Jon's Final Florida Journal For Real

[Jon]

What beautiful fans this branch has.

She’s pretty special I think Keith. She feels that way.

 

[Jon]

Um….???????

Well @Gee64, I’m mystified. Ok, so I tossed the MM x M34, right? You saw the closeups yesterday in the lab maybe. Well look at her today. All I did was leave her right here. She got dark at dark and rained on since, and this is right now.

This is overnight growth and noticeable change!

Wtf is she doing? Even the lowest yellowing first leaves are greener!

 

[Keffka]

Its called "genetic expression" or "genetic potential" and it is the plant being what it's dna says it should be with a full spectrum diet that it's dna decides on what to eat, not the instructions on the bottle decide. Not knocking synthetics here, just pointing out a difference. Synthetics make a great business model. Genetic potential will surprise you with both good and bad.

Yep.. here’s an example

I don’t use photo editing, filters, or anything, these are just cropped images.

The coloring is deeper and shinier with far more vibrance to it. They’re meatier looking as well. None of these plants have ever been given a foliar or a synthetic, they’re just that shiny from being fed in a balanced organic way.

You can actually see in that third picture the genetics of the plant have been driven by synthetics for a while. The plant has coloring but it’s subdued. Its growth is also being limited on its top end, likely as a result of the genetics being used to force feeding. It’s a decent strain but it’s been hammered into a homogeneous plant during breeding. I could bring it back around after a few generations but it was a fem seed so I don’t have access to its males. The other two were regular seeds but their genes don’t need my help.

 

[StoneOtter]

Hey @StoneOtter, as my scrog Sensei, I have a radical scrog idea to bounce off you.

What if we tried a scrog in 3 dimensions rather than 2? Think LightAddict’s Death Star. Only that one took him close to forever (it’s the sickest training thing ever). I have asked him about this idea, and he seems to think it’s possible.

A scrog screen shaped exactly like, and in the actual proportions of, the Great Pyramid.

Four semi vertical walls to fill (even though the actual pyramid is in fact 8- sided). Buds on the outside only - a hollow pyramid in the middle which would be dark anyway and completely light blocked by the fully bud laden walls. With the main cola bud at the top in a perfect world! We can put a little dime store LED light that changes colors inside for effect when it’s done.

I know it could be done. I think it would have to be a coco/photo situation to be able to completely control flip timing and cuz from what I’ve gathered so far in the lab that’s not a best case organic scenario. But that would allow for the growth rate to get it done in reasonable time. And since you’d be filling the walls all at the same time once you got a starter band wrapped all around the base, it would essentially only take as long as it took to fill one wall as high as necessary. Would be challenging to determine when to stretch her and integrate that growth into the upper walls, and a bigger challenge to get the timing right so the plant finished as the last cola finished on the top of the pyramid.

I’m not sure I have the skills to do it. Making the shape and screen is simple. The way to grow it to work I have figured out. It would be a timing or pruning masterpiece of training when it was done and it would look so cool. Probably be productive too!

What do you think??

That's a good one brother! First thing that came to mind was to use a form to make the shape. A star crab trap would be the perfect shape. The kind you would throw and it opens up on the bottom in the shape of a star but is a pyramid when you throw it. Know what I mean? Breaking out the 3dbb! Nice!

 

[KeithLemon]

That's a good one brother! First thing that came to mind was to use a form to make the shape. A star crab trap would be the perfect shape. The kind you would throw and it opens up on the bottom in the shape of a star but is a pyramid when you throw it. Know what I mean? Breaking out the 3dbb! Nice!

I just looked it up that would be cool. Sorry if I am butting in.

 

[InTheShed]

Starting an auto in a root cube imo is not the most effective way. It causes a lag. It essentially is a mixed medium for a while when it’s small. Like this one, when I see an auto started in a root cube they always end up smaller. Just an observation.

I start every seed in a peat puck, and it gets planted (with the cover removed) as soon as the sprout breaks through...my dwarf autos and my 6oz autos and every single one of my photos.

it's dna decides on what to eat, not the instructions on the bottle decide.

You can't force feed a plant synthetic nutes. It takes from the soil what it needs regardless of the source of the ions. You can create toxicities in both organic and synthetic grows though.

 

[Gee64]

The sum of this post and the previous have me wondering this:

Your comments apply to both organic and semi, as compared to synthetics. But the upside of those sound like you’re talking about organics and the magic of the real deal. I get that I don’t have the real deal here but a reasonable compromise that still is far closer than synthetic and can be called semi organic. And I understand your posts, that’s part of why I’m switching over.

So the question is, all these differences you refer to as may or may not happen and are elemental to the plants GP - how big a difference in those expressions of GP is there between organic and semi?

Make sense?

Its kind of a crap shoot. An organic grow selects what it wants, a synthetic grow selects the best thats available.

In theory if you covered every base synthetically the plant would have what it needs at its disposal. This is probably going to start an arguement as it usually does but thats not my intent and I won't partake in it as its easy knowledge to google and I have had it too many times. Its why I try not to compare. Synthetic guys are very defensive. Synthetics are delivered to the plant differently. Hydroponics is a back door to the plant that nature installed so in spring floods when the water table saturates the root zone a massive amounts of nutes are available. High ppm. So why doesnt a plant suffer nute burn? Because nature runs on ph, as the water recedes and the biosphere changes beneath the soil the ph does too. When it comes into range the plant grabs a big bunch of food before ph goes out of range and a rhizosphere sets up. Synthetics exploits this. If you synthetically feed a plant too much it burns, if you get it perfect it flourishes. If you are light then deficiencies set in. You have no way of telling so you do your best. Organically if all the food is in the soil then myco fills the plants orders and adjusts ph in the rhizosphere and the plant always gets what it wants when it wNts and how much it wants. All you have to do is have enough full spectrum soil available. So things like smells, tastes, and colors really change. Its easy to compare, just grow 2 plants side by side. Then there is brix. This is what sets organics to a higher level, no insult intended. Again its proven science. You can raise brix synthetically but its hard and expensive and limited. Organically its easy peasy. High brix means no bugs. Thats because the plant has stronger immunities. If you grow synthetically and don't get bugs hats off to you, you are dialed. If you grow organically and you do get bugs you need to make a change. Better immunities means better health. A healthy plant is a better candidate to achieve its maximum genetic potential. You can eat at McDonalds and get a balanced diet. Do it every day if you think all diets are equal. So heres the real difference... Organics is hard, synthetics are easy. Organics gives you what the seed dictates, synthetics gives you your influenced product that is still within the genetic goalposts of what the seed can do. Again, if anyone wants to argue then grow 2 plants 1st.

 

[InTheShed]

Its kind of a crap shoot. An organic grow selects what it wants, a synthetic grow selects the best thats available.

In theory if you covered every base synthetically the plant would have what it needs at its disposal. This is probably going to start an arguement as it usually does but thats not my intent and I won't partake in it as its easy knowledge to google and I have had it too many times. Its why I try not to compare. Synthetic guys are very defensive. Synthetics are delivered to the plant differently. Hydroponics is a back door to the plant that nature installed so in spring floods when the water table saturates the root zone a massive amounts of nutes are available. High ppm. So why doesnt a plant suffer nute burn? Because nature runs on ph, as the water recedes and the biosphere changes beneath the soil the ph does too. When it comes into range the plant grabs a big bunch of food before ph goes out of range and a rhizosphere sets up. Synthetics exploits this. If you synthetically feed a plant too much it burns, if you get it perfect it flourishes. If you are light then deficiencies set in. You have no way of telling so you do your best. Organically if all the food is in the soil then myco fills the plants orders and adjusts ph in the rhizosphere and the plant always gets what it wants when it wNts and how much it wants. All you have to do is have enough full spectrum soil available. So things like smells, tastes, and colors really change. Its easy to compare, just grow 2 plants side by side. Then there is brix. This is what sets organics to a higher level, no insult intended. Again its proven science. You can raise brix synthetically but its hard and expensive and limited. Organically its easy peasy. High brix means no bugs. Thats because the plant has stronger immunities. If you grow synthetically and don't get bugs hats off to you, you are dialed. If you grow organically and you do get bugs you need to make a change. Better immunities means better health. A healthy plant is a better candidate to achieve its maximum genetic potential. You can eat at McDonalds and get a balanced diet. Do it every day if you think all diets are equal. So heres the real difference... Organics is hard, synthetics are easy. Organics gives you what the seed dictates, synthetics gives you your influenced product that is still within the genetic goalposts of what the seed can do. Again, if anyone wants to argue then grow 2 plants 1st.

That's a pretty complicated answer to my point, which is that both synthetic and organic grows can suffer toxicities from too much of one element or another. I'm not being defensive and not saying one is better than the other.

 

[Gee64]

That's a pretty complicated answer to my point, which is that both synthetic and organic grows can suffer toxicities from too much of one element or another. I'm not being defensive and not saying one is better than the other.

oh you can definitely screw up a plant organically. If you want to see just pour in a ton of calcium and watch it fry. You missed my point. You tell your plants what and when to eat, I let the plant have exactly what it wants when it wants. Do you deal with bugs? Thats the easiest way to know if you are synthetically dialed. No bugs=no worries, your good. Maybe still not maximum genetic potential, but definitely in the ballpark. You only need to be in the ballpark. Grow 2 plants. I can bring a Durban from my tent and toss it in a buddies, and I have. He threw it out because according to him it was so fkd up even the spider mites wouldnt go near it Thats immunity and immunity is health. To achieve your genetics you have to be healthy. There are some pretty gorgeous steroid users in the world but are they healthy? That sort of thing. But if you know your synthetics none of this matters because you make the weed you like. Thats a beautiful thing. I can smell when a guy walks into a room with a bag of synthetic weed in his pocket. I bet @Keffka can too. Its just different not wrong. Its all art. Like I have said many times, Im a purist because weed is a hyper accumulator and I exploit that to learn faster to grow better veggies. Thats where I lay my brixwork.

 

[InTheShed]

You missed my point. You tell your plants what and when to eat,

That's where you're wrong Gee. I'm not telling my plants anything. You can't force feed a plant. It takes what it wants from the soil regardless of how it gets to the roots. Don't believe me? Give a plant a high dose of synthetic K during veg and it will burn. Give it the same dose in flower and it sucks it right up. Build too much N into your organic soil and your plant will show it from the moment it's born, just like overfeeding with nutes will.

 

[Gee64]

I guess this is the eadiest way to explain it. Lets say the synthetics are completely balanced and so is the soil. In the soil the ph is constantly changed in the plants favor to eat what it likes. In synthetics the ph is set and availability is limited on some nutes.

 

[InTheShed]

I guess this is the eadiest way to explain it. Lets say the synthetics are completely balanced and so is the soil. In the soil the ph is constantly changed in the plants favor to eat what it likes. In synthetics the ph is set and availability is limited on some nutes.

Please let's not turn this into a pH discussion. pH is determined by the soil in both synthetic and organic grows.

 

[Keffka]

That's where you're wrong Gee. I'm not telling my plants anything. You can't force feed a plant. It takes what it wants from the soil regardless of how it gets to the roots. Don't believe me? Give a plant a high dose of synthetic K during veg and it will burn. Give it the same dose in flower and it sucks it right up. Build too much N into your organic soil and your plant will show it from the moment it's born, just like overfeeding with nutes will.

So the way I view it, and the reason I call it force feeding, personally, is, with synthetics, you typically have an extremely limited variety of elements. Usually no more than 17-19. Some times a specialized synthetic will include silicate or other things. In organics we have 60+ on average. In synthetics, especially hydro and coco, you’re making the plant wait on you to give their nutrients. Until you’ve become a veteran at this, you’re very likely either starving your plant or over feeding it. In organics, the entire diet is there at all times just waiting for the plant to tell it’s servants what to cook.

This to me is why I see synthetics as being force feeding. You are dictating to the plant the exact things it’s going to be able to eat, and when.

The way it takes up the nutrient is irrelevant to this, you’re still dictating its diet to the hour. Although I’m a believer that take up path is incredibly critical to the organic gardening method, it doesn’t influence why I see it as force feeding.

Over feeding would be how I view toxicity in the medium. You’ve just plain put too much in, or you’ve screwed up the balance and locked everyone up. You can do this easily in every method.

 

[InTheShed]

This to me is why I see synthetics as being force feeding. You are dictating to the plant the exact things it’s going to be able to eat, and when.

If you want to call that "force feeding" you can, but it doesn't accurately describe the way the plant is getting its nutrients from the soil (this isn't a hydro conversation). "Controlled feeding" might be a better term, like the difference between giving your dog two meals a day vs always having food in their bowl.

No one would call morning and evening bowls "force feeding" their dog!

 

[CaptainLucky]

Thanks for the Spog tutorial Shedster, what would @420 Magazine ever do without you? lol. CL.

So this was 2022 outdoor grow, are these Spogs? CL Edit: for the record they were starved of decent nutrients.

 

[InTheShed]

So this was 2022 outdoor grow, are these Spogs? CL Edit: for the record they were starved of decent nutrients.

Not by my definition. You've got side branching and not a single point of green. Still, don't be disappointed since it's no badge of honor!

 

[CaptainLucky]

Not by my definition. You've got side branching and not a single point of green. Still, don't be disappointed since it's no badge of honor!

I just called them Pygmy’s because that’s as tall as they got and they turned me off to Auto’s. CL.

 

[Jon]

Yep.. here’s an example

I don’t use photo editing, filters, or anything, these are just cropped images.

The coloring is deeper and shinier with far more vibrance to it. They’re meatier looking as well. None of these plants have ever been given a foliar or a synthetic, they’re just that shiny from being fed in a balanced organic way.

You can actually see in that third picture the genetics of the plant have been driven by synthetics for a while. The plant has coloring but it’s subdued. Its growth is also being limited on its top end, likely as a result of the genetics being used to force feeding. It’s a decent strain but it’s been hammered into a homogeneous plant during breeding. I could bring it back around after a few generations but it was a fem seed so I don’t have access to its males. The other two were regular seeds but their genes don’t need my help.

Wow @Keffka, that is as dramatic as it gets. My first question was going to be what editing did you use. Whoa. Absolutely crazy beautiful.

 

[Jon]

I just looked it up that would be cool. Sorry if I am butting in.

Wow, what a great idea @StoneOtter ! Again, it did not occur to me to use a form. I was thinking about construction. Awesome. Not sure that’s my form, but excellent idea. Thanks. And @KeithLemon , you have the same right and please do add your commentary at will. Your input is valuable. By no means is this discussion or any other above your pay grade.

 

[Jon]

Its kind of a crap shoot. An organic grow selects what it wants, a synthetic grow selects the best thats available.

In theory if you covered every base synthetically the plant would have what it needs at its disposal. This is probably going to start an arguement as it usually does but thats not my intent and I won't partake in it as its easy knowledge to google and I have had it too many times. Its why I try not to compare. Synthetic guys are very defensive. Synthetics are delivered to the plant differently. Hydroponics is a back door to the plant that nature installed so in spring floods when the water table saturates the root zone a massive amounts of nutes are available. High ppm. So why doesnt a plant suffer nute burn? Because nature runs on ph, as the water recedes and the biosphere changes beneath the soil the ph does too. When it comes into range the plant grabs a big bunch of food before ph goes out of range and a rhizosphere sets up. Synthetics exploits this. If you synthetically feed a plant too much it burns, if you get it perfect it flourishes. If you are light then deficiencies set in. You have no way of telling so you do your best. Organically if all the food is in the soil then myco fills the plants orders and adjusts ph in the rhizosphere and the plant always gets what it wants when it wNts and how much it wants. All you have to do is have enough full spectrum soil available. So things like smells, tastes, and colors really change. Its easy to compare, just grow 2 plants side by side. Then there is brix. This is what sets organics to a higher level, no insult intended. Again its proven science. You can raise brix synthetically but its hard and expensive and limited. Organically its easy peasy. High brix means no bugs. Thats because the plant has stronger immunities. If you grow synthetically and don't get bugs hats off to you, you are dialed. If you grow organically and you do get bugs you need to make a change. Better immunities means better health. A healthy plant is a better candidate to achieve its maximum genetic potential. You can eat at McDonalds and get a balanced diet. Do it every day if you think all diets are equal. So heres the real difference... Organics is hard, synthetics are easy. Organics gives you what the seed dictates, synthetics gives you your influenced product that is still within the genetic goalposts of what the seed can do. Again, if anyone wants to argue then grow 2 plants 1st.

Thanks Gee. Well, I for one am a non defensive synthetic guy because even though I’m a total newbie to growing organic, I know a number of real growers who only grow as you do, believe as you do, and conduct grows regarding organics as you do. I see their weed and their greenhouses and their LED grows, but more to the point, I have smoked tons of purely organic weed and grown plenty of very good synthetic. I’m also not going to argue with anyone, I’m in no position to even if that was my desire. But I will say that my very very strongly held opinion which nobody here can change because it’s also a fact (lol), is that in terms of taste, terps, colors, smells, and effects, there IS no contest. Good Organics DESTROY every nute system invented or that ever will be. There is zero comparison and to me it’s not even close.

So why be defensive about it or anything else? Being defensive is the opposite of suspending ego and an excellent impediment to learning. Lose the you and gain your brain and learn is my deal.

Please keep being as controversial as you like if it’s appropriate. Sticky subjects or those which divide are some of the best learning opportunities. It’s my thread, I won’t let it go crazy. We’re here to learn and have fun, not argue.