Growing with Coco: Questions, Answers & Scuttlebutt

[bud brother]

Sorry I should have been more specific. I didn't use a brick but rather a bag of expanded 'pre-washed' coco coir. My memory's shot (surprise) but I think it was Canna brand, but I'm not positive. I remember the bag was black and i just looked up the canna stuff and its not black so unless they changed idk

Doubt it was canna dont come in black bag and is one of the best coir going ,way better than screwing round with those cheap bricks.Couple of rinses and its good to go, All you need is a little calmag away ya go.K.I.S.S. dont make things to complicated ..

 

[HorseBadoritz]

This is an excerpt from Galaku

Quote:
HOW TO USE COCOPEAT IN POTTING MIXES

To improve the wettability and water holding ability for indoor and outdoor potting mixes add between 20% and 50% Cocopeat (Galuku Coir) by volume to the mix. Thoroughly mix the Cocopeat (Galuku Coir) in and add about 20 grams of Gypsum to every 100 litres of Cocopeat (Galuku Coir) used. Do not lime as Cocopeat (Galuku Coir) is not acidic. Feed the mix with liquid feed or slow release fertiliser.
You use Gypsum because it won't raise the pH and it provides Calcium and Sulfur. The wettability refers to the often heard complaint about anything that is peat based.

 

[HorseBadoritz]

lifted from I C

coco is not inert like rockwool, perlite or clay balls, but because of it's water and air holding property it can be used sort like a hydro medium and in hydro systems. But one cannot for instance adjust the pH of the coco on the fly by adjusting the pH of the irrigation water. And one cannot measure the pH of the coco solution that the roots are surrounded by, by measuring the runoff that is a result of feeding with nutrients...

in a coco grow, water pH is not king. One reason we know this is because of the variance in irrigation water pH used by many successful growers using coco only. 5.5, 5.6-6.2, 5.8, 5.8-6.2, 5.3-6.3, etc.

Another reason we know this is because the topic has been recently studied in labs, especially at Michigan State University by Bill Argo, Paul Fisher and a few others. They've demonstrated that the water alkalinity (buffering capacity) and the type of nitrogen (ammoniacal vs nitrate) used has a much greater affect on medium pH than does the water pH.

I've found and think most other coco growers will agree that the pH of really good coco is very stable throughout a grow. I started out growing in coco only by keeping the irrigation water pH in a range - 5.6 -6.2. But than I did one grow where it was 5.8 the whole time and that worked out fine too. Part of the reason for the confusion is that because of it's other physical properties, coco can be used in hydro systems, but it is still much more like peat in terms of pH and EC mgmt. than it is like rockwool, perlite or clay balls. The CEC of the last three is much lower if anything (?).

Instead of runoff, one should measure the pH and EC of the coco solution surrounding the roots by using the "N.C. State pour through" method, which really isn't that much different in practice accept that you test with distilled or r.o. water after already feeding to saturation, instead of testing the runoff that is a result of the saturation. See the difference?


good references:

Understanding Water Quality Bill Argo and Paul Fisher
Understanding Water Quality Bill Argo and Paul Fisher

Substrate pH and Water Quality Douglas A. Bailey, Paul V. Nelson, and William C. Fonteno

THE EFFECT OF NUTRIENT SOLUTION PH ON PHOSPHORUS AVAILABILITY IN SOILLESS CULTURE OF TOMATO Jacek Dyśko, Stanisław Kaniszewski,Waldemar Kowalczyk Research Institute of Vegetable Crops Skierniewice, Poland



Understanding Plant Nutrition: Nutrient Sources: Media Cation Exchange Capacity By Bill Argo and Paul Fisher
Greenhouse Grower: Understanding Plant Nutrition: Nutrient Sources: Media Cation Exchange Capacity

pH Management and Plant Nutrition, Bill Argo
Orchid, Water Quality, Fertilizer, pH Management, Nutrition

Part 1 Intro
Part 2 Water Quality
Part 3 Fertilizers
Part 4 Substrates
Part 5 Choosing the Best Fertilizers

Addressing pH Problems By Matt Taylor and Dieter Lohr
Greenhouse Grower: Addressing pH Problems

PourThru Sampling - for testing medium pH and EC
NC State Floriculture Information Center-PourThru Sampling

 

[CocoJoe]

High Coco Joe, thanks for popping in. How fine is the coco you use? I've got the GH Groteck 5k block, and it seems super fine. Worried me, so I cut in 20-25% perlite. I'll try a straight one next.

And, did one watering schedule work better?

Hot water and squeezing are going into my to do list. Thanks.

Hi Brother,

I mix Bontanicare piece coir and regular coir. 50/50 No perlite needed!
I use the bales. During the rinse, I'll eliminate the coco mud from the good part.
The mud will be on the very bottom of the 5 gal' bucket.

Coco works best when kept wet!

After 2-3 wks into 12/12, hand watered (nutes and water) twice a day seems to be the way.
I always water with 50% run to waste. Always some Cal/Mag included.

And sometimes (watch the plants) I flush with Clearex. Then I wait a day to feed again. This seems to always cause a growth spurt.

cocoJoe

 

[HorseBadoritz]

Hi Brother,

I mix Bontanicare piece coir and regular coir. 50/50 No perlite needed!
I use the bales. During the rinse, I'll eliminate the coco mud from the good part.
The mud will be on the very bottom of the 5 gal' bucket.

Coco works best when kept wet!

After 2-3 wks into 12/12, hand watered (nutes and water) twice a day seems to be the way.
I always water with 50% run to waste. Always some Cal/Mag included.

And sometimes (watch the plants) I flush with Clearex. Then I wait a day to feed again. This seems to always cause a growth spurt.

cocoJoe

Highdee Ho Joe!

Glad to see you back. It's starting to sink in that coco likes to stay wet

Our local store has started to carry the Canna coco, which looks very coarse compared to the GH coir. Think that would work as a 50/50 mix?

Have you done any coco hempys?

 

[CocoJoe]

Highdee Ho Joe!

Glad to see you back. It's starting to sink in that coco likes to stay wet

Our local store has started to carry the Canna coco, which looks very coarse compared to the GH coir. Think that would work as a 50/50 mix?

Have you done any coco hempys?

No reason to coco hempy.
The chunky fibery stuff mixed with regular should work fine.
Good thread friend.

cocoJoe

 

[HorseBadoritz]

No reason to coco hempy.
The chunky fibery stuff mixed with regular should work fine.
Good thread friend.

cocoJoe

Morning Joe, thanks for helping here

You drain to waste then? Is the 50% runoff to get O2 in there?

Thanks again for joining in

 

[Setting Sun]

OK, after doing a bunch of reading on watering coco, and listening to a bunch of people growing with it, I think I've got some semblance of a clue, maybe.

You can water coco frequently, and it will perform very well that way, but because of it's high CEC, it will retain lots of salts, so if you push lots of salts through it by watering frequently, you need to water with lots of runoff, like the 50% CoCoJoe mentioned, water every third time with just water, and/or do regular thorough flushes every few days with just water and/or something like Clearex.

If you treat coco more like soil, you won't have as much problem with salt build-up, but you won't achieve hydro or near-hydro results with it either.

Also, it seems like the general consensus on where to run your PH is 5.8-6.0, dropping down a bit if you develop deficiencies because the CEC increases at lower PH levels and that releases more nutes.

Understanding coco's CEC is the key to watering it the right way, no matter how you want to do it, because it has a wide tolerance, but it seems like keeping it moist performs best *if* you water and/or flush enough to remove excess salts.

 

[Propa Gator]

Easy and forgiving. Wow, economical too!

Coco Coir

 

[Setting Sun]

My two Sunset Kush moms have been in coco and haven't given me a lick of trouble.

That was the old brick of crappy coco I rinsed real well before using. They've been in 5" pots with one tsp of either DM or OC prills, can't remember which. I haven't been consistent with the PH of the water, and it's been a very forgiving medium.

I'm transplanting them into 2gal pots of 100% very-well-rinsed coco before I flower them, that's how much I like the stuff.

I have another big brick of the obviously not-ready-to-use Hydrofarm coco, so for grins I'll check the ppm when I hydrate it.

The Hydrofarm coco has nice texture, just needs a good rinsing, which their instructions don't mention.

I rinsed some under hot water in the kitchen sink today and I don't expect any trouble with it.

 

[Propa Gator]

I have two PX moms with thick trunks is 3.5" pots. Coco
I prefer to replace rather than trans up to bigger. Six or eight months is enough.

 

[kailpot]

I was real happy to come across this coco thread!....it would be great to have a coco sub category here.

I hand-water to waste. Plants are in 11 Litre pots, and I water about every 2nd day. I normally pick the pot up and know by the weight of the pot if it needs a water.

I've been enjoying my last few grows in coco...but still don't understand it fully. I have read much conflicting information regarding it. One thing I'm really confused over is the runoff. I feed to about 25% runoff, but sometimes still have the runoff EC value more than 0.4EC higher as BC Grow talks about here:

The 25 — 30% waste regime ensures that salt buildup in the media is kept to a minimum, and means flushing is typically never required; the agricultural standard being a 30% waste regime with the runoff being no more than 0.4EC higher than the original nutrient feed.
EC can be tested in the runoff and be compared to the nutrient EC.

I have flushed previously about once every few feeds, to try to get the high EC runoff value down, but I recently read NOT to do this....something about the coco buffering nutrients and if I flush with plain PH'd water I will hurt the plants because it will take a while for the nutes to build back up in the coco?? Sorry if I've made this question confusing, but if anyone can explain, please do!

I have grown indoors in 100% Canna and 100% canadian express. I also grew in a no name chip stuff /perlite mix which was horrible! Cheers for a great thread too! Nice to see you here cocojoe!

 

[Propa Gator]

I water about every 2nd day

You could try everyday, the total amount should be the same.
Higher discharge dissolved salts may not be all that bad, to a point.
Check your plant's health first, meter readings second.

I've never flushed my coco root balls with plain water. Steady fertigation

 

[Setting Sun]

How much runoff on your waterings PG?

 

[Propa Gator]

My runoff got hidden when I went to a common sump. Also, I was/am unsure of equal distribution, so I over watered. About a quart per day per plant, and I needed a pump-out sooner than I expected. Too little can be a problem, but not too much except for the cost. I'm once again looking into mixing my own chemicals, if I can buy them all. Or at least a pro sized sack for economy. I never want to feel pinched on fertigation, flush with plenty.

 

[HorseBadoritz]

I was real happy to come across this coco thread!....it would be great to have a coco sub category here.

Welcome to the show Kalipot, Yeah, most other cannabis sites do have at least one coco forum... but a sub-forum would do

Coco! Coco! Coco!

 

[HorseBadoritz]

Coco Coir
By: Erik Biksa


Courtesy of Maximum Yield Magazine

As with peat, there are factors affecting the quality of use of the coir as a growing medium. The origin and age of the parent material largely plays a role in the fiber qualities. Coconuts harvested when fully mature contain more lignins and cellulose. These fibers are tough and durable enough to manufacture rope from. Interestingly, coconut fiber is the only natural fiber resistant to breaking down in salt water. This helps make it ideal for indoor gardeners, as nutrient solutions, particularly popular inorganic varieties and the salts they contain, play a role in the erosion of growing medias over the course of the crop.

An interesting fact about coconut harvesting from the Royal Botanical Gardens, KEW website: "...in some coconut-growing areas in Indonesia and Thailand the pig-tailed macaque monkey (Pithecus memestrinus) has been trained to climb the trees to collect the nuts. The monkeys are well-treated and prized for their skill...."

After the coir fiber is separated from the nut, it is then soaked in slow moving pools or streams to moisten it, allowing for further separation and processing. If the coir fiber is intended for high value horticultural crops, care must be taken to remove salts. Often these streams are near or contain saltwater. Some sources of coir are high in sodium, as a result of poor conditioning. "Double washed" coir fibers tend to have significantly lower levels of impurities such as sodium.

To help determine the quality of your new and unfertilized coir fiber, flush 1.5 liters of distilled water through 1 liter of growing media, and measure the runoff with a dissolved solids tester. This is based on the Dutch RHP method of analytical procedure. Chart 1-A illustrates the final analysis of two coco coir samples that are well suited to growing applications based on their salt content. Note that the test does not provide information as to the structure of the coir, just specific ions as impurities. Both samples have significant levels of soluble Calcium, Magnesium, and Potassium, suggesting that they have been pre-treated to satisfy the CEC requirements of the soil.
An overall value of 150 ppm or less characterizes a very pure material, while values up to 500 ppm have likely been treated to condition the media. Values greater than 500 ppm should be suspect in containing excessive sodium levels. Sodium levels should be kept as low as possible. Levels at over 100 ppm would be considered excessive and over 250 ppm are considered toxic.
The compressed forms require hydrating. Although the hydration process may be laborious, the dried and compressed blocks are much easier to transport to and inside of the growing location. The blocks are ideal for remote outdoor gardens. In compressed form, the blocks typically take up about 1/5th of the space as commercial peat mixes, and are much lighter in weight. For example a 5KG block of compressed coco coir measures about 10" X 10" X 4" and when expanded yields near 72 liters of high quality growing media. That's enough to fill nine 2 gallon pots; one block per 1000W HID lamp.

Some coirs have been chemically treated, this is most often the case with loose pre-hydrated varieties versus compressed blocks. The treatment has been done to satisfy the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of the growing media. As a refresher, "cations" are positively charged ions, such as Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, and Potassium. This means that the growing media will hold these ions in a matrix, releasing them as required by plants. There is one slight drawback to this. Until the cation exchange capacity of the growing media is filled, the growing media may hold positively charged nutrient ions, most notably calcium, in reserve, making them less available to plants. However, the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of the coir media is quickly filled, and actually assists calcium absorption in the crop cycle. To ensure optimum availability of all nutrients, supply additional calcium during the first week of growth or during the hydrating process of the coconut coir. Calcium supplement products are ideal for this. Some nutrients specifically formulated for coco tend to have elevated levels of calcium and magnesium while having lower levels of nitrogen.

I want a helper monkey

 

[CocoJoe]

You drain to waste then? Is the 50% runoff to get O2 in there?

No! The mix is full of O2 when applied.
The runoff is for flushing/starting fresh, every day!

I resisted using straight coco for years.
Mix piece coir with regular coir.

cocoJoe

 

[HorseBadoritz]

No! The mix is full of O2 when applied.
The runoff is for flushing/starting fresh, every day!

I resisted using straight coco for years.
Mix piece coir with regular coir.

cocoJoe

Gotcha Joe,

Resistance is futile

 

[kailpot]

You could try everyday, the total amount should be the same.
Higher discharge dissolved salts may not be all that bad, to a point.
Check your plant's health first, meter readings second.
I've never flushed my coco root balls with plain water. Steady fertigation

ok, gonna try watering everyday!

Welcome to the show Kalipot, Yeah, most other cannabis sites do have at least one coco forum... but a sub-forum would do

Cheers HorseBadortiz, ye I've had to resort to consulting other sites for info regarding coco It would be real nice to have a sub-forum right here!