Landrace Genetics 101

[electro gypsy]

I would very much like to hear back if you experiment. To be fair, I think most of the cannabis seeds we grow have a much higher germination rate than most other crops so perhaps we are bit spoiled...that said, Id love to have a full proof method that could also revive decade old seeds.

If I ever learn more about it, Id also love to get into tissue culture as a primary means for cloning as well.

i'll post a journal on it soon. probably at least get it started this weekend.

i'm not sure i would adapt this as my primary means of cloning..
unless i was maybe in heaven and doing 100+ at a time ... heh
>insert day dream theme song here<

it's somewhat labor and cost intense for a hobby grower..

however, the niches i see would be as already mentioned. long term storage of genetics and last minute saves.

I have never had problems with bacteria or with virus growing weed myself. I never had problems with dampening off (fungus) until this year. I had a big problem with germinating some indica strains from Mendocino Co. and half of them croaked after popping up their cotyledons. My landrace sativas never did that.

As for TC, I was into that when I had a cymbidium orchid collection in California. I had an orchid nursery in NorCal and SoCal. I had collected some old award winning cultivars that had become otherwise extinct, and a guy that I knew near Santa Cruz, CA had a commercial orchid grow operation with a TC lab. So we TC cloned some of my old cultivars. They then take up to 7 years to reach commercial size though, so you have to do a lot of them. In the world of orchids TC is big business, and orchids can be big money in good economies.

TC is also big in the bamboo nursery business to bring the new introductions into available nursery stock faster. That is because there is a ban on importing any type of live bamboos, tissue, or seeds into the US from any foreign place. It can take years to tap into the few ABS import licenses to import new species, and then quarantine them for several years under USDA inspection. Division propagation of these imported plants would take too long, so TC cloning is done on a large scale, especially up in WA state. I have a bamboo nursery here, and the TC Fargesias clones that I have grown are not as vigorous as the comparable divided plant clones. That is common knowledge among bamboophiles; that Fargesia TC clones do not do as well as divisions. We are not sure why that is.

On another track, I have read blogs and posts on this forum that state that clone cutting MJ plants are not as viable as seeded plants. If that were true, every clone plant would be worse off than the mother plant, and that simply is not the case. I have no experience with MJ TC clones. I can easily make 100 clones from a mother plant by cuttings though, and rather fast, so I am not sure that TC would be a more economical way to clone MJ. I do not know about the viability of MJ TC clones either. There is the guy in WA that has a huge TC clone bank, but he did that to get around MJ plant limits in the WA state laws. He is a collector, and likely has the largest MJ collection in the world. Or close to it. He is on this forum.

sorry, hobby thought process cross over lol. the bacteria/virus's would not be detrimental to the plant. some might even be beneficial. my primary concern would be the culture media itself being exposed and contaminated. there may be some things we can do with the culture media to prevent this. antibiotics, enzymes etc. i'll get the journal started so we don't sidetrack this awesome thread too much.


YEAH THAT GUY IN WASHINGTON! it's all his fault. he set me down this crazy path with delusions of commercial sized collections

 

[Organic Weed]

@BigSur when I was traveling in Brazil a couple of years ago I got some grass from a rasta on the beach of Rio... It wasn't the strongest coz it was full of seeds but it was decently dried and not very dark brown... More like green hay... Well I asked the guy where it came from and he told me that most of the grass in Brazil comes from Paraguay where controls from local DEA are way less strict... I don't know why but it didn't pass through my mind to keep the seeds with me... Does anybody know if buying seedy grass in exotic/tropical places on the street may be a source of good genetics?

And when traveling in such places, what's the best way to get landrace seeds or strain?

 

[DrZiggy]

@bigsur when I was traveling in Brazil a couple of years ago I got some grass from a rasta on the beach of Rio... It wasn't the strongest coz it was full of seeds but it was decently dried and not very dark brown... More like green hay... Well I asked the guy where it came from and he told me that most of the grass in Brazil comes from Paraguay where controls from local DEA are way less strict... I don't know why but it didn't pass through my mind to keep the seeds with me... Does anybody know if buying seedy grass in exotic/tropical places on the street may be a source of good genetics?

And when traveling in such places, what's the best way to get landrace seeds or strain?

yes...you can get good genetics..

 

[Organic Weed]

I was thinking about seeds in outer space when I read that post. But in vacuum seal bags? They should be fine and last longer than in the air. But... the best way to keep seeds, basically forever, is to freeze them

I keep my seeds in a sealed glass container filled with rice to avoid moisture and put it in the fridge. I store then in their original tiny glass or in aluminum folie wrapped then in plastic and sink in 2 lbs rice. When I need them, I simply put the jar on my table and leave it closed for 12 hours to reach room Temp and to avoid any humidity. After 3 years I still have 100% germination rate. I heard freezing brings humidity too low and may undermine germination over a long time. But I never tried it so I don't have any personal experience

 

[Conradino23]

That's how the whole growing scene exploded in the late 60's really. Heads started growing Mexican seeds they plucked from the bud they were smoking, later Afghan came, and the rest of the deal: Thai, Colombian, Congolese, Panama, Vietnamese, you name it. Everything that was created as a result: Skunk #1, Blueberry, Original Haze, Big Sur Holly Weed, Maui Wowie, Romulan, Northern Lights, was nothing else than crossing the landraces between each other and working F1s into heirloom or commercial lines by backcrossing or creating subsequent generations until gaining IBL stability. You want to discover something new you have to open yourself to the old

 

[Big Sur]

YEAH THAT GUY IN WASHINGTON! it's all his fault. he set me down this crazy path with delusions of commercial sized collections

Yah, point point! TC culture! And frozen seeds! And growing the evil weed! Bad people leading others down the path of the dark side!

Reminds me, I need to contact Darth Vader. I am going to clone up a half dozen or so of my Ghost/Ghost OG/Triangle Kush/OG Kush strain (whatever you want to call this cut), as a local clone grower wants to trade me some of those for some original GDP, Blue Magoo and California Orange clones. He also has a cut from a GI that was in Afghanistan and he took a cutting of what he said was the largest MJ plant that he had ever seen, even in Afghanistan. The same GI was supposedly in charge of burning large caches of hash plants that they came across (sales of said plants and hash go toward supporting the Taliban).

 

[Big Sur]

@bigsur when I was traveling in Brazil a couple of years ago I got some grass from a rasta on the beach of Rio... It wasn't the strongest coz it was full of seeds but it was decently dried and not very dark brown... More like green hay... Well I asked the guy where it came from and he told me that most of the grass in Brazil comes from Paraguay where controls from local DEA are way less strict... I don't know why but it didn't pass through my mind to keep the seeds with me... Does anybody know if buying seedy grass in exotic/tropical places on the street may be a source of good genetics?

And when traveling in such places, what's the best way to get landrace seeds or strain?

Street weed in Rio is likely Monte Carlo. I was planning a trip there once, and was talked out of it. Too rough a place for this Gringo. When I traveled in Mexico and Central America, I kept a pretty low profile when it came to any drugs. I always took weed with me (mostly from Mexico, in an odd twist) and never bought any there. Weed was not legal in Mexico, but local use was tolerated. I was hauled off of busses and had M-16s shoved into my face by the Federales several times, looking for money and drugs. Anyway, I did smoke some local mota in Mexico and Panama. In Mexico the weed was kind of old as it does not stay fresh long in all that humidity. Mine was way better. They also tended to export the good stuff to the US for the top dollar. In Panama the weed was lethal. Panama Red is potent stuff. The guy I am trading clones with is going to Costa Rica this winter looking for landrace seeds there. I do not know what his plan is, or if he will find the good old seeds. I have some Colombian Red (same as Panama Red) seeds in my stash. No trip required for me, though I would not mind a trip back to CR.

I was reading the other day that in Mexico weed will be legal soon, after a landmark Supreme Court ruling there last week.

Ruling in Mexico Sets Into Motion Legal Marijuana

 

[Big Sur]

I keep my seeds in a sealed glass container filled with rice to avoid moisture and put it in the fridge. I store then in their original tiny glass or in aluminum folie wrapped then in plastic and sink in 2 lbs rice. When I need them, I simply put the jar on my table and leave it closed for 12 hours to reach room Temp and to avoid any humidity. After 3 years I still have 100% germination rate. I heard freezing brings humidity too low and may undermine germination over a long time. But I never tried it so I don't have any personal experience

Dry is good, frozen is far better though. My now 40 year old frozen seeds germinate at a 90% rate. In summer here the humidity is low, in the teens usually. Condensation is not an issue then. In winter here I go through my collection outside when it is below freezing and low humidity. This year I actually had a 100% germination rate. The oldest strain was 40+ years old, and the newest one was 8 years old. The 8 year old stuff had the biggest problem with dampening off.

 

[safeman]

Concerning germination it seems that "fresh" seeds need to be stored a while before trying to germinate them - maybe they need to be aged? but I don't think so --thoughts on or am I all wet ?"

 

[DrZiggy]

My fresh seeds(1 month old) sprout very quickly! Not all seeds get to freeze in the wild...in fact most probably don't...just say'n.

also water expands when it freezes(and when it goes to stream(popcorn)) and this to me would damage the seed, no?

plants in general don't do well when they freeze..the cell wall ruptures upon freezing and you end up with mush when it defrosts..

i know seeds are different to an extent.

 

[electro gypsy]

.the cell wall ruptures upon freezing . i know seeds are different to an extent

Bingo! this is why there are usually some losses with freezer storage. fortunately, the seed is designed to dehydrate and re-hydrate. the cell walls have a certain degree of elasticity to prevent rupture. not a perfect solution but helpful.

 

[safeman]

Auto's went to S-1's - no germination tried 2-3 weeks after harvest - probably need more time to "mature"?

 

[Big Sur]

Concerning germination it seems that "fresh" seeds need to be stored a while before trying to germinate them - maybe they need to be aged? but I don't think so --thoughts on or am I all wet ?"

I never needed to age seeds before germinating them.

 

[Big Sur]

also water expands when it freezes(and when it goes to stream(popcorn)) and this to me would damage the seed, no?

plants in general don't do well when they freeze..the cell wall ruptures upon freezing and you end up with mush when it defrosts..

i know seeds are different to an extent.

I have not observed any damage to my seeds from being frozen. Zero. No damage even after being frozen and thawed and re-frozen in many cycles. I have transported my seeds up and down the west coast from state to state and from NorCal to SoCal and SoCal back to NorCal, from freezer to freezer and thawing out for short periods of time during moving, and there is simply no damage. They keep on germinating at a very high rate. That is my imperial observation anyway.

The key elements in keeping seeds for long periods of time are dry and/or frozen. I originally froze my seed collection after buying and reading the book, Marijuana Potency by Michael Starks published back in 1977 (Berkeley Press). I still have it, and there is a good section in the book on storing seeds. He sites many experiments. In one a batch of seeds was kept viable by a Japanese scientist for 14 years at room temperature and kept dry in calcium chloride. In another he sites an America experiment where hemp seeds were kept viable for long periods of time stored in jars at 10 degrees C. He goes on to discuss experiments that show that the colder the temps that seeds are stored, the longer they will last and... that there is less impact from more moisture the colder they are kept. He also postulated that Cannabis seeds could be kept viable for centuries if kept frozen. So far he is correct, as my seeds have been in the freezer for nearly 40 years now, and my seeds are viable.

 

[Big Sur]

<snip> Big Sur Holly Weed <snip>, was nothing else than crossing the landraces between each other and working F1s into heirloom or commercial lines by backcrossing or creating subsequent generations until gaining IBL stability. You want to discover something new you have to open yourself to the old

That would be Big Sur Holy Weed. I have not heard that term in 40 years! BSHW was from Mexican seeds grown in Big Sur. It would not have been crossed, other than with itself in the 1960s or early 1970s. Crossing between strains was not anything that I heard about until I sourced some seeds to a guy in Carmel Valley in the late 1970s. I smoked some real BSHW at the baths at Esalen one night. I was so stoned already that I could not tell what the effect was though. BSHW would have been grown the old way, with the males and females, seeds, etc. Sinsemillia was not invented until 1977 when the book came out about growing it.

I think that with BSHW, the legend is far bigger than reality. I have 5 heirloom strain seed types in my collection from Big Sur from the mid and late 1970s. I never thought that they were anything unique. One I believe is a Big Sur Holy descendant. I grew it in Sothern Oregon and it was a monster late blooming purple sativa. Legend goes that BSHW was from seeds from Zacatecas. Maybe I can revive the *REAL* Zacatecas landrace/BSHW heirloom? Here is a blog on it:

Big Sur Holy Weed

And yes, you have to go back to original strains if you want original genetics. So much crossing has washed out the original landrace genes in all of these newer strains available now. The same thing happened with orchids, and many other species of cultivated plants.

 

[Big Sur]

Looking through my Big Sewer strains, here are my notes on what I think is later generation Big Sur Holy Weed.

Primo A+++ 5 star rating.
$130/oz from R* in Big Sur.
Beautiful multicolor tops, called, "purple senseless"
Very smooth smoke, wonderful buds.
Semi-sinsemillia, about 30 seeds/oz. Unusually small black (or super dark purple) seeds.
February, 1980.

Test planted in 2005 in So. Oregon. Very large dark purple topped sativa plants, late blooming.

 

[Tennessee Tim]

Graytail, I have had some success with very old pot and flower seeds(including poppy seeds) by the "shotgun approach" Hit with everything! I will scarify by shaking them in a jar lined with sandpaper (in mass when possible!) Prepare a weak solution of water with SeaCom-PGR Organic Seaweed Concentrate(a scant teaspoon per full Gallon of water), then follow the pre soak/paper towel method, in mass if possible, using the Seaweed mixture as your water. I have literally soaked hundreds/thousands of old seeds like this. Sometimes out of an entire Pint jar of seeds not any sprouted, using seeds only a few years old . Other times, I have had fair success and got a couple dozen to sprout that where quite old! Possibly as old as 10-15 years. However, that was out of several hundred attempted. It's always worth a try! A friend has told me he germinated two seeds out of 7 he found in a coat pocket he had not worn in twenty years and they were some great old Mexican pot he had back then!Good Luck!

 

[Organic Weed]

The key elements in keeping seeds for long periods of time are dry and/or frozen.

I guess another key element is how you keep them forzen and how you deforest them. If you just keep it in the frigde like that, with no protection and just pull them out of the fridge and leave them out, then you do it once and they'll be all unusable as probably most of them would have started germination because of humidity forming on the shelves. This is the last thing that can happen. If drops form on the shelves, then I guess the seed has a high chance of breaking its dorment state...

@BigSur How do you store them freezed?

 

[Tennessee Tim]

Michoacan was one of the more common weeds around here for several years in the mid seventies and on into the early eighties! Very nice sometimes but was often moldy coming from the black plastic wrapped bales. It faded away in this area when the Mexican Police began to extort too much money for it in their area and began to arrest growers and customers who balked at the higher pricing(extortion fees!)! They would let most people go once they paid a premium and help load the truck! The price went up and the quality down (often moldy) for weed from Michoacan in the eighties. If you bought it from the local police in the seventies you could get multi ton loads safely passed by trucks to waiting fishing boats in many areas of Mexico including Michoacan. If it became a problem in one area one would look for a new supplier in another area! That was what happened to the Michoacan Weed trail to here anyway!

 

[Big Sur]

@BigSur How do you store them freezed?

Nothing fancy, and I have thawed and re-frozen my seeds in many moving cycles (read my post above). The seeds are in mini paper envelopes in plastic bags. Those are all stored in a plastic card file box, which is wrapped loosely in several plastic bags. I keep them in a chest freezer now. They have spent most of their life in standard defrosting freezers on top of refrigerators.

Again, according to scientific study, humidity and moisture is not an issue the lower the temp that they are stored at. So keep 'em cold. I also try to keep 'em dry though.