Fools Rush In: Newbie's Adventures In Suboptimal Conditions

[Trala]

Thanks Tra! Lovely to have you stop by!

Honestly, I haven't seen anyone growing cannabis like this. But then, it's almost completely a product of the physical constraints of the cabinet. Most people don't need to grow cannabis like this, lol ! It's definitely costing me in veg time more than, say, a quadline would.

I came up with the idea based on the cabinet's dimensions, and also varying the quadline. Incredibly, @FelipeBlu informed me that there's a technique for training fruit trees, called "espalier". It's the exact same idea, structurally speaking.

Never grown bonsai before, although I have a fascination for the style. An easier way for me to achieve something similar without as much training would be to use a scrog/trellis net, placed "vertically" rather than on the usual horizontal plane above the plant. But it just wouldn't look as good. This current technique also allows me to more easily plan/prepare for the exact number of possible tops.

It's just way more fun than using a net. But who knows.. I may get tired of this "high touch" regime over time!

It all sounds very mathematically science like.

I don’t mean to show off, but I too have a background in math with a twist of science. I can convert litres to gallons (If I have a calculator) and I once did a pH of my growing soil.

This feels like a true meeting of brilliant minds LOLLINGGGGG!

Its an interesting way to grow, and I can’t wait to see what you produce

 

[CraCraCarl11]

Abstract map of current node sites and their orientation.

”W”-like symbols represent nodes whose branches grow out left and right. “E”-like symbols represent nodes whose branches grow up and down.

The long squiggly lines on either side represent the bamboo stakes, and also where light drop-off occurs.

I drew it to help me think about what growth to keep for the upward growth phase. Still pondering.

@syenite before I reply to your response I must to your map. Throughout your grows you have been so detailed and scientific about it. Some things I never thought of going so in depth with. Your like Syenite The Fried Weed Science guy . Not dissing at all very impressed cause honestly I love marijuanna and not just cause it gets me high. Well yea cause it gets me high but the plant itself is amazing. Years ago I knew all these random things bout the plant and growing. Some left my mind and some stuck. Yea things have boomed with growing. Like when I did before light info less in depth and LEDs where new, exspensive, and unproven. You def had more people with guinea rigged lights like I was. I actually used red and blue reflectors on lights learning changing the tint through even reflection helped. You bro wow.
As far as what to trim off. Honestly I avoided trimming any bottom nodes. Lower 1s I would top sometimes. I always used the horizontal train method though. So I based it on I got a main top then many just behind some. As only her true top of each branch wasn't horizontal. As more side branching I did what I could to allow light to all. Trimming parts of upper leaves to allow more light. Then some I would trim and others hack branches and try to clone. Back then just a angled cut and scrapping some of the bottom stem. I averaged 1 in 3 having them sit in just water. But up to you. If you want to try cloning which I suggest now while you got pretty much free seeds. Try old school trim bottom at about 90 degrees. Then scrap a tiny bit of the outer stem at the bottom using scissors or whatever. Put in water where mainly just stem is emerged. Wait a week and maybe. It needs light but obviously shield bottom stem. Or get cloning powder I was going try some but can't find it. Ordering will take a week and by then little point. Plus side branching is just starting in all but autos. Like I just kept em alive long enough for them to try again.
Sorry going long again but yea I use neem oil, an insecticide soap also natural and coffee grounds. Which have helped ph issue also. Something I never checked years ago and had no issues. Seems ph of mix and approx is 33% miricalegro organic potting/generic mix, 23% coconut, 33% perlite with vermiculite, 1% dirt lol. Far more professional then my $3 bag of soil and left overs from old plantera. But oh gets stupid almost 7.5. I can get it down to 6 but if I don't keep adjusting after a week goes up again. I got opposite issue as you @syenite too alkaline. Coffee grains help cause it keeps it lower with moisture but it's just odd. Just like bugs plus ph and nute issues that I never had b4. Makes me just wanna take dirt and miraclegro again lol.

 

[Stunger]

Honestly, I haven't seen anyone growing cannabis like this. But then, it's almost completely a product of the physical constraints of the cabinet. Most people don't need to grow cannabis like this, lol ! It's definitely costing me in veg time more than, say, a quadline would.

I came up with the idea based on the cabinet's dimensions, and also varying the quadline. Incredibly, @FelipeBlu informed me that there's a technique for training fruit trees, called "espalier". It's the exact same idea, structurally speaking.

Never grown bonsai before, although I have a fascination for the style. An easier way for me to achieve something similar without as much training would be to use a scrog/trellis net, placed "vertically" rather than on the usual horizontal plane above the plant. But it just wouldn't look as good. This current technique also allows me to more easily plan/prepare for the exact number of possible tops.

It's just way more fun than using a net. But who knows.. I may get tired of this "high touch" regime over time!

I think your approach is a perfectly good one, you got your lights on the side so growing out your plant in an espalier fashion seems most practical, similar to a quadline when it is trained to be low and flat for stealth reasons or to maximize sunlight. I have seen someone on 420 who grows his plants sandwiched flat between two grills and gets impressive yields too, maybe his was indoor and lighting from the sides too, but I only remember seeing the end results which were flat, 2 dimensional and weighty.

 

[MrSauga]

...

Reported.... git outta here!

 

[syenite]

It all sounds very mathematically science like.

I don’t mean to show off, but I too have a background in math with a twist of science. I can convert litres to gallons (If I have a calculator) and I once did a pH of my growing soil.

This feels like a true meeting of brilliant minds LOLLINGGGGG!

Its an interesting way to grow, and I can’t wait to see what you produce

I saw through your I'm-a-dum-dum charade from day 1 Tra! Don't give me this bs LOL!

Thank you!! Still some ways to go. But not far from flipping now. GOD IMAGINE IF IT TURNED OUT MALE!

@syenite before I reply to your response I must to your map. Throughout your grows you have been so detailed and scientific about it. Some things I never thought of going so in depth with. Your like Syenite The Fried Weed Science guy . Not dissing at all very impressed cause honestly I love marijuanna and not just cause it gets me high. Well yea cause it gets me high but the plant itself is amazing. Years ago I knew all these random things bout the plant and growing. Some left my mind and some stuck. Yea things have boomed with growing. Like when I did before light info less in depth and LEDs where new, exspensive, and unproven. You def had more people with guinea rigged lights like I was. I actually used red and blue reflectors on lights learning changing the tint through even reflection helped. You bro wow.
As far as what to trim off. Honestly I avoided trimming any bottom nodes. Lower 1s I would top sometimes. I always used the horizontal train method though. So I based it on I got a main top then many just behind some. As only her true top of each branch wasn't horizontal. As more side branching I did what I could to allow light to all. Trimming parts of upper leaves to allow more light. Then some I would trim and others hack branches and try to clone. Back then just a angled cut and scrapping some of the bottom stem. I averaged 1 in 3 having them sit in just water. But up to you. If you want to try cloning which I suggest now while you got pretty much free seeds. Try old school trim bottom at about 90 degrees. Then scrap a tiny bit of the outer stem at the bottom using scissors or whatever. Put in water where mainly just stem is emerged. Wait a week and maybe. It needs light but obviously shield bottom stem. Or get cloning powder I was going try some but can't find it. Ordering will take a week and by then little point. Plus side branching is just starting in all but autos. Like I just kept em alive long enough for them to try again.
Sorry going long again but yea I use neem oil, an insecticide soap also natural and coffee grounds. Which have helped ph issue also. Something I never checked years ago and had no issues. Seems ph of mix and approx is 33% miricalegro organic potting/generic mix, 23% coconut, 33% perlite with vermiculite, 1% dirt lol. Far more professional then my $3 bag of soil and left overs from old plantera. But oh gets stupid almost 7.5. I can get it down to 6 but if I don't keep adjusting after a week goes up again. I got opposite issue as you @syenite too alkaline. Coffee grains help cause it keeps it lower with moisture but it's just odd. Just like bugs plus ph and nute issues that I never had b4. Makes me just wanna take dirt and miraclegro again lol.

Hey thanks Carl! I'm just a deep-digger by nature. Was dismantling things even as a kid. Much to my family's horror, I often couldn't put them back together. TV remotes, telephones, my brother's GI Joes - nothing was safe from me and my screwdriver.

Yup I will definitely consider taking some clones although I wish I had sexed some clones earlier so I know whether this plant is even worth my time and effort.

That pest control combo sounds good! Hopefully those holes stop appearing in your leaves, haha.

If you're dealing with slugs and stuff you can also create a physical barrier around the bottom of the plant. I think there are products called "slug collars" which are glorified plastic cones/tubes around the base of the plant.

I hope the pH issue turns out ok. In the scheme of things, 7.5 isn't the worst to have to deal with!

I think your approach is a perfectly good one, you got your lights on the side so growing out your plant in an espalier fashion seems most practical, similar to a quadline when it is trained to be low and flat for stealth reasons or to maximize sunlight. I have seen someone on 420 who grows his plants sandwiched flat between two grills and gets impressive yields too, maybe his was indoor and lighting from the sides too, but I only remember seeing the end results which were flat, 2 dimensional and weighty.

Thanks Stunger!! I would love to see this grower's content if you still know where to find it? Yeah, that approach is what I think of as a "vertical scrog".

Reported.... git outta here!

Damn. For a second I thought I was being offered some free seeds

 

[FelipeBlu]

I might need to start pinching the tips of each main branch to slow them down, and to let the secondary growth catch up!

That would be a good plan.

 

[Stunger]

Thanks Stunger!! I would love to see this grower's content if you still know where to find it? Yeah, that approach is what I think of as a "vertical scrog".

You're in luck, the grow was by @gr865 who found he was getting too old to be crawling under plants. He's done a really impressive job of training his girls in this vertical manner. Here's the thread of his last grow: GR's 5 Plant Vertical Grow Winter 19/20 , some nice weighty ready to harvest pics on page 7.
Actually @gr865's grow is so impressive I am glad your prompting me to find it has given me the opportunity to look thru again. Here's one of his stunning close to harvest pics, I was trying to embed the pic but weren't able to figure it out, so gotta click the link. GR's 5 Plant Vertical Grow Winter 19/20

 

[syenite]

You're in luck, the grow was by @gr865 who found he was getting too old to be crawling under plants. He's done a really impressive job of training his girls in this vertical manner. Here's the thread of his last grow: GR's 5 Plant Vertical Grow Winter 19/20 , some nice weighty ready to harvest pics on page 7.
Actually @gr865's grow is so impressive I am glad your prompting me to find it has given me the opportunity to look thru again. Here's one of his stunning close to harvest pics, I was trying to embed the pic but weren't able to figure it out, so gotta click the link. GR's 5 Plant Vertical Grow Winter 19/20

Wow........ that's incredible.

Thanks so much for sharing this. Respect to @gr865.

Yup, so he doesn't have "side lighting" but he has "centre lighting" lol. The plants are all clustered around a light in the middle.

I definitely think that if I get tired of doing all this training I will swap to a scrog net like that.

 

[gr865]

You're in luck, the grow was by @gr865 who found he was getting too old to be crawling under plants. He's done a really impressive job of training his girls in this vertical manner. Here's the thread of his last grow: GR's 5 Plant Vertical Grow Winter 19/20 , some nice weighty ready to harvest pics on page 7.
Actually @gr865's grow is so impressive I am glad your prompting me to find it has given me the opportunity to look thru again. Here's one of his stunning close to harvest pics, I was trying to embed the pic but weren't able to figure it out, so gotta click the link. GR's 5 Plant Vertical Grow Winter 19/20

Thanks for the kind words, it is a lot of work but worth it.

I will be starting germ for my next grow on 7/22, my bday! 73 years of age, have a good life, great GF, good son and happy to be alive!

 

[Stunger]

Thanks for the kind words, it is a lot of work but worth it.

I will be starting germ for my next grow on 7/22, my bday! 73 years of age, have a good life, great GF, good son and happy to be alive!

Happy Birthday gr865! And I didn't even mention how much I enjoyed your horizontal grow too. So pleased you made a journal for your wonderful gardening! All the best.

 

[gr865]

Wow........ that's incredible.

Thanks so much for sharing this. Respect to @gr865.

Yup, so he doesn't have "side lighting" but he has "centre lighting" lol. The plants are all clustered around a light in the middle.

I definitely think that if I get tired of doing all this training I will swap to a scrog net like that.

More shots from that grow, was not my best, needed to change the lamps. Got new ones for my next grow.

 

[syenite]

More shots from that grow, was not my best, needed to change the lamps. Got new ones for my next grow.

Thanks so much for sharing! And happy birthday!!

Love your setup and love your approach. Didn't look to me like there was anything wrong with that lamp, based on the yields you were getting. But maybe that means your next grow will be even more monstrous!

 

[Stunger]

I might need to start pinching the tips of each main branch to slow them down, and to let the secondary growth catch up!

What do you mean by pinching the tips of each main branch?
I have seen this expression written before but I wasn't sure how to read it. I first thought it meant to squeeze and crush the growing end of a branch a little, but some postings where they talk about 'pinching' it sounds like they mean to remove off the growing end of the branch more like topping the branch. On my last grow I did substantial super cropping and LST along with Quadlining in an attempt to keep my plants growing with a stealthy low vertical profile, but next grow I am thinking of further inhibiting the length of the growing branches by carrying out super cropping earlier when stretching begins, or, if pinching is the right expression, crushing/damaging the growing tips to slow down the veg growth. Just curious as to how to interpret your mention of pinching.

 

[syenite]

What do you mean by pinching the tips of each main branch?
I have seen this expression written before but I wasn't sure how to read it. I first thought it meant to squeeze and crush the growing end of a branch a little, but some postings where they talk about 'pinching' it sounds like they mean to remove off the growing end of the branch more like topping the branch. On my last grow I did substantial super cropping and LST along with Quadlining in an attempt to keep my plants growing with a stealthy low vertical profile, but next grow I am thinking of further inhibiting the length of the growing branches by carrying out super cropping earlier when stretching begins, or, if pinching is the right expression, crushing/damaging the growing tips to slow down the veg growth. Just curious as to how to interpret your mention of pinching.

Yeah I stumbled onto this ambivalence too when I was looking it up. In one context it's another word for topping or possibly fimming.

In my context, I mean pinching between the nodes to crush/damage the stem/branch - essentially the first part of supercropping without the bending!

I'm letting all the growth shoot upwards now. But the tips of the main branches are going to be far ahead of all the secondary growth just starting along those branches. So I want to slow those branch tips down, to give the new growth a chance to come up.

I am thinking of either pinching in the 3rd or 4th internode space down from the tip of each branch. I'm also considering pinching the branches much closer to the stem, to try to toughen and thicken them.

... but honestly, it effing terrifies me to think about doing this. LOL! I've snipped and I've bent and I've tied. Not too bad. But this one freaks me out.

 

[Stunger]

Yeah I stumbled onto this ambivalence too when I was looking it up. In one context it's another word for topping or possibly fimming.

In my context, I mean pinching between the nodes to crush/damage the stem/branch - essentially the first part of supercropping without the bending!

Yes, just as you describe it there, "to crush/damage.. essentially the first part of supercropping without the bending", that's how I also imagined it too, that it could be a good way to restrain unwanted growth.

Last season I supercropped my plants in order to maintain their profiles within my stealth limits (so they didn't become noticed by my neighbors). That was good, except by the time I had extensively supercropped and LST'ed them, the various branches seemed to have grown to be 4 foot long but only having a cola of half/less than half that, a waste of length that contributed to overly large/wide canopies that were a PITA to work with in the relatively small space of my balcony. So this year I'd like to hold back some of that unwanted veg growth while being happy for the root base to develop all it wants and similarly when flowering kicks off I'd be happy for the buds to grow all they want.

... but honestly, it effing terrifies me to think about doing this. LOL! I've snipped and I've bent and I've tied. Not too bad. But this one freaks me out.

It is a very destructive action, it does seem very counter to looking after them, but actually to just follow the advice of softening then crushing/bending it works really well. I got so nonchalant about it that sometimes I just missed the softening stage and bent/folded/cracked the stems and on those times I mostly got away with it, a couple times I pretty much clean snapped the branch but on taping it up with some electrical tape it always healed up amazingly well. The first time I saw @gr865 training his stems it really cracked me up as he wasn't pissing around being the plant's best friend, he had a pair of pliers and was just crushing them to sit how he wanted them to be, there was none of that, oh it's too woody to supercrop business, he just used his pliers, that's confidence and it showed in his results. It's a very tough plant and some would say it responds even more potently under pressure, even if you break something the chances are you can tape it up.

 

[syenite]

the various branches seemed to have grown to be 4 foot long but only having a cola of half/less than half that,

Was this because of (lack of) light exposure for the lower half?

softening then crushing/bending it works really well

Full disclosure: just practiced on one of the backup plants LOL. Twisting it to soften it up and then bending it does work well.

This last hour has been very eventful.

sometimes I just missed the softening stage and bent/folded/cracked the stems and on those times I mostly got away with it, a couple times I pretty much clean snapped the branch but on taping it up with some electrical tape it always healed up amazingly well

Yup I already did this and broke a branch almost clean off. It was still hanging. Have taped it up.

I think I did the right thing to just get in there and try it though. I feel way better about all this now.

Also, I had imagined the branches to be a lot softer/weaker than they actually are! I thought I would be able to pinch them hard enough to break the outer rigid surface. But I couldn't do it! Very cool to get a literal feel for how strong they are.

oh it's too woody to supercrop business, he just used his pliers, that's confidence and it showed in his results

Haha! I think I've heard about this before. Feel like I read somewhere that some people wrap their plier noses with tape so as to reduce the risk of completely obliterating the stem/branch

 

[Stunger]

Was this because of (lack of) light exposure for the lower half?

I was thinking it was just stretching, they all took off, especially the sativa dominant one. I'd like to inhibit the stretching but keep the bud sites.

Haha! I think I've heard about this before. Feel like I read somewhere that some people wrap their plier noses with tape so as to reduce the risk of completely obliterating the stem/branch

He was using just bare metal pliers that were causing multiple splits into each crushing to get a bend, there's a practiced nonchalance to that.

 

[gr865]

Thanks so much for sharing! And happy birthday!!

Love your setup and love your approach. Didn't look to me like there was anything wrong with that lamp, based on the yields you were getting. But maybe that means your next grow will be even more monstrous!

The buds were very airy, not tight like I am used to getting. Nothing has changed in my setup so it had to of been either light or strain. That strain was supposed to be very tight buds.

 

[CraCraCarl11]

Slugs no issue as the coffee grounds do a great job. I was skeptical myself until I found a slug and sprinkled some on it. It didn't melt like with salt. What i saw was it slowly turn green then die. Hope it didn't feel pain though I hate slugs. I read and it's grasshoppers and or crickets. If seeds don't show up may just move the best plants in the tent. I thought of mowing all the grass away but fear then they would feast more on the plant as they live in the ground. I didn't know they did till I read into it. Seeds obviously still waiting on unfortunately. I have hope as I read that the USPS is working extremely slow due to budget cutbacks. Be nice to see it just scanned into a new facility already no updates since the 19th. I ordered somethings to compare shipping time. I figure if I get the package from Cali 1st there's an issue. I will maybe try clones but need side branching and cloning powder. Still I want my seeds and truly hate bugs now even grasshoppers. Leave my babies alone.

 

[syenite]

Random question: does anyone know how important it is to "simulate" a sunrise/sunset via gradual dimming/brightening of the LEDs before and after dark?

I'd not really heard of this before, and don't know if it's folklore/unfounded?