Jon's New Pared Down Setup Soil Grow: 3 Photo & 1 Auto With New Dedicated Auto Rig

Bud Love said:
By the gods Jon.. hope you don’t use those sort of metaphors a lot when you talk to the ladies:)
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Lol! It means I'm the blind pig silly.
 
BubbaKush909 said:
Well I sure was surprised earlier today to see that my photoperiod Gold Leaf is starting to show pistils at 32 days under 18/6 lighting. I'm gonna take a wild guess that it's an auto, although all my autos so far have started flowering much earlier, closer to 20 days. It was a promo offer from the seed house and didn't say autos so I assumed they were photoperiod. I guess because my order was autos that's what happened.

Should be interesting. Since I thought it was a photo I've transplanted it twice and topped it. I gotta say it looks great, although I may have cost myself some yield. The adventures continue!

PS I have this app called LUX, it measures lumens but I think for purposes of light intensity it's sufficient. I'm hoping the manufacturer got the spectrum right, it's got lots of ratings and 4.5 stars so I figure it works. Back when I was growing previously LED's were in the experimental stage, they were very expensive and it seemed most of them handled Veg just fine but it was much trickier when it came to flowering. In the intervening years they've come a long way dialing in the spectrum.
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Sounds like an auto to me. Never seen a photo start to bud at 32 days for no reason. It may turn out that you have increased your yield by topping it. I haven't topped an auto yet, but I always transplant them. The idea that you should not transplant an auto is complete bullshit. You SHOULD. Every time. This is my strongly held opinion.

LUX works well too I checked it out. I just prefer to think in terms of par instead of Lux, so I got one that reads out in lux, par, uMols, etc. At least you have a reference point.
 
Phototown Update
Grow/Veg Day 20

Too many pages in a row with no pictures guys, so I had to post a shot of the girls this morning. This is them upon just waking up. A couple things of note to me in the photograph.

- Check out the Chunkadelic auto, located back right in the picture. See how she's praying HARD to the light? Note how the other plants are all horizontally oriented in terms of their leaves to the light. Not praying. This is at 560 par. What does this tell me? Well, it tells me I have the light where I want it. The girls don't have to pray at this time, that just means they want more light. 560 par is PLENTY for them for right now. I want them praying later in veg. The leaves are not curling down at all. They aren't shying from the light. Just loving it. The Chunkadelic, however, wants more as you can clearly see. I consider this anecdotal proof of my theory that autoflowers can take more light a lot earlier than photos. In fact, (I think), they actually SHOULD have more light. The auto praying to this extent tells me she could easily be at 700 or 800 par right now. However, since she's sharing with the photos, we defer to them regarding light level. She can thirst a bit. Damn light whore. Lol. This sort of ties in to the idea mentioned earlier about an auto's week being 5 days instead of 7. That concept applies not only to feeding them nutrients, but it also applies to light level in the same exact way. So if you are growing an auto and you're on Day 35, you are entering week 8 for both feeding AND light levels. It sort of indicates that growing photos and autos together, while it will work fine, may not be the best idea. You will be compromising the auto on light despite the photos getting what they want. Is it a huge compromise? Not really. The auto will be just fine. But if I REALLY wanted to max it out right now, I would increase the par level it is getting significantly. Just a theory, I do not have scientific data to back this up.

So there's some more famous BS from Jon. Lol.

Here's the girls today:

Grow #3 August 5.jpg
 
Emilya said:
I totally agree with you about the importance of veg. While I also love the flowering stage for many new reasons, veg is where it starts. I see the entire grow as being cumulative, and if you have a good veg with few problems, bloom will likely go the same. This last round I experimented with not even considering bloom nutes until after stretch was over, treating the first two weeks after the flip as just more extended veg, and I now have huge plants because of this special treatment. Bloom is almost like putting them on autopilot and letting them glide in for the finish in many ways. I think about the number of times that I have fed these current plants during these long 80 days or so getting to this point, realizing that I will only be feeding my plants 3 times during bloom makes it seem like this grow is almost over, already, just a week or so into bloom. Its like the care I have taken to grow and develop the root system these past couple of months... now all that work ends, and it is time to really use those roots that I developed, to see just how much water I can push into these plants. The ability I now have to feed my plants so much water, started in veg.

I am glad you have learned to recognize the need for water by just looking at your plants. After seeing them go through the wet/dry cycle so many times, it almost becomes obvious when you walk into the room, and smell the room, that this need is there. Nudging a bag to check its weight simply becomes a formality at that point.
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Hi Emilya - this seemed like the right thread to pose my question to. I have heard you talk before about watering relative to how dry to let the pots get each time but haven't drilled down on that. Here's where I'm coming from: I have found that I get the best results when I let the pots dry out all the way each time between waterings. It seems when I do that, versus watering when the pot is, say, ALMOST dry, the plants respond more aggressively (in a good way). This seems to be the case in all stages of growth, with the obvious exception of seedlings. I'm not sure if this is just cuz in the act of drying them out all the way the leaves droop a bit and then when you water they respond strongly, so the DIFFERENCE is to what I'm attributing the aggressive response, or what. I guess what I'm wondering is whether or not there is a system or a preferred method. Best practices, as it were, lol. If I remember correctly I thought I heard you say once that you don't ALWAYS let the pot dry out all the way. When do you and when don't you? And why? And maybe this is something I missed in one of your How to Water A Potted Plant series - if so simply please direct me back to that. But would you have a few moments to address this please? (Thanks in advance as always!)
 
Jon said:
Hi Emilya - this seemed like the right thread to pose my question to. I have heard you talk before about watering relative to how dry to let the pots get each time but haven't drilled down on that. Here's where I'm coming from: I have found that I get the best results when I let the pots dry out all the way each time between waterings. It seems when I do that, versus watering when the pot is, say, ALMOST dry, the plants respond more aggressively (in a good way). This seems to be the case in all stages of growth, with the obvious exception of seedlings. I'm not sure if this is just cuz in the act of drying them out all the way the leaves droop a bit and then when you water they respond strongly, so the DIFFERENCE is to what I'm attributing the aggressive response, or what. I guess what I'm wondering is whether or not there is a system or a preferred method. Best practices, as it were, lol. If I remember correctly I thought I heard you say once that you don't ALWAYS let the pot dry out all the way. When do you and when don't you? And why? And maybe this is something I missed in one of your How to Water A Potted Plant series - if so simply please direct me back to that. But would you have a few moments to address this please? (Thanks in advance as always!)
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Again, good questions as you drill down into my thinking, trying to understand my methods! As in all things in life, rules are made to be broken, and every great once in a while I will justify an exception to the watering rule. My basic rules have two sections, those rules dealing with veg and those dealing with the bloom period, and I do water completely differently in those two phases of the grow.

In veg, the goal is to build roots. There is no other goal. If you build up massive roots you will in turn have massive plants. What I have found is that this weed, this very aggressively growing weed, responds to a lack of water by growing even more roots in order to find more water! The container running out of water is a signal to this super survivor to really turn it on, and you will find that the plant not only grows massive amounts of new root tips as the container is drying out, but it also develops an incredible amount of suction (the praying) at the end of the water too, so as to literally suck the container dry. This surge of activity not only grows the roots, but with all the fluid moving within the plant we also see growth spurts during these times at the top too. I have no data to prove it, but I would hypothesize that during the last 12-18 hours of water remaining in the container, the metabolism of the plant is at its highest. If this is true it would then make sense to strive to achieve this point of hyperactivity as often as possible. Watering a day early can be justified, such as on feeding day, needing to head out for the weekend, catching up slow plants with fast ones, etc. etc., but there is a price to pay for it.

So that is how I view veg and up through the end of stretch. I try to force those roots to seek water, every cycle. Bloom is different. Now that you have developed all of those roots, Bloom is the time to use those roots, to see how much water you can get those plants to take up.

Whatever my wet/dry cycle has settled down to at the end of veg and stretch, in bloom I want to force water. I will water a day earlier than I would have in veg... not quite dry, but mostly dry. Right now in my comparative grow I am at a 4 day watering cycle, right at the end of stretch. After confirming my next watering is indeed at a 4 day cycle, for the next 3 waterings I will water a day earlier, attempting to move them to a 3 day cycle. On the 4th watering, I will let them dry out that extra day, just to get oxygen back down to the lower roots to re-energize them, a flush of oxygen, in other words.

Throughout the rest of bloom, 7 more weeks, I figure I will get an extra watering in every week because I am pushing water. I will be force feeding each of my plants about an extra gallon and a half every week, times 7 more weeks... that is 10.5 gallons of water extra that I could have easily not given my plants, and they would have been fine on a lackadasical 4 day wet/dry cycle. By forcing a 3 days cycle, that 10.5 gallons of extra water is 84 lbs more mass that the plant processes during the grow, turning it and carbon and all of the other minerals coming in, into plant mass and buds.

Watering should not be considered to be a passive part of this growing process... how you do it, how much you give and when... can make a huge difference in final yield and quality.
 
@Emilya I really appreciate the time you spend helping us and more significantly the time you've had to spend researching all of this thank you!

@Jon roughly speaking how long in Jon days(!) has it been before your autos started to flower? I'm trying to figure out if topping may have delayed flowering of the Gold Leaf or if it's genetics. It's gotten the same treatment as everyone else as far as lights & nutes go. Since I thought it was a photo it's final home is a 7gal grow bag, it will be interesting to see if it fills it with roots.
 
BubbaKush909 said:
@Emilya I really appreciate the time you spend helping us and more significantly the time you've had to spend researching all of this thank you!

@Jon roughly speaking how long in Jon days(!) has it been before your autos started to flower? I'm trying to figure out if topping may have delayed flowering of the Gold Leaf or if it's genetics. It's gotten the same treatment as everyone else as far as lights & nutes go. Since I thought it was a photo it's final home is a 7gal grow bag, it will be interesting to see if it fills it with roots.
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Hey BK - Mine have started to flower on all different times, but I haven't had one begin before 24 days or start after 35. If I had to say average flowering time for when they start I'd probably put a number like day 28 on it. I usually feel like the longer they go before they start to flower the better, cuz that's all the bigger they are. Bigger plant = bigger buds. So I beg all mine to take forever to start flowering and am kind of disappointed if they start early. Therein lies but one of the auto crapshoots. Lol.
 
Emilya said:
Again, good questions as you drill down into my thinking, trying to understand my methods! As in all things in life, rules are made to be broken, and every great once in a while I will justify an exception to the watering rule. My basic rules have two sections, those rules dealing with veg and those dealing with the bloom period, and I do water completely differently in those two phases of the grow.

In veg, the goal is to build roots. There is no other goal. If you build up massive roots you will in turn have massive plants. What I have found is that this weed, this very aggressively growing weed, responds to a lack of water by growing even more roots in order to find more water! The container running out of water is a signal to this super survivor to really turn it on, and you will find that the plant not only grows massive amounts of new root tips as the container is drying out, but it also develops an incredible amount of suction (the praying) at the end of the water too, so as to literally suck the container dry. This surge of activity not only grows the roots, but with all the fluid moving within the plant we also see growth spurts during these times at the top too. I have no data to prove it, but I would hypothesize that during the last 12-18 hours of water remaining in the container, the metabolism of the plant is at its highest. If this is true it would then make sense to strive to achieve this point of hyperactivity as often as possible. Watering a day early can be justified, such as on feeding day, needing to head out for the weekend, catching up slow plants with fast ones, etc. etc., but there is a price to pay for it.

So that is how I view veg and up through the end of stretch. I try to force those roots to seek water, every cycle. Bloom is different. Now that you have developed all of those roots, Bloom is the time to use those roots, to see how much water you can get those plants to take up.

Whatever my wet/dry cycle has settled down to at the end of veg and stretch, in bloom I want to force water. I will water a day earlier than I would have in veg... not quite dry, but mostly dry. Right now in my comparative grow I am at a 4 day watering cycle, right at the end of stretch. After confirming my next watering is indeed at a 4 day cycle, for the next 3 waterings I will water a day earlier, attempting to move them to a 3 day cycle. On the 4th watering, I will let them dry out that extra day, just to get oxygen back down to the lower roots to re-energize them, a flush of oxygen, in other words.

Throughout the rest of bloom, 7 more weeks, I figure I will get an extra watering in every week because I am pushing water. I will be force feeding each of my plants about an extra gallon and a half every week, times 7 more weeks... that is 10.5 gallons of water extra that I could have easily not given my plants, and they would have been fine on a lackadasical 4 day wet/dry cycle. By forcing a 3 days cycle, that 10.5 gallons of extra water is 84 lbs more mass that the plant processes during the grow, turning it and carbon and all of the other minerals coming in, into plant mass and buds.

Watering should not be considered to be a passive part of this growing process... how you do it, how much you give and when... can make a huge difference in final yield and quality.
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Thanks once again for exactly what I wanted to know. That's as clear as the day is long. :thanks::thanks::thanks:
 
OK, who wants to help me make a decision?

Let's talk a little bit about this Chunkadelic autoflower. I have named her, since she is the only auto officially in this grow journal. I gave her the only name she could have I think: Say hello to Chunky. Lol. Predictable but somehow apropos.

So here's the deal with Chunky....she is frankly going NUTS. Out of all the autos I have grown, this one is showing me the most explosive and extensive growth on Day 20 that I have seen yet. She has branches coming out at every node - a pair on each - and to my eyes they look like branches that will become side branches with buds, as opposed to not growing out and becoming buds on the main stalk that either join up with what's above them or not. There were two of these branches on the Sour Apple that is drying, and that was it. I can see that this plant will have several that will grow out. This is a good thing. The other thing I see in this plant is that she is almost BEGGING me to top her. Right now. At the node that is currently coming out in the photos from just now. It's still early enough. No signs of preflowering or anything like that yet. But if I am going to top her, I have to pretty much do it today. What do you guys think? Should I try it? I haven't topped one yet but there's something about this particular plant that is telling me to top her. And when I get a strong feeling like that, especially one that's related to something I actually know how to do, I usually go with my gut. Here's the thing. She's on Day 20. A quarter or so of her life is over. She'll be ready sometime in the 70s most likely. Well, the photos are going to be in veg for probably around 70-ish days before I flip them anyway. So there is no reason to transfer Chunky to the auto rig anytime soon. Maybe not at all. Obviously it would be highly preferable to both her and I for her to live under the G8 the whole time. Let's say 70 days of her life is covered in that regard. Worst case scenario is that I feel the need to flip the photos around day 70, and Chunky then will have an option: she can finish out for her final week or so under the G8 at 12/12 with the photos OR when I flip she can slide over to the auto rig. That becomes more difficult space-wise in the auto rig if I choose to top this plant, as she will likely develop side branches that want to reach outside the dumb attejiere. But that's easily controllable I believe.

So the question, most simply, is: Do I top her or no? What do you guys think? Does she look to you guys like a great candidate for a topping? I wouldn't take a chance on using Uncle Ben's method on the auto. I'm just talking about one cut of the current topmost node. Get two mains instead of one and the corresponding side growth.

BTW - here's an aside that we'll discuss more in a later post - so far this plant is LOVING the Canna nutes.

Here's some pictures of her exclusively:

- Full shot showing current condition of plant on Day 20
- Stem and lower growth shot
- Middle of plant and growth shot
- Top of plant showing potential topping node

Chunky full shot Day 20.jpg


Chunky stem shot Day 20.jpg


Chunky nodal growth shot Day 20.jpg


Chunky top shot Day 20.jpg
 
Jon said:
So there's some more famous BS from Jon.
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Wonder what would happen if you bloomed an auto out at 12/12 with the photos. :hmmmm:
Emilya said:
I will let them dry out that extra day, just to get oxygen back down to the lower roots to re-energize them, a flush of oxygen, in other words.
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I think it has a great deal to do with the oxygen... if you ever clone in a aerocloner machine, the kind that sprays every 15 minutes or so with nozzles from underneath the plant root, you will see it produces massive quantities of root. I contribute this to the extra oxygen the root gets with the minute on 15 off cycles of the spray as well as the spray itself picking up extra oxygen just from having been violently released from a spray nozzle.
Jon said:
What do you guys think? Should I try it?
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I don't do no autos but @Justin Goody prefers to top his autos... says it makes em bigger.

They look great Jon... you must be stoked. :thumb:
 
Diatomacious said:
Wonder what would happen if you bloomed an auto out at 12/12 with the photos. :hmmmm:

I think it has a great deal to do with the oxygen... if you ever clone in a aerocloner machine, the kind that sprays every 15 minutes or so with nozzles from underneath the plant root, you will see it produces massive quantities of root. I contribute this to the extra oxygen the root gets with the minute on 15 off cycles of the spray as well as the spray itself picking up extra oxygen just from having been violently released from a spray nozzle.

I don't do no autos but @Justin Goody prefers to top his autos... says it makes em bigger.

They look great Jon... you must be stoked. :thumb:
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Interesting question, I was wondering that myself. I don't see why it would bother them to finish at 12/12 other than they would prefer to have more light. Maybe they wouldn't get as big under 12/12? I don't know. We'll see what happens with this Chunky when the photos are ready to flip. See where she's at. Maybe we'll let her finish out with the photos just to see what happens. That's what I love about autos. When I'm growing photos, I don't really give a damn about the autos. They're like gravy. I hope they turn out great and I'll do everything I can to make that happen, but it's still just an auto. Lol. So experimenting with them is fun as hell.

Thanks man, 21 days in and so far so good. Don't worry, I have plenty of time to screw them up. :laughtwo:
 
Small Phototown Update
Chunkadelic Autoflower Topping
Grow/Veg Day 21

Well, I didn't get many takers on the "should I top Chunky" question, so I made an executive decision. I went ahead and topped the autoflower. First time topping one. Day 21 may or may not be a bit late for an auto topping, I don't know. We'll see what happens. All I did was cut above the fourth node to create two main tops instead of one. I consider it a "minimally invasive" topping, lol. I see zero signs of anything but veg so far, no signs of preflowers or anything, so I figure I'm not too late. It will be very interesting to see what happens.

So here's a few pics of the topping.

- From above
- From the side showing my two new tops which will soon be big buds, lol
- This is all I took

from the top topping shot day 21.jpg


Side topping shot Day 21.jpg


All I took.jpg
 
Phototown
Grow/Veg Day 21

I couldn't resist. I love the way the plants look the day AFTER you water. That's when they just seem to look amazing and in the exact right place they want to be. I am posting this picture as an example of what I mean. They got their second nute watering for the week yesterday. These girls look like they have wings and they're FLYING. It's so cool I had to post one picture. Sorry...

Couldn't resist Day 21 Flying.jpg
 
Looking great Jon! Sorry I didn't see this earlier not that I have much advice. I topped mine at (Jon) day 23 after the 3rd node, it was working on it's 6th node at the time. It's well into flowering now and looks great.

I've read that you shouldn't clone autos and I'm guessing that's because the clones will immediately go into flower. I have no idea if the topping delayed flowering for me, most of mine have been flowering by day 24. I'm running full spectrum lights from the start plus the sun. It didn't flower until day 32.

Good luck!
 
BubbaKush909 said:
Looking great Jon! Sorry I didn't see this earlier not that I have much advice. I topped mine at (Jon) day 23 after the 3rd node, it was working on it's 6th node at the time. It's well into flowering now and looks great.

I've read that you shouldn't clone autos and I'm guessing that's because the clones will immediately go into flower. I have no idea if the topping delayed flowering for me, most of mine have been flowering by day 24. I'm running full spectrum lights from the start plus the sun. It didn't flower until day 32.

Good luck!
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Cool so maybe day 21 was fine to top her, and not too late. It appears to have been fine so far. Yeah how you gonna clone an auto? It'll start budding shortly after it roots. Whatever you cloned would already be that age, so you'd have no time for growth at all before it buds. At least I think. You'd harvest a gram or two. Lol. And I also don't know if topping will delay flowering. I hope it does. I'm a big fan of the flowering holding off for as long as possible. Day 32 is great I think. I'd like to see two more weeks of veg before flowering out of Chunky here, but that would mean she'd be holding off til Day 35 before flower...possible but not likely.
 
I would flower my clones asap, usually within 2-3 weeks of rooting or they'd be too tall to work with. But they stretched like any normal photo, and I could decide when they were ready to flower. These may start flowering before they rooted, which usually took 7-10 days. I'd say my yield off a typical clone was about what I'm hoping to get from the autos, around 2.5oz But they only took up the footprint of a 2L. I guess we're gonna have to find out for ourselves how to best grow them.
 
BubbaKush909 said:
I would flower my clones asap, usually within 2-3 weeks of rooting or they'd be too tall to work with. But they stretched like any normal photo, and I could decide when they were ready to flower. These may start flowering before they rooted, which usually took 7-10 days. I'd say my yield off a typical clone was about what I'm hoping to get from the autos, around 2.5oz But they only took up the footprint of a 2L. I guess we're gonna have to find out for ourselves how to best grow them.
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You're talking photos, yes? Or you've actually cloned an auto? If you mean auto, how do you "flower your clones" when autos bud whenever they want?
 
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