Growing Without Bloom Nutes By Farside05

[farside05]

Is that the 4.2% NH4 to 12.8% NH3 on his chart? When I asked the PT guy he said those ratios would vary depending on the PPM of total N.

He gave this as an example for 200ppm CaCO3:

"Look at the potential basicity or acidity of the fertilizer. With alkalinity of 200 ppm, a fertilizer with a potential acidity of 350-450 CaCO3 equivalent would work well for an all around fertilizer applied at 100 ppm of nitrogen.

"As the rate of N increases for an ammoniacal nitrogen fertilizer, the more potential acidity you are putting on….vice versa for a nitrate nitrogen fertilizer….more potential basicity to raise media pH for NO3 fertilizer. I used 100 ppm of N as an example. There are fertilizer calculators on line that you can use to calculate what fertilizer blend will work for you."

And he gave me a link to a alkalinity calculator on UNH's website (that seems not to be working at the moment). I did mention to him that other than Jack's, most nutes don't list their potential acidity.

He didn't think this was going to be a one-blend-fits-all situation.

The 4.2 and 12.8 is correct, but notice that is in the Granular section. Liquids are on the bottom. I would think that we are dissolving a powder and creating a liquid feed rather than a pelletized slow release granular. Notice in those charts that the "Fertilizer Reaction", where it lists the potential basicity or acidity, is N/A when it comes to liquids. Argo doesn't go into "Why".

"As the rate of N increases for an ammoniacal nitrogen fertilizer, the more potential acidity you are putting on….vice versa for a nitrate nitrogen fertilizer….more potential basicity to raise media pH for NO3 fertilizer. I used 100 ppm of N as an example. There are fertilizer calculators on line that you can use to calculate what fertilizer blend will work for you."

Seems like he's talking about a "one or another" type product rather than a blend of Ammonical and Nitrate. I would think there would be some sort of offsetting reaction that would create an equilibrium in your desired range.

When I asked the PT guy he said those ratios would vary depending on the PPM of total N.

I would mainly be concerned about what the "full strength dose" is, and base my selection off of it. My reasoning: 1) If you are applying a small dose of fertilizer while the plant is young, there's less + or - Nitrogen to upset the balance of your medium. 2) The plant spends way more time in its "adult phase" than it does as a seedling. 3) Its being fed that highest amounts of N, for the longest period of time, as an adult plant.

 

[farside05]

Check this out.

Pot Plant Formula

It's claim, "This formulation has minimal impact of the pH levels of the growing medium."

I believe that it really means "potted plant formula". Its 25% Ammonical and similar to the MSU deal I'm doing other than different N sources. Like the MSU, it has no Sulfur, so you'd have to supplement it somehow, and it has lower Ca and Mg so I could see it possibly needing a supplement there too.

 

[InTheShed]

The 4.2 and 12.8 is correct, but notice that is in the Granular section. Liquids are on the bottom. I would think that we are dissolving a powder and creating a liquid feed rather than a pelletized slow release granular. Notice in those charts that the "Fertilizer Reaction", where it lists the potential basicity or acidity, is N/A when it comes to liquids. Argo doesn't go into "Why".

"As the rate of N increases for an ammoniacal nitrogen fertilizer, the more potential acidity you are putting on….vice versa for a nitrate nitrogen fertilizer….more potential basicity to raise media pH for NO3 fertilizer. I used 100 ppm of N as an example. There are fertilizer calculators on line that you can use to calculate what fertilizer blend will work for you."

Seems like he's talking about a "one or another" type product rather than a blend of Ammonical and Nitrate. I would think there would be some sort of offsetting reaction that would create an equilibrium in your desired range.

When I asked the PT guy he said those ratios would vary depending on the PPM of total N.

I would mainly be concerned about what the "full strength dose" is, and base my selection off of it. My reasoning: 1) If you are applying a small dose of fertilizer while the plant is young, there's less + or - Nitrogen to upset the balance of your medium. 2) The plant spends way more time in its "adult phase" than it does as a seedling. 3) Its being fed that highest amounts of N, for the longest period of time, as an adult plant.

My plants probably live at 120ppm range (4.5g) for as long as the live at the higher range (132 and 160), so I'm not sure where I would settle out, but I did specifically ask him if there was a single ratio I could use to establish equilibrium and he said no.

Check this out.

Pot Plant Formula

It's claim, "This formulation has minimal impact of the pH levels of the growing medium."

I believe that its really means "potted plant formula". Its 25% Ammonical and similar to the MSU deal I'm doing other than different N sources. Like the MSU, it has no Sulfur, so you'd have to supplement it somehow, and it has lower Ca and Mg so I could see it possibly needing a supplement there too.

I think I looked at that one but the lack of Ca, Mg and S made me pass on it. Though TPS is 4.5 Ca/1.1 Mg, and adding epsom salt would boost the Mg and the S...

If the 63ppm of S in your formula doesn't present an issue, that's a more elegant solution that allows me to amortize my $72 investment in MC.

 

[farside05]

My plants probably live at 120ppm range (4.5g) for as long as the live at the higher range (132 and 160), so I'm not sure where I would settle out,

When I used to use Dyna Gro Foliage Pro, which is 33% Ammonical, I ran around 125ppm N as "full strength". It wasn't until I went to almost all Nitrate Nitrogen products that I started targeting closer to 150. Ammonical seems to react a bit "hotter". So if you do choose to modify your MC with some Ammonium Sulfate, keep that in mind.

 

[InTheShed]

Well that's something to watch out for!

 

[FelipeBlu]

Or just quit worrying about your substrate and go hempy.

 

[InTheShed]

Don't show that post to Azi!

 

[FelipeBlu]

He’s not in on our good-natured kidding?

 

[InTheShed]

Do you have his source handy? I don’t think I have had any problems at 65-80ppm S. I think it’s an important component of flavor.

Besides my reply here, it looks that S is around 10% of N in the charts farside references on page 1 of this thread, which I'll repost:

This is a pdf they came from.

He’s not in on our good-natured kidding?

He didn't think I was so he moved on from my journal. I only thought the joke was getting a bit tired, but ya can't please everyone!

 

[farside05]

Hmmm, now I'm pondering my decision to supplement with MSU with Potassium Sulfate to get the missing Sulfur. If I chose Ammonium Sulfate instead, I could get up to 19% Ammoniacal.

MSU+Ammonium Sulfate+Faux Tekt.png

• farside05
• Sep 22, 2021

 

[InTheShed]

Now you're thinking! Glad I could help.

Are you going to slurry test to see if it's even necessary for you to add in NH4? You might want to have the ability to hit higher K numbers.

 

[farside05]

Now you're thinking! Glad I could help.

Are you going to slurry test to see if it's even necessary for you?

I can attempt but I don't know how reliable the results will be. My pH pen is a cheapo, I'm out of calibration solution packets, and it's not stored in storage solution. I would venture to say there is some creep that shows up late in my grows. Occasionally I'll have nice pretty foliage right up close to the end and then things get ugly with dried discolored leaves. More than just late stage fade. The fact that I've predominantly grown autos is probably why it hasn't been as big of a factor for me vs you. 73 days seems like a decent average for my autos and you'll have plants in veg for more than that.

 

[InTheShed]

That explains a lot...I don't think I've ever vegged a plant for only 73 days! The current ones in flower vegged over 150 by the time I got rid of all the problems with the shite soil!

And my Jack Herer has already vegged 68 and I'm not close to flipping yet, so I can see why this is more a "me" problem.

 

[farside05]

That explains a lot...I don't think I've ever vegged a plant for only 73 days! The current ones in flower vegged over 150 by the time I got rid of all the problems with the shite soil!

And my Jack Herer has already vegged 68 and I'm not close to flipping yet, so I can see why this is more a "me" problem.

And my photos get flipped around week 5 or they'd outgrow the tents, so maybe 105 days start to finish?

I'm sure having manageable pot sizes doesn't help either, but you can't be schlepping 20 gallon containers full of wet peat in and out of the shed daily.

For shits and gigs I just grabbed the pH meter and put it in some distilled water. The display was jumping from 2 to 18. Didn't even know a pH of 18 was possible. Replaced the batteries. Now it's reading 4.0. I doubt that's right. Per the interwebs, it's probably more like 5.8 since the jug has been previously opened and exposed to the environment. I could recalibrate it to read 5.8 before doing my slurry.

 

[FelipeBlu]

Your bulb is probably fried.

I’m just gonna say, that after seeing your (Shed’s) issues with substrate pH and having to do slurry tests and change fertilizers, I think I have it good with perlite. During the long grow last year, I really only had to check pH of my solution when I changed the dosing, but I never had to worry about the pH of my substrate.

 

[farside05]

Further tests of my pH pen. I remembered that I checked the pH of a batch of Faux-Text after it was made. Checked my thread for it and it was 11.5 with a freshly calibrated pen. Put my pen in a batch of Faux-Tekt and it read 9.5. So yes, it appears that it's reading about 2.0 too low. The distilled water is probably actually 6.0.

Why is the pH of distilled or deionized water not neutral?​

Both distillation and deionization
systems aim to remove impurities from water. The processes work in different ways and have different strengths and weaknesses, but remove many of the ions commonly found in tap water such as carbonates, nitrates and others.

What is left should be only H2O – pure water – which in theory has an exactly neutral pH of 7.0

In reality, as soon as the water comes into contact with air, CO2 (carbon dioxide) begins to dissolve into it. This dissociates to form a mild acid called carbonic acid (this is the same way that acid rain is formed) – as shown in the equation below;

CO2 + H2O –> HCO3– + H+

This means that most distilled or deionized water will have an acidic pH below 7.0, sometimes as low as pH 5.5

 

[FelipeBlu]

Don’t store your pH pen in deionized or distilled water. It will leach ions from the bulb.

Your bulb might be salvageable if you store it in the correct solution (4M potassium chloride) for a week or so.

 

[farside05]

Don’t store your pH pen in deionized or distilled water. It will leach ions from the bulb.

Your bulb might be salvageable if you store it in the correct solution (4M potassium chloride) for a week or so.

It was just stored dry in a drawer since in general I don't have a need to use it. I have the Potassium Chloride and even posted Instructions on how to make your own pH storage solution.

 

[FelipeBlu]

I enjoy cannabis - I lose track.

 

[InTheShed]

it appears that it's reading about 2.0 too low.

As I recall, pH meters are logarithmic and not arithmetic in their differences, like the Richter scale. So 2 points is WAY off.

This means that most distilled or deionized water will have an acidic pH below 7.0, sometimes as low as pH 5.5

Below 7 and above 5.5 is why we correctly store and calibrate our pH meters.

I have the Potassium Chloride and even posted Instructions on how to make your own pH storage solution.

LOL! Do as I say, not as I do.