Jon's Final Florida Journal For Real

[Jon]

@ViparSpectra Tent
Cherry Pie
Double Grape

We are at the screen and just about ready to start moving stuff.

 

[KeithLemon]

@ViparSpectra Tent
Cherry Pie
Double Grape

We are at the screen and just about ready to start moving stuff.

Your plants are looking fantastic, and I do not know much about growing with a net, but it looks good almost at the net not much time left, and you will be there. thanks for sharing your grow with us it is a learning experience for me. thanks. have a great day Jon.

 

[Jon]

A Tale of Two Skywalkers in 1/2 gallon pots

The sweet one is screaming at me to up pot her to at least a three. She’s awesome. The other one I have no problem letting stay where she is. I’m torn. I want to see what it’ll make in that small a pot, but sometimes you gotta switch gears…

 

[Jon]

Your plants are looking fantastic, and I do not know much about growing with a net, but it looks good almost at the net not much time left, and you will be there. thanks for sharing your grow with us it is a learning experience for me. thanks. have a great day Jon.

Thanks @KeithLemon - one thing to know about growing with a net is that in this particular case my chances are slim to none. It’s taken too long to get to this point. I don’t believe I have enough days before flower to fill before she flips herself. I may get surprised and they may both give me 40 days, but that’s pretty rare. I think I can do it if I train through their stretch, most likely, but then I sacrifice all my verticality in my colas. So what I’m going to do is see how “filled” the screen is when they start to stretch and make the decision of how to finish at that point. Anyone can fill any size net they want with a photo - you just wait to flip. Autos are 100x more challenging to scrog. That said, I get better yields with other types of auto training. I could here simply by blowing off the net. But I like a challenge and the Mano a Mano of me vs the plants. Lmao!!!

 

[Jon]

Hi @Keffka, hope this Saturday finds you well. I was wondering if I can bug you on Saturday please? I tend to fire questions as they enter my brain.

So by now I have the impression that based on all I’ve heard so far, the less one manipulates their plant, the more natural all processes will take place. Is that an accurate statement?

Let’s say it is for the sake of the question. It’s about light. I’m always in the market as I believe the quality of LED makes a huge difference. Many lights now have usually an external controller where they give you the sunrise/sunset option. I’m sure you are familiar. In terms of LED/organic, do you feel having that capability would be impt, along the same lines? What about lights that can dim frequencies independently?
Thanks!!!

 

[Jon]

Hi @Keffka, hope this Saturday finds you well. I was wondering if I can bug you on Saturday please? I tend to fire questions as they enter my brain.

So by now I have the impression that based on all I’ve heard so far, the less one manipulates their plant, the more natural all processes will take place. Is that an accurate statement?

Let’s say it is for the sake of the question. It’s about light. I’m always in the market as I believe the quality of LED makes a huge difference. Many lights now have usually an external controller where they give you the sunrise/sunset option. I’m sure you are familiar. In terms of LED/organic, do you feel having that capability would be impt, along the same lines? What about lights that can dim frequencies independently?
Thanks!!!

Not very well worded. I’m wondering how natural you feel it’s important to attempt to duplicate nature relative to your LEDs.

 

[Keffka]

Hi @Keffka, hope this Saturday finds you well. I was wondering if I can bug you on Saturday please? I tend to fire questions as they enter my brain.

So by now I have the impression that based on all I’ve heard so far, the less one manipulates their plant, the more natural all processes will take place. Is that an accurate statement?

Yes, no, and still undecided lol. The majority of what we do is about balance. If we had unlimited space, in the best climate, then I would be all about letting the plant grow as naturally as possible. However, because we’re going indoors in a container there are a few adjustments we need to make for a more balanced grow.

Some things we want to be hands off with, like germination. Some things we need to balance ourselves since we’re forcing the plant into an unnatural existence, living in a container under a light. Since we’re taking away the penetrating sun, we want more of the light hitting the plant as evenly as possible. We balance that by topping and/or training. Since we’re taking away unlimited root space and nutrient availability, we want to balance that by using a strong, mineralized soil.

Most of the moves we are gonna make are about balancing the grow for our situation vs how it would be in nature. If the moves we’re making aren’t related to balance then they fall into an “other” category. Stuff we don’t necessarily need, but it could be useful and help us out. I’ll expand on the others below

Let’s say it is for the sake of the question. It’s about light. I’m always in the market as I believe the quality of LED makes a huge difference. Many lights now have usually an external controller where they give you the sunrise/sunset option. I’m sure you are familiar. In terms of LED/organic, do you feel having that capability would be impt, along the same lines? What about lights that can dim frequencies independently?
Thanks!!!

Lol, I had the same exact thoughts myself. Anything we can do to replicate nature indoors is a positive in my opinion. Being able to control your light to sunrise and sunset itself by gradually increasing power as it turns on, and vice versa would be much more natural than just blasting on full power then cutting off suddenly.

I’ve gone as far as trying to devise a way to replicate rain as my water source for the plants by using a reptile fogger and drip irrigation system. Water doesn’t naturally pour itself perfectly from a spout, and this can actually shock our plants. That’s why oftentimes plants droop or look sad immediately after watering, they’ve been shocked by it. Same goes for the microbes and fungi. They’re a bit more resilient but it’s still unnatural.

Since we grow in containers, we’re already fairly unnatural to begin with so there are certain things that will be luxuries, and those that will be force multipliers. A force multiplier is a change or addition we make that gives us exponential gains. Stuff like mineralizing the soil, training, fabric pots, etc. Those things give us exponential gains, whether it’s better yield, or higher quality. If we had to put a number I would say these things can have 15% or greater effect on our quality or yield.

Luxuries are improvements we make that will give us a bit more quality or a bit more yield. Basically, things that really aren’t cost efficient but will make a difference at the very top end of quality and yield. Numbers wise, these kinds of improvements will have a lower than 15% effect.

When it comes to dimming/increasing the light to mimic the sun, this is something I would consider a luxury. It’s not gonna make a big difference in the grow because of the way plants photosynthesize. It would make balancing the grow and microbes a bit easier. It would also give the plant a runway, all of which would boost your quality a bit.

Being able to dim/increase frequencies would be a force multiplier in my opinion. Being able to manipulate individual frequencies based on stages of growth would give us even greater control over plant morphology than training, as well as allowing us to really ramp up flower, resin, terpene, and trichome production by simulating seasons.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

really ramp up flower, resin, terpene, and trichome production by simulating seasons.

I'm wondering about this. There's a pervasive idea that light that's heavier in the red spectrum increases yield, and heavier in the blue spectrum increases resin and cannabinoid levels.
I haven't seen any numbers or anything though.
As far as I can tell it comes from old HID growers who had to flower under CMH as they couldn't switch to HPS.
I'm also thinking about all the stressors we put the plants under for the same reason.
My point is, the plant really doesn't want to produce cannabinoids and terpenes, it does so in self defence. So if we mimic all the beneficial aspects of nature resulting in really healthy plants, are they going to be as potent as stressed out ones?
I'm thinking I'm going to have to test that out on some clones.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Sorry, I just realized the light spectrum comment looks like a non-sequitur.
Shifting from blue to red heavy spectra is supposed to mimic the shift in seasons.

 

[Keffka]

I'm wondering about this. There's a pervasive idea that light that's heavier in the red spectrum increases yield, and heavier in the blue spectrum increases resin and cannabinoid levels.
I haven't seen any numbers or anything though.
As far as I can tell it comes from old HID growers who had to flower under CMH as they couldn't switch to HPS.
I'm also thinking about all the stressors we put the plants under for the same reason.
My point is, the plant really doesn't want to produce cannabinoids and terpenes, it does so in self defence. So if we mimic all the beneficial aspects of nature resulting in really healthy plants, are they going to be as potent as stressed out ones?
I'm thinking I'm going to have to test that out on some clones.

Sorry, I just realized the light spectrum comment looks like a non-sequitur.
Shifting from blue to red heavy spectra is supposed to mimic the shift in seasons.

Ehh, I’m kind of just throwing thoughts out with no real cohesion between the thoughts.

Since we’re indoors, I was thinking more along the lines of using heavy blue in Veg to keep the plant squat, tight, and vegetatively vigorous, then amping up red during the shift to flower for its penetrating effect. I’ll dig up the picture of how far light penetrates the leaves but if I remember correctly red goes deep. This would allow us to build bigger buds since we can penetrate further theoretically.

Trichomes are basically a response to light and act as a sunblock, my thinking is with driving the red deeper into the leaves this will force the plant to stack more trichomes. This in turn will signal to the plant that it’s late in the season and needs greater defenses against the light.

I think when it comes to resin and terpene production, it’s more important to allow a plant to sexually mature more than any lighting changes we make, and any changes we do make will only be beneficial in the single digits if we’re not fully mature.

Thoughts?

 

[Keffka]

Here’s the image, I’m trying to find the source

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Ehh, I’m kind of just throwing thoughts out with no real cohesion between the thoughts.

Since we’re indoors, I was thinking more along the lines of using heavy blue in Veg to keep the plant squat, tight, and vegetatively vigorous, then amping up red during the shift to flower for its penetrating effect. I’ll dig up the picture of how far light penetrates the leaves but if I remember correctly red goes deep. This would allow us to build bigger buds since we can penetrate further theoretically.

Trichomes are basically a response to light and act as a sunblock, my thinking is with driving the red deeper into the leaves this will force the plant to stack more trichomes. This in turn will signal to the plant that it’s late in the season and needs greater defenses against the light.

I think when it comes to resin and terpene production, it’s more important to allow a plant to sexually mature more than any lighting changes we make, and any changes we do make will only be beneficial in the single digits if we’re not fully mature.

Thoughts?

I've read about the differences in penetration, and plant morphology, and I've seen how much stretch a red heavy spectrum can induce firsthand.
What I've read also indicates that it's UVB that has the greatest effect on resin and cannabinoid production, not reds.
UVB is the opposite end of the spectrum from reds, and carries a lot more energy. The plant doesn't need protection from red shifted light, as it isn't really energetic enough to cause damage. It's like humans and sunburn. That's caused by UV radiation. Intense enough IR can cause damage, but that's just straight up heat, not radiation burns which can damage DNA, especially in a seed.
You put on sunblock to block UV, and you don't get sunburn, but you can get heatstroke. As I understand it trichomes full of cannabinoids and terpenes are the plant's sunblock.
I really would like to see the weights and potency tests of some clones flowered under HPS, CMH, and a mixed spectrum LED, but I'd have to team up with an HID grower to do that.

 

[Jon]

I'm wondering about this. There's a pervasive idea that light that's heavier in the red spectrum increases yield, and heavier in the blue spectrum increases resin and cannabinoid levels.
I haven't seen any numbers or anything though.
As far as I can tell it comes from old HID growers who had to flower under CMH as they couldn't switch to HPS.
I'm also thinking about all the stressors we put the plants under for the same reason.
My point is, the plant really doesn't want to produce cannabinoids and terpenes, it does so in self defence. So if we mimic all the beneficial aspects of nature resulting in really healthy plants, are they going to be as potent as stressed out ones?
I'm thinking I'm going to have to test that out on some clones.

I use red in flower for every grow on top of my full spectrum. In my experience the red adds frost. My big boy light has all the bells and whistles in the diodes and jumps from 550 watts in veg to 680 watts for flower when you add the reds. My Yoda pro grower buddy in Oregon told me this on my first grow. I’ve done it ever since and in my experience it’s a good thing and creates frost and density. In other tents i use my defunct first grow light Maxsisun blurples on red setting. I never use blue. Not even in veg. It’s less natural in my opinion. I always thought part of the reason for reds in flower wAs to try and mimic the changing sunlight wavelengths that would hit the plant in fall vs spring or summer. But I really am off the cuff here, just my experience.

 

[Jon]

Ehh, I’m kind of just throwing thoughts out with no real cohesion between the thoughts.

Since we’re indoors, I was thinking more along the lines of using heavy blue in Veg to keep the plant squat, tight, and vegetatively vigorous, then amping up red during the shift to flower for its penetrating effect. I’ll dig up the picture of how far light penetrates the leaves but if I remember correctly red goes deep. This would allow us to build bigger buds since we can penetrate further theoretically.

Trichomes are basically a response to light and act as a sunblock, my thinking is with driving the red deeper into the leaves this will force the plant to stack more trichomes. This in turn will signal to the plant that it’s late in the season and needs greater defenses against the light.

I think when it comes to resin and terpene production, it’s more important to allow a plant to sexually mature more than any lighting changes we make, and any changes we do make will only be beneficial in the single digits if we’re not fully mature.

Thoughts?

What you just said reflects my experience in my response to Melville. Almost exactly. I think reds are important and since more red wavelength hits the plant naturally later in life in the fall (natural flower time?) and with the penetrating power of reds (agree with that too) they are well worth it I think. I also started experimenting with side lighting last grow with Hafta’s help for a while. My conclusion is that in veg it is not good but in flower it rocks to help dense up the lower buds. It’s difficult to balance side lighting with overhead in a tent too I found. You can forget all your apps they’re useless. Lol.

 

[Jon]

What you just said reflects my experience in my response to Melville. Almost exactly. I think reds are important and since more red wavelength hits the plant naturally later in life in the fall (natural flower time?) and with the penetrating power of reds (agree with that too) they are well worth it I think. I also started experimenting with side lighting last grow with Hafta’s help for a while. My conclusion is that in veg it is not good but in flower it rocks to help dense up the lower buds. It’s difficult to balance side lighting with overhead in a tent too I found. You can forget all your apps they’re useless. Lol.

Thanks for engaging @Keffka and @Melville Hobbes - I suddenly find myself on a new learning curve and it’s very exciting. The moment I stop learning I’m dead.

 

[Jon]

Thanks for engaging @Keffka and @Melville Hobbes - I suddenly find myself on a new learning curve and it’s very exciting. The moment I stop learning I’m dead.

One of our sponsors sells a big light with three separate dimmers for the three main spectrum bands of blue reds and IR/UV. I checked them out and thought that was brilliant.

 

[Jon]

@Keffka, I’m wondering what is the difference between a colony one has established using say Geo/RGR like I am (semi-organic) vs any grow with mineralized soil one made themselves as you use. (Full organic)? Isn’t the same exact colony of the same microbes by name made in both cases? And if that’s true, then how does one apply the full organic term to soil one began with Ocean Forest as one of you said you do I forget who now. I get we are tent growing and compromising all over, and that may be part of the answer. I get that there is a difference, but I’m still not clear about the exact nature of the difference, if that hopefully makes sense. I’m feeling as if the ‘crobes you make with mineralized soil are in some way superior to a colony made from Geo.

 

[Jon]

A bit of training and an early uppotting in the 420h Closet.

 

[Jon]

Let’s talk a bit about the
@ViparSpectra XS 1500 Pros!

ViparSpectra has nailed these lights in a number of ways. I wanted to attempt to display a few for this oh so involved sponsor of ours who is absolutely fantastic. Val at the helm of us has worked out well for everyone involved, and VS has been very aggressive in terms of hooking us all up and following our grows. How many of you have new VS lights or tents you were gifted? I know I do. It’s very impressive and much appreciated. Thanks Val!

These lights are very powerful for their size. They look like these solid little lights that may help out a little to augment or something. Well….no. Lol. These things are real, legitimate lights that are easy to use for beginners and very effective even by expert standards. The par maps are awesome, and I checked them with the Phototone app in an empty tent. Not the best tester on earth, no Apogee, but it works pretty well and is about 90+% accurate. It tests for me as having as even a par coverage across a given space as any light I have. The evenness of coverage, ie, the way the lights actually disperse the light and the shape of the light field, is fantastic. The way I have them set is perfect for a 2x4 tent, like this one Val gifted me. (Hey Val, lol, you know I’m a huge fan…but the tents are frankly not on the same par as these lights….if you can introduce me to the tent R&D guys I’ll get them squared away for you… ). I joke. Thank you Val. It’s one thing to hook growers up with lights for a budgeted promo. But I bet tents weren’t on the lists. You probably had to take some action there, right? This is what I mean by awesome commitment.

They penetrate very well. I believe part of why is because of the lensing on the outer LED sections. It seems to focus the light downwards and help with the light field shape. Very cool. Even my lower buds come out dense under these lights. And the power for a mere 150 watts is quite impressive too, again I feel the lensing and the way they focus the light is part of the reason for this. As you see them in the pictures they are at 50%. I still have 75 and 100 to play with. Val, many of us feel the lights would be improved with a dimmer that is 100% infinite sweep. By giving us increments on the dimmer the adjunct effect is that basically you guys are controlling our grows to a certain extent. Grower snobs like us appreciate the control and fineness to detail that a full sweep dimmer knob would provide. But that said it works very well and the presets are easy to work around if necessary. It’s a small thing but a big thing if that makes sense.

Two of these work perfectly for a 2x4. Four apparently are equally great in a 4x4. I have used them as side lights in my 5x5 even too! Point being that the lights are flexible and have multiple applications if you choose. A very strong characteristic. They are great as side lights btw.

Overall I am saying I for one am a huge fan and this is a light I would recommend, especially for the beginner. They are super solid, small and easy to work with, and pack a huge punch. I even sold two to my drummer and grower friend in PA who isn’t even with us! (Val I’ll send you my address for the commission check - lmao!!!)

Here’s a photo montage of the ViparSpectra tent showing what I discuss above. There are also old Blurple comparison shots where you can see how far lights have come, especially the diodes and concepts.

 

[KeithLemon]

Is the ViparSpectra older technology. You say it is good for beginners. If I decide to ever start an indoor grow, I will need to find a light that maybe does not cost a whole lot and a tent for beginners. I got an old technology light from Shed for my germinated seedlings. I used a cheap $15 amazon light I used this year and it worked but it is real old technology. The light I was given is a GROWant G5 Pro HiPAR Series and I know it will work fine for seedlings. I still need to figure out how to use the GROWant light I have. All new stuff to me something I have never done before. I really appreciate the light I was given. This light may work for my first 1 plant grow. It is a LED light. Brand new in the box. Never used. Thanks, Shed.