of that, but I have to believe that environment has to be a huge factor as well, even indoors.

Note also that the common belief that seeded weed is (and was) all garbage is also debunked here. Highly seeded Durban Poison weed tested out at 18.67% THC, and 0.1% CBD. 19% THC is killer! This stuff will definitely get you ripped. Just like seeded land race bag weed back in the 70s got us high. Twas not all bunk as many claim.

I do believe environmentals matter. I would think harvest timing could be as much a problem as environmentals - especially with long flowering sativas.

Back in the day, I cleaned for seeds (by hand, we didn't have no stinkin' grinders in the 70s) because if you didn't you could blow a hole in the side of your joint and then it wouldn't smoke right.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Looking at several strains of Durban Poison that I have bought over the past few months (legal to buy here, and they label all MJ sales with the lab testing info for 5 cannabinoids now), they are all over the map. Some are as low as 12% THC and others are as high as 22% THC, and several have 0% CBD and some have 1.15% CBD. Highly varied, even indoors as most of them were grown.

Are all samples dried to a uniform moisture content level as part of the testing process? If not, might moisture content affect the numbers? I'm not really sure how the testing process works.

Also, would these various batches all be grown by the same person? Under the same growing conditions? Harvested at the same point in flowering development? All clones from the same mother? If the answer to any of those questions is, "No," then I would expect there to be some variation.

One batch was seeded, but still had high THC (18.67%). So even under ideal controlled conditions, the results are highly varied. Likely the strains/clones are part of that, but I have to believe that environment has to be a huge factor as well, even indoors.

Note also that the common belief that seeded weed is (and was) all garbage is also debunked here. Highly seeded Durban Poison weed tested out at 18.67% THC, and 0.1% CBD. 19% THC is killer! This stuff will definitely get you ripped. Just like seeded land race bag weed back in the 70s got us high. Twas not all bunk as many claim.

I always got the feeling that seeded cannabis was somewhat less than sinsemilla. It seemed logical, because seeded plants seemed to finish earlier than the would have otherwise. I would not automatically consider seeded cannabis to be garbage. I do consider it to be a bit of a PitA, lol. Seems like some of the strains that we like had a knack for seeding themselves late in flower. If I was attempting to grow a long(ish)-flowering strain outdoors around here, I might not do anything to discourage pollination.

Back in the day, I cleaned for seeds (by hand, we didn't have no stinkin' grinders in the 70s) because if you didn't you could blow a hole in the side of your joint and then it wouldn't smoke right.

Rock 'n' roll double albums, lol. Taptaptaptaptaptaptaptap....

 

[Radogast]

Rock 'n' roll double albums, lol.taptaptaptaptaptaptaptap....

My favorite album for cleaning/rolling was Santana - Moonflower: One big photo of pretty clouds snuggling with mountaintops.