bud brother
New Member
High BC, Cool, welcome to coco land!
If you find any coco info, bring it by this thread
Roger that Horse I'm in now, love to try new stuff.Any thing worth looking at i'll post here thanks
BC
Growing with Coco: Questions, Answers & Scuttlebutt
- Thread starter HorseBadoritz
- Start date
Roger that Horse I'm in now, love to try new stuff.Any thing worth looking at i'll post here thanks
BC
Interesting article on coco, and talks a bit about CEC, or cation exchange capacity, which has to do with how a particular medium retains and releases nutes.
https://www.igrowhydro.com/InfoSheets/InfoSheet-CocoGrowingMedia.pdf
https://www.igrowhydro.com/InfoSheets/InfoSheet-CocoGrowingMedia.pdf
bud brother
New Member
Coco coir buffers at between pH 5.5 and 6.5. This means the media helps to maintain optimum root zone pH (resulting in optimum nutrient uptake).
Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC)
Coir has a high cation exchange capacity.
Cation exchange capacity refers a medias ability to exchange cations between mineral and organic matter and the plants roots.
Cations are positively charged elements such as calcium (Ca++), magnesium (Mg++), and potassium (K+).
Cations are held by negatively charged particles called colloids. The defining feature of colloids is that the particles are small and consequently the total surface area is huge. For this reason the negatively charged colloids are capable of holding enormous quantities of positively charged cations.
As plant roots uptake cations, other cations in the nutrient replace them on the colloid.
If there is a concentration of one particular cation in the media, other cations will force them off the colloid and take their place.
This means that a mineral balance is maintained in coir and these minerals are readily available for uptake.
Root Zone Health
Coco coir provides excellent insulation. This means that coco coir isn't as prone to overheating, due to excessive ambient air temperatures, as many other mediums (making it ideal for warm geographical zones). This is because water tends to make its way into the lower regions of the coco coir, leaving the top layer dry. Because of this, heat needs to penetrate a drier top layer of coco coir before reaching the watered areas of the media. As water is a great conductor of energy (in the form of heat) the lower wet area being protected by a drier surface helps keep the lower areas of the media, where the bulk of the root mass is found, cooler. As media temperature and oxygen levels are interrelated (the warmer the media, the less oxygen) this insulation plays an important role in promoting root health.
Compare coco coir to rockwool, another run—to-waste media. There are some significant differences in moisture distribution and media insulation qualities. Rockwool tends to become evenly saturated. Water, thus, distributes evenly from top to bottom, leaving the rockwool, typically, very damp. This means that heat can travel throughout the media (dry rockwool is an excellent insulator; it is simply that water conducts heat). When the ambient air temperature is excessively warm, so too is the media. Depending on the extent of this problem (too warm — not enough oxygen), oxygen availability to the root zone can become dangerously low.
As I've already pointed out, coco coir tends not to do this. Water displaces from the surface of the media and moves into the lower regions. Because of this the media generally remains significantly cooler around the root zone of the plant.
Secondly, coco coir contains natural rooting compounds, in the form of potassium (electrolytes) and phosphorous (enzyme function/sugar production). Both potassium and phosphorous stimulate root growth and development.
Thirdly, coco coir has excellent air filled 'porosity' — the term used for the levels of oxygen availability (critical for transpiration) in the media. This is due to the large surface area of coco coir particles. As oxygen plays an all-important role in respiration (roots pumping nutrient to the plant) this factor further promotes root and (hence) plant health.
What all of these factors add up to is that coco coir provides a sound environment for the plant's root zone. This factor should not be underestimated because healthy roots invariably lead to a healthy plant (and a healthy yield).
The Fundamentals of Coir (the good, the bad, and the ugly)
The coconut palm, unlike many other plants', is a salt tolerant plant.
What happens with salt tolerant plants' is that they uptake salt and displace it to areas of the plant where the salt can do the least harm. In the case of the coconut palm the salt is displaced to the coir — the very thing that we use as a growing media. This means coir can contain high levels of salt (sodium chloride), something which can prove toxic to many/most plants.
On top of this coir contains large amounts of potassium and quantities of other elements.
What this means is that coir requires special treatment to ensure a premium quality hydroponic media product is supplied to the end user.
Analysis of Coco Coir Sample
S 1978
P 126
K (Potassium) 3700*
Na (Sodium) 2022 *
Ca 119
Mg 104
Cu
Zn 3.2
Mn 3.8
Fe 12.2
B 7
Cl (Chloride) 3498*
All figures refer to parts per million (ppm).
Above, is an analysis of one batch of hydrated coco coir. It is easy to see that coco coir contains varying levels of micro and macro elements.
The most significant elements in the analysis are the high potassium levels and the extremely high sodium and chloride levels (sodium chloride = salt).
Potassium competes with magnesium and calcium while sodium competes with potassium for uptake. Furthermore, sodium chloride can be highly toxic to certain species of plants; even in relatively low levels, sodium chloride can have devastating effects on root health and development. For instance, this batch of coco coir caused phytotoxicity (yellowing of leaves, rusting/burning, sick plants etc) when trialled under controlled conditions next to another product that performed well.
Source of Material
Coir derived from palms that are grown 50kms inland will have far less sodium chloride present than coir that is derived from palms that are grown close to the sea. That is, less sodium chloride present in the soil results in less sodium chloride in the coir.
The origin of the coir is an important factor in determining the quality of the end product.
Flushing and Buffering
In order to prepare the raw coir product for use it is necessary to flush plentiful amounts of water through the product to wash out impurities (including sodium chloride).
Premium grade coir is then buffered with various elements to prepare the coir for use. This requires flushing the coir with mineral elements in order to compensate for potentially problematic levels of sodium chloride and potassium (and other elements where required).
For instance, Iron is sometimes used to offset sodium chloride while magnesium and calcium is used to compensate for the naturally present, often high levels of potassium and phosphorous (While potassium and phosphorous are naturally used by plants and are beneficial elements, extreme levels of these elements can result in imbalanced nutrition and mineral element lockout).
Typically, most suppliers of hydrated coir only flush the media and do not buffer it. This can prove detrimental to plant vigor and health, particularly in early growth.
Symptoms of toxicity include:
- Rusting (particularly on leaf edges)
- Yellowing
- Slow stunted growth
- Mineral deficiencies (due to uptake problems)
- Purpling of stem
Treatment/Age of Raw Product
Coco coir has a shelf life where optimum performance is concerned (due to organic decomposition factors).
Ideally the raw coir used in hydroponic medias should be less than two years old.
Older coir is difficult to manage and will not last as long as newer coir.
Tips for using Coir
Run-to-waste regime
After many years of experimenting in coir, both in indoor and outdoor settings, with various crops I have found that running a 25% - 30% waste regime is the most user friendly means of growing in coir.
The 25 — 30% waste regime ensures that salt buildup in the media is kept to a minimum, and means flushing is typically never required; the agricultural standard being a 30% waste regime with the runoff being no more than 0.4EC higher than the original nutrient feed.
EC can be tested in the runoff and be compared to the nutrient EC.
Air Porosity
Typically, the bagged (hydrated) coir products sold via hydroponic outlets consists of fine particles and coir dust. While this means excellent fluid retention, it also means less than ideal air porosity in the media. Adding Perlite to the media will increase air porosity. A 60% coir to 40% Perlite mix being ideal (50/50 is also OK).
Another means of increasing air porosity is by mixing larger coir particles into the coir fines/dust, thus lifting the media and achieving a similar effect to a coir/perlite mix.
pH
Ideally, the nutrient should be maintained at between 6.1 (grow) and 6.3 (bloom).
pH cannot be measured in the runoff. Ie. The runoff does not accurately reflect what is happening within the coir where pH is concerned. To test the pH of coir, take a sample of the coir from the root zone and add 1 part of coir to 5 parts of distilled water, shake and measure pH.
A little something i came across good read BC
Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC)
Coir has a high cation exchange capacity.
Cation exchange capacity refers a medias ability to exchange cations between mineral and organic matter and the plants roots.
Cations are positively charged elements such as calcium (Ca++), magnesium (Mg++), and potassium (K+).
Cations are held by negatively charged particles called colloids. The defining feature of colloids is that the particles are small and consequently the total surface area is huge. For this reason the negatively charged colloids are capable of holding enormous quantities of positively charged cations.
As plant roots uptake cations, other cations in the nutrient replace them on the colloid.
If there is a concentration of one particular cation in the media, other cations will force them off the colloid and take their place.
This means that a mineral balance is maintained in coir and these minerals are readily available for uptake.
Root Zone Health
Coco coir provides excellent insulation. This means that coco coir isn't as prone to overheating, due to excessive ambient air temperatures, as many other mediums (making it ideal for warm geographical zones). This is because water tends to make its way into the lower regions of the coco coir, leaving the top layer dry. Because of this, heat needs to penetrate a drier top layer of coco coir before reaching the watered areas of the media. As water is a great conductor of energy (in the form of heat) the lower wet area being protected by a drier surface helps keep the lower areas of the media, where the bulk of the root mass is found, cooler. As media temperature and oxygen levels are interrelated (the warmer the media, the less oxygen) this insulation plays an important role in promoting root health.
Compare coco coir to rockwool, another run—to-waste media. There are some significant differences in moisture distribution and media insulation qualities. Rockwool tends to become evenly saturated. Water, thus, distributes evenly from top to bottom, leaving the rockwool, typically, very damp. This means that heat can travel throughout the media (dry rockwool is an excellent insulator; it is simply that water conducts heat). When the ambient air temperature is excessively warm, so too is the media. Depending on the extent of this problem (too warm — not enough oxygen), oxygen availability to the root zone can become dangerously low.
As I've already pointed out, coco coir tends not to do this. Water displaces from the surface of the media and moves into the lower regions. Because of this the media generally remains significantly cooler around the root zone of the plant.
Secondly, coco coir contains natural rooting compounds, in the form of potassium (electrolytes) and phosphorous (enzyme function/sugar production). Both potassium and phosphorous stimulate root growth and development.
Thirdly, coco coir has excellent air filled 'porosity' — the term used for the levels of oxygen availability (critical for transpiration) in the media. This is due to the large surface area of coco coir particles. As oxygen plays an all-important role in respiration (roots pumping nutrient to the plant) this factor further promotes root and (hence) plant health.
What all of these factors add up to is that coco coir provides a sound environment for the plant's root zone. This factor should not be underestimated because healthy roots invariably lead to a healthy plant (and a healthy yield).
The Fundamentals of Coir (the good, the bad, and the ugly)
The coconut palm, unlike many other plants', is a salt tolerant plant.
What happens with salt tolerant plants' is that they uptake salt and displace it to areas of the plant where the salt can do the least harm. In the case of the coconut palm the salt is displaced to the coir — the very thing that we use as a growing media. This means coir can contain high levels of salt (sodium chloride), something which can prove toxic to many/most plants.
On top of this coir contains large amounts of potassium and quantities of other elements.
What this means is that coir requires special treatment to ensure a premium quality hydroponic media product is supplied to the end user.
Analysis of Coco Coir Sample
S 1978
P 126
K (Potassium) 3700*
Na (Sodium) 2022 *
Ca 119
Mg 104
Cu
Zn 3.2
Mn 3.8
Fe 12.2
B 7
Cl (Chloride) 3498*
All figures refer to parts per million (ppm).
Above, is an analysis of one batch of hydrated coco coir. It is easy to see that coco coir contains varying levels of micro and macro elements.
The most significant elements in the analysis are the high potassium levels and the extremely high sodium and chloride levels (sodium chloride = salt).
Potassium competes with magnesium and calcium while sodium competes with potassium for uptake. Furthermore, sodium chloride can be highly toxic to certain species of plants; even in relatively low levels, sodium chloride can have devastating effects on root health and development. For instance, this batch of coco coir caused phytotoxicity (yellowing of leaves, rusting/burning, sick plants etc) when trialled under controlled conditions next to another product that performed well.
Source of Material
Coir derived from palms that are grown 50kms inland will have far less sodium chloride present than coir that is derived from palms that are grown close to the sea. That is, less sodium chloride present in the soil results in less sodium chloride in the coir.
The origin of the coir is an important factor in determining the quality of the end product.
Flushing and Buffering
In order to prepare the raw coir product for use it is necessary to flush plentiful amounts of water through the product to wash out impurities (including sodium chloride).
Premium grade coir is then buffered with various elements to prepare the coir for use. This requires flushing the coir with mineral elements in order to compensate for potentially problematic levels of sodium chloride and potassium (and other elements where required).
For instance, Iron is sometimes used to offset sodium chloride while magnesium and calcium is used to compensate for the naturally present, often high levels of potassium and phosphorous (While potassium and phosphorous are naturally used by plants and are beneficial elements, extreme levels of these elements can result in imbalanced nutrition and mineral element lockout).
Typically, most suppliers of hydrated coir only flush the media and do not buffer it. This can prove detrimental to plant vigor and health, particularly in early growth.
Symptoms of toxicity include:
- Rusting (particularly on leaf edges)
- Yellowing
- Slow stunted growth
- Mineral deficiencies (due to uptake problems)
- Purpling of stem
Treatment/Age of Raw Product
Coco coir has a shelf life where optimum performance is concerned (due to organic decomposition factors).
Ideally the raw coir used in hydroponic medias should be less than two years old.
Older coir is difficult to manage and will not last as long as newer coir.
Tips for using Coir
Run-to-waste regime
After many years of experimenting in coir, both in indoor and outdoor settings, with various crops I have found that running a 25% - 30% waste regime is the most user friendly means of growing in coir.
The 25 — 30% waste regime ensures that salt buildup in the media is kept to a minimum, and means flushing is typically never required; the agricultural standard being a 30% waste regime with the runoff being no more than 0.4EC higher than the original nutrient feed.
EC can be tested in the runoff and be compared to the nutrient EC.
Air Porosity
Typically, the bagged (hydrated) coir products sold via hydroponic outlets consists of fine particles and coir dust. While this means excellent fluid retention, it also means less than ideal air porosity in the media. Adding Perlite to the media will increase air porosity. A 60% coir to 40% Perlite mix being ideal (50/50 is also OK).
Another means of increasing air porosity is by mixing larger coir particles into the coir fines/dust, thus lifting the media and achieving a similar effect to a coir/perlite mix.
pH
Ideally, the nutrient should be maintained at between 6.1 (grow) and 6.3 (bloom).
pH cannot be measured in the runoff. Ie. The runoff does not accurately reflect what is happening within the coir where pH is concerned. To test the pH of coir, take a sample of the coir from the root zone and add 1 part of coir to 5 parts of distilled water, shake and measure pH.
A little something i came across good read BC
Grower Z
New Member
I've been searching around on the websites of the companies that sell coir products.
They all advise customers to use the same basic program.
1. Precharge the coir with calcium nitrate or regular nutrient solution
2. Water as the plants need it until roots fully established than water multiple times daily with less volume at each interval for a more uniform wetting profile.
These are not the distributors that we're used to seeing in the hydro stores in the USA. These are probably the companies that Sunleaves, GH, etc. get the coir from.
Links follow
Growing in Coir - www.alternativegardensupplies.co.uk (.pdf)
Galuku Cocopeat Growbags Fact Sheet
BENEFITS OF USING POTTING MIXES CONTAINING COCOPEAT - Galaku Cocopeat
Instructions for the use of coco coir - Performa Globalys (.pdf)
Coco Growbag Support - Millenniumsoils Coir
***
That being said, you can top drip, pulse feed or handwater coir, you can use coir in Hempy buckets....
This is an excerpt from Galaku
You use Gypsum because it won't raise the pH and it provides Calcium and Sulfur. The wettability refers to the often heard complaint about anything that is peat based.
They all advise customers to use the same basic program.
1. Precharge the coir with calcium nitrate or regular nutrient solution
2. Water as the plants need it until roots fully established than water multiple times daily with less volume at each interval for a more uniform wetting profile.
These are not the distributors that we're used to seeing in the hydro stores in the USA. These are probably the companies that Sunleaves, GH, etc. get the coir from.
Links follow
Growing in Coir - www.alternativegardensupplies.co.uk (.pdf)
Galuku Cocopeat Growbags Fact Sheet
BENEFITS OF USING POTTING MIXES CONTAINING COCOPEAT - Galaku Cocopeat
Instructions for the use of coco coir - Performa Globalys (.pdf)
Coco Growbag Support - Millenniumsoils Coir
***
That being said, you can top drip, pulse feed or handwater coir, you can use coir in Hempy buckets....
This is an excerpt from Galaku
You use Gypsum because it won't raise the pH and it provides Calcium and Sulfur. The wettability refers to the often heard complaint about anything that is peat based.
- Thread starter
- #45
HorseBadoritz
Well-Known Member
High GrowerZ, thanks for coming by and dropping off those links 
Good to know about the lime, I almost got a 40# bag of dolomite yesterday... good thing it was on the top shelf and I was feeling lazy!
Good to know about the lime, I almost got a 40# bag of dolomite yesterday... good thing it was on the top shelf and I was feeling lazy!
Grower Z
New Member
Growing in Cocopeat - A farmers perspective - Andrew Olley
Propa Gator
New Member
Slaked plaster of Paris is nearly pure gypsum. Drywall has too much crap in it.
420pharms
New Member
I have been a coco grower for some time, international cannagrafic is were I found most info on coco growing, The only thing about prepping coco that I didn't see mentioned is that it's naturally high in potassium and should be buffed with calcium calmag 5 to 10ml per gal ph buff and soak, then charge with nutes and use. I have been concidering using some DTE to control pests in medium but fear it may raise calcium level so for now plain coco in ebbgro works good for me worked good in g.h. waterfarms as well. I really like the eco and labor friendly way of disposing it when used some may reuse it up to 3x but I augment my yard and garden dirt with it
420pharms
New Member
sorry I didn't see the other 4 pages on topic. my stupid
What brand of coco do you use PG, and how do you prep it?
I was really discouraged when I had the trouble with that Hydrofarm brick that I didn't rinse before using, but now that I flushed the hell out of it, it's kicking ass.
The Dynamite that I incorporated into the mix seems to be working extremely well also. I think prills work a lot better in media that retain moisture well, like coco and soil.
Grower Z
New Member
One brand that I wouldn't use again are the Sunleaves blocks...
Propa Gator
New Member
I think the stuff I'm planting now with is Botanicare, with a block of GH Cocotek on deck. Whatever is available @11 to 13 dollars per 5kg block. I didn't like the bricks I bought sometime back, but it works too. I simply pour water on the dry stuff, break it up a bit, then load into containers. I rinse under a faucet to pack it perfectly, and until the red/brown color subsides. Less flushing than hella. WTW feeding flushes away enough of the rest.
When I learn the exact Ca/Mg content of my source water, I might mix in gypsum and add epsom salt. CRFs look very attractive, but I'm still influenced by methods that I believe are used by very large commercial growers of vegetables. Tomatoes in your local market are likely grown in Wilcox AZ in rockwool, WTW 30%.
Pure coir may be too dense for large pots, but my little grow vessels seem to aerate sufficiently. Sweet-smelling dross is good.
When I flushed mine after I had the plants growing in it for a few weeks, it took a while before the water became clear. Lots of that reddish-brown stuff, and I have to assume lots of salt along with it.
Man, the plants are loving the stuff now.
I've read that you can treat coco like soil and that you shouldn't treat coco like soil.
Many advocate more frequent watering than soil, and to not let your coco dry out like soil before watering.
That somewhat defeats one of my favorite things about it, which is the excellent water retention and possible decreased watering frequency, but if it works better kept moist, then I won't treat it like soil.
Since it's really hard to over-water it, it lends itself to more frequent watering, but I'd rather treat it like soil if I could cause I'm lazy.
Grower Z
New Member
spooked by what could have simply been a bad batch. it smelled like mulch and everything it touched turned yellow.
Grower Z
New Member
You can water it like soil, but a more constant moist profile, i.e. fewer less volume irrigations = higher yield. This is when people talk about coir as a hydro medium
Yeah, that's a little disappointing, since I thought I could treat it like soil and still get the benefit of hydro's faster growth and bigger yield.
I hear Hempy (the person) waters his coco hempy buckets every day in bloom, and that's just not attractive to me.
Oh well, can't have everything I guess.
Maybe I'll do my own 50/50 FFOF/coco mix and see how that goes.
I hear Hempy (the person) waters his coco hempy buckets every day in bloom, and that's just not attractive to me.
Oh well, can't have everything I guess.
Maybe I'll do my own 50/50 FFOF/coco mix and see how that goes.
Propa Gator
New Member
I too water my bloomers everyday except when I'm too stoned and blow it off. No harm is obvious from these occasional abuses. When I get my little pumps rigged propa to a timer, once per week attention is all they'll need. Most days, I tap two gallons into one bucket, and one gallon into another. I measure Lucas formula (H&G bottles are empty) into each, then attach the feed lines to immersion pumps and put them in the buckets. Pump until they're sucking wind and done, 10 minutes work.
I have my automated hempy system in my head, and all the gear I need to do it. Just need the time.
Since I'm using a CRF and the reservoir will only need to hold water, it should be *extremely* low maintenance.
I'm not serving up soup.
Since I'm using a CRF and the reservoir will only need to hold water, it should be *extremely* low maintenance.
I'm not serving up soup.
Hi All,
Once a day
Twice a day
Every other day
I have tried it all.
Rinse it well in hot tap water.
1 brick in a 5Gal. bucket. let it soak 24 hours. Scoop it out with a strainer.
Sqeeze out all the water you can.
Charge with Cal/Mag.
It's ready to use.
Done 50/50
75/25
just coco is best!
Once a day
Twice a day
Every other day
I have tried it all.
Rinse it well in hot tap water.
1 brick in a 5Gal. bucket. let it soak 24 hours. Scoop it out with a strainer.
Sqeeze out all the water you can.
Charge with Cal/Mag.
It's ready to use.
Done 50/50
75/25
just coco is best!
