Doc Bud's High Brix Q&A With Pictures

[ClosedCircuit]

CC get that RH situation fixed as soon as you can. It will help your grow much more than any tweaks your going to do to your soil. I live in Vegas so I have the same problem, once I stopped being lazy and got my RH up where it should be everything else fell right in line Also your circulating fan should always be left on, ESPECIALLY if your concerned about mold.

I grow in a small cab so adding a humidifier is almost not possible. Trust me, I have 3-4 months before my next grow because I will be out of country, during that time RH is on the top of my list of things I need to fine tune with my set up. I have a couple work-arounds in mind that will help me in my next grow.

 

[Graytail]

Most of us aren't eager for an argument or debate, and the conversation has seemed to naturally move that direction.

I imagine it might be difficult to answer questions about LOS if the questioner remained skeptical and followed each answer with another question. It starts to sound unfriendly. There are many hundreds of pages already published, which many of us have already read. The whole process has taken years to develop and test. Much of it is still not well-understood, but the underlying research is right where it always was, on the interwebs.

Like Doc, I consider the TLO/LOS crowd to be cousins to HBers. We both nuture and propagate biota to feed our plants for us, and it's been very interesting to see the reaction. I didn't expect the defensiveness, but I suppose I should have.

This is Doc's High Brix Q&A thread, so questions are entirely appropriate, but sheesh, could we dial it back a little? Maybe take what you've been told and followup on it before firing off more probing questions?

We add exact, calibrated, proven ingredients after thorough testing. Other methods add some of this and some of that, without knowing what's in their soil to start with, and have faith that things will balance themselves. I will concede that that's more fun.

What drew me to Doc's kit were the results. Most of us don't know why it works, you see - we just like the plants it grows.

So, yep, you're going to get us on a gotcha if you keep firing off questions. You probably know what you're doing, but I grow pretty healthy plants, and their produce will blow you away. (Sorry, I just love puns).

 

[Doc Bud]

I will likely get my soil tested. Can any of you recommend a soil testing facility out of state where I can specify the crop is cannabis? or would that be a bad idea? lol Should I just get my soil tested locally and not specify crop?

If you PM me, I'll tell you exactly how to do that.

RE: inorganic salts

The term "organic" is a political term. Many natural substances---occuring in nature, all by themselves---are not listed OMRI. Others are, but only if a certain amount is used and no more! For example, Chilean Nitrate is as natural as you can get! It's dug out of the ground.....same as Azomite or rock dust.

But Chilean Nitrate is only "organic" is it comprises no more than 20% of a product. Once you get to 21% you are no longer organic, legally speaking.

All these salts you seem concerned over are also naturally occurring. When you look at a natural soil, out in the wilderness, some are red, some are brown, some are yellow.....depending on what salts are found in the soil!

When a goat urinates on soil, ammonia and urea, along with creatine, creatinine, allantoin, phosphates and sulfates are all put into the soil, or soon form when the urine interacts with the soil. These are salts.....and nothing could be more natural! A good friend of mine fertilizes his entire vinyard by letting goats and sheep trim the grass in-between rows of grapes.

There is absolutely no difference between letting a goat urinate on the soil, or adding simple, naturally occuring salts obtained elsewhere. The only question we must ask is if the soil needs those salts!

So if the ammonium sulfate comes out of a goat, you're organic. But if it comes out of a bag or bottle you're not. That's total BS!!!
Gypsum=Calcium sulfate....a salt. Soft Rock Phosphate=Calcium phosphate and a bunch of other salts. Epsom Salt=magnesium sulfate...another salt.

These salts aren't evil, neither are they bad for the soil! In fact, in properly living soil---like the soil you use, Sue and CC----your biota are making these salts 24/7. Your plants move nutrients through the tissues via phosphorus.....phosphates! That's right, your plants are making salts! Sugars too.

Organic matter breaks down via microbial action to produce salts. Dirt contains salts. Salts are everywhere. They are natural and they are ESSENTIAL to proper plant health.

Having said that, excess salts---like excess organic fertilizer which creates excess salts organically---are detrimental to the soil. So we find that it's best to let most salts be formed by microbes, directed by root exudates in the plant. That's how plants should work....the leaves create exudates, which go to the roots, which feed the soil, which then feeds the plant what it asks for.

But it's also important to for the soil to have things in balance, especially minerals and ions. The naturally occuring salts in my amendments are CATIONS mostly......ammoniacal forms of nitrogen. This is to balance out the anionic forms of energy...nitrates.

Sometimes we want Cationic soil....so we add ammoniacal nitrogen and other cations. This stimulates reproductive growth. Other times, we want anionic soil....calcium nitrate, potassium nitrate, chilean nitrate......and this stimulates growth.

The bottom line is that everything I put into my soil is there for a reason....to make the soil healthy and alive so that plants grow well. This means that I might have to add iron in the form of a salt, or zinc, or boron.

Many soils do not have what they need, so we add things, including natural, safe, salts. There is NOTHING detrimental about this. In fact, it is essential for plant health.

Bottom line: healthy soil is healthy soil. I can get there every time, confidently. I know what's in my soil. I know it's healthy and natural, even if politically speaking it's not always "organic" in every state.

Salts are not evil....plants and animals make them. We use them to make the soil healthy, but we use them judiciously and in the small amounts that they are required. They are nothing to be afraid of, but should be embraced and used properly.

 

[ClosedCircuit]

If you PM me, I'll tell you exactly how to do that.

RE: inorganic salts

The term "organic" is a political term. Many natural substances---occuring in nature, all by themselves---are not listed OMRI. Others are, but only if a certain amount is used and no more! For example, Chilean Nitrate is as natural as you can get! It's dug out of the ground.....same as Azomite or rock dust.

But Chilean Nitrate is only "organic" is it comprises no more than 20% of a product. Once you get to 21% you are no longer organic, legally speaking.

All these salts you seem concerned over are also naturally occurring. When you look at a natural soil, out in the wilderness, some are red, some are brown, some are yellow.....depending on what salts are found in the soil!

When a goat urinates on soil, ammonia and urea, along with creatine, creatine, allantoin, phosphates and sulfates are all put into the soil. These are salts.....and nothing could be more natural! A good friend of mine fertilizes his entire vinyard by letting goats and sheep trim the grass in-between rows of grapes.

There is absolutely no difference between letting a goat urinate on the soil, or adding simple, naturally occuring salts obtained elsewhere. The only question we must ask is if the soil needs those salts!

So if the ammonium sulfate comes out of a goat, you're organic. But if it comes out of a bag or bottle you're not. That's total BS!!!
Gypsum=Calcium sulfate....a salt. Soft Rock Phosphate=Calcium phosphate and a bunch of other salts. Epsom Salt=magnesium sulfate...another salt.

These salts aren't evil, neither are they bad for the soil! In fact, in properly living soil---like the soil you use, Sue and CC----your biota are making these salts 24/7. Your plants move nutrients through the tissues via phosphorus.....phosphates! That's right, your plants are making salts! Sugars too.

Organic matter breaks down via microbial action to produce salts. Dirt contains salts. Salts are everywhere. They are natural and they are ESSENTIAL to proper plant health.

Having said that, excess salts---like excess organic fertilizer which creates excess salts organically---are detrimental to the soil. So we find that it's best to let most salts be formed by microbes, directed by root exudates in the plant. That's how plants should work....the leaves create exudates, which go to the roots, which feed the soil, which then feeds the plant what it asks for.

But it's also important to for the soil to have things in balance, especially minerals and ions. The naturally occuring salts in my amendments are CATIONS mostly......ammoniacal forms of nitrogen. This is to balance out the anionic forms of energy...nitrates.

Sometimes we want Cationic soil....so we add ammoniacal nitrogen and other cations. This stimulates reproductive growth. Other times, we want anionic soil....calcium nitrate, potassium nitrate, chilean nitrate......and this stimulates growth.

The bottom line is that everything I put into my soil is there for a reason....to make the soil healthy and alive so that plants grow well. This means that I might have to add iron in the form of a salt, or zinc, or boron.

Many soils do not have what they need, so we add things, including natural, safe, salts. There is NOTHING detrimental about this. In fact, it is essential for plant health.

Bottom line: healthy soil is healthy soil. I can get there every time, confidently. I know what's in my soil. I know it's healthy and natural, even if politically speaking it's not always "organic" in every state.

Salts are not evil....plants and animals make them. We use them to make the soil healthy, but we use them judiciously and in the small amounts that they are required. They are nothing to be afraid of, but should be embraced and used properly.

I'm not too worried about what contains the OMRI label. By now we have all seen a wave of foods and bottled nutes which leave alot to be desired. So that's not the issue. Most LSO growers are fine with not calling their grows organic, since it really comes down to a certification and not really any kind of purity or richness of a crop

I understand that these salts occur naturally, which is why I am asking the questions I am asking. I just want to get the full scope of them since LSO growers do not make efforts to add them directly to the soil but instead often wait for degrading organic matter to provide them for us...not always as you have illustrated with the addition of gypsum and such...but alot of the time. Two approaches to ascertaining the same minerals, really. Albeit, in different concentrations and with a little ignorance on our part. So, thank you for all your answers and providing me a thousand and one more questions to ponder. This is an amazing forum in that regard!

Anyways, all I was intending was to alleviate my ignorance. But I can see I have struck a nerve even with Graytail so I'll just look on silently for now. Best of luck to you all. I'm here in spirit!

Doc, I'll be pm-ing you about testing.

 

[scrubby]

I appreciate the passion but so much hyperbole without content.

Exactly. Im not claiming to be a know it all and my plants speak for themselves. Those type of people are here aplenty so there no need for another one! Im a straight to the point person. Its one way or the other in my book and the fact that Doc does all the work and it costs me $85 to reap the rewards is MORE than fine with me. If he finds a way to make it better than it is...FANTASTIC!!! Ill spend more money and STILL not care whats in it

 

[Major PITA]

(Doc Bud)​

 

[Graytail]

Anyways, all I was intending was to alleviate my ignorance. But I can see I have struck a nerve even with Graytail so I'll just look on silently for now. Best of luck to you all. I'm here in spirit!

Doc, I'll be pm-ing you about testing.

Sheesh, don't go silent. Just please do some followup before you fire off another question. Research a couple of the pioneer HBers like Dr Carey Reams, read through the High Brix Gardens site, etc. You've repeatedly been pointed in the right direction, now that you understand that the Australian HiBrix site has nothing to do with anything. What you learn will be directly related to your own method.

 

[SweetSue]

Well said DocBud, but - if the ammonium sulfate comes out of a goat it's organic. If it comes out of a box or a bottle and was synthetically created it's not organic. That's how my brain read that. There's no disputing that you've achieved a delicate balance, but would it be accepted as organic? The plants are indisputably beautiful and healthy. I need to spend more time reading the journal. You all seem convinced that you're maintaining healthy soil communities, and that speaks loud in this discussion. It's my desire not to interfere with that soil community that makes me cautious.

Let me spend some time reading and see the results for myself. I appreciate your patience with my questioning nature. I want to be able to recommend others to HB, even if I never make the shift myself.

 

[scrubby]

If you PM me, I'll tell you exactly how to do that.

RE: inorganic salts

The term "organic" is a political term. Many natural substances---occuring in nature, all by themselves---are not listed OMRI. Others are, but only if a certain amount is used and no more! For example, Chilean Nitrate is as natural as you can get! It's dug out of the ground.....same as Azomite or rock dust.

But Chilean Nitrate is only "organic" is it comprises no more than 20% of a product. Once you get to 21% you are no longer organic, legally speaking.

All these salts you seem concerned over are also naturally occurring. When you look at a natural soil, out in the wilderness, some are red, some are brown, some are yellow.....depending on what salts are found in the soil!

When a goat urinates on soil, ammonia and urea, along with creatine, creatinine, allantoin, phosphates and sulfates are all put into the soil, or soon form when the urine interacts with the soil. These are salts.....and nothing could be more natural! A good friend of mine fertilizes his entire vinyard by letting goats and sheep trim the grass in-between rows of grapes.

There is absolutely no difference between letting a goat urinate on the soil, or adding simple, naturally occuring salts obtained elsewhere. The only question we must ask is if the soil needs those salts!

So if the ammonium sulfate comes out of a goat, you're organic. But if it comes out of a bag or bottle you're not. That's total BS!!!
Gypsum=Calcium sulfate....a salt. Soft Rock Phosphate=Calcium phosphate and a bunch of other salts. Epsom Salt=magnesium sulfate...another salt.

These salts aren't evil, neither are they bad for the soil! In fact, in properly living soil---like the soil you use, Sue and CC----your biota are making these salts 24/7. Your plants move nutrients through the tissues via phosphorus.....phosphates! That's right, your plants are making salts! Sugars too.

Organic matter breaks down via microbial action to produce salts. Dirt contains salts. Salts are everywhere. They are natural and they are ESSENTIAL to proper plant health.

Having said that, excess salts---like excess organic fertilizer which creates excess salts organically---are detrimental to the soil. So we find that it's best to let most salts be formed by microbes, directed by root exudates in the plant. That's how plants should work....the leaves create exudates, which go to the roots, which feed the soil, which then feeds the plant what it asks for.

But it's also important to for the soil to have things in balance, especially minerals and ions. The naturally occuring salts in my amendments are CATIONS mostly......ammoniacal forms of nitrogen. This is to balance out the anionic forms of energy...nitrates.

Sometimes we want Cationic soil....so we add ammoniacal nitrogen and other cations. This stimulates reproductive growth. Other times, we want anionic soil....calcium nitrate, potassium nitrate, chilean nitrate......and this stimulates growth.

The bottom line is that everything I put into my soil is there for a reason....to make the soil healthy and alive so that plants grow well. This means that I might have to add iron in the form of a salt, or zinc, or boron.

Many soils do not have what they need, so we add things, including natural, safe, salts. There is NOTHING detrimental about this. In fact, it is essential for plant health.

Bottom line: healthy soil is healthy soil. I can get there every time, confidently. I know what's in my soil. I know it's healthy and natural, even if politically speaking it's not always "organic" in every state.

Salts are not evil....plants and animals make them. We use them to make the soil healthy, but we use them judiciously and in the small amounts that they are required. They are nothing to be afraid of, but should be embraced and used properly.

And that ^^^^^ is why I dont care whats in my soil or grows my high brix cannabis folks. Doc cares and thats more than fine by me!...hey at least im honest about it!

 

[Graytail]

LOL, that's probably really annoying to people. Most of us have no idea what's going on and why it works!!

We're a buncha bozos.

 

[DrZiggy]

The ocean is ...an ocean of salts
Made by A chemical reaction of a metal and a non metal..cant get any more natural than that..

 

[Governmentchz]

LOL, that's probably really annoying to people. Most of us have no idea what's going on and why it works!!

We're a buncha bozos.

It's got what plants crave...it's got electrolytes

 

[DrZiggy]

It's got what plants crave...it's got electrolytes

Sea water has too much sodium..its the main reason we cant drink it...'water water everywhere..'- ryme of the ancient mariner
gypsum..absorbs sodium, but then too much of that leads to other issues.

 

[Doc Bud]

Well said DocBud, but - if the ammonium sulfate comes out of a goat it's organic. If it comes out of a box or a bottle and was synthetically created it's not organic. That's how my brain read that. There's no disputing that you've achieved a delicate balance, but would it be accepted as organic? The plants are indisputably beautiful and healthy. I need to spend more time reading the journal. You all seem convinced that you're maintaining healthy soil communities, and that speaks loud in this discussion. It's my desire not to interfere with that soil community that makes me cautious.

Let me spend some time reading and see the results for myself. I appreciate your patience with my questioning nature. I want to be able to recommend others to HB, even if I never make the shift myself.

The soils best suited for annuals are glomus dominated.
The soils best suited for perennials, trees, and shrubs are fungal dominated....trichoderma, etc.

In other words, tilling the soil is an ancient, proven, tried and tested method to boost agriculture and create the backbone of civilization. Tilling the soil is disruptive to hyphae....but it actually helps glomus.

If you have a Christmas tree farm or a vinyard you don't want to disturb the soil much at all. But if you're growing a crop that finished in 14 weeks in small containers, there's nothing wrong with tilling.

BTW, I totally get the "Zen" of having a super-cool, natural method of growing and adopting and internalizing certain principles and practices. It's good for the soul!

There need not be any animosity at all! Zero!

 

[Doc Bud]

LOL, that's probably really annoying to people. Most of us have no idea what's going on and why it works!!

We're a buncha bozos.

There are chefs and chemists. All chefs do chemistry, but not all chemists are chefs!

I can tell you how polypeptide linkages are broken with heat and what happens when something carmalizes in a skillet on a molecular level....but if you want to have a great meal and you have a choice between a trained chef and a chemist to cook your meal....you go with the chef!

Why does it all work? Because that's how God/nature intended for it to work. It matters not if we claim to know why or are happy to remain ignorant. If it works, it works!

Do you suppose the plants "know" what is going on, or do they merely do what comes natural?

FWIW, I'd much rather eat produce grown from an old lady in Italy, growing in volcanic soil the way her grandmother did; who knows very little about chemistry and hasn't taken years of training in soil science, horticulture and crop science than produce grown by a graduate of a school backed by Monsanto and Bayer who advocates sterile soil and salt based ferts...based on his knowledge of crop science, etc.


And I'll gladly eat fresh paella on the beach in Malaga, cooked by a guy with an 8th grade education than a package of food created by scientists.

Chefs and growers don't need to know exactly everything that happens! They just need to know how to cook and grow great stuff.

"Science" is a political term anymore. Real science compliments nature, but what passes for science today is merely an activity to obtain grant money to do more "science" in the future.

There are exceptions to this....and the scientists who work at the lab are some rare people who have this balance figured out.

So, you're no bozo! You're a grower! Just because you don't know the chemical structure of the various humic acids doesn't mean the microbes in your soil can't produce them!

 

[SmokeyMcFly]

I am totally fine with being a bozo and not understanding whats really going on as long as it works due to all the research and time people that do understand have already done .

Not trying to Nock anyone that does want a better understanding just be realistic with your expectations if you're going about it on your own and making guesses instead everything being carefully calculated in a lab by PhDs to create the optimum soil mix

 

[Shawnee]

I'm with you, Smokey, if you can take all the guess work out of it, I'm free to do other things. Thanks Doc

 

[Doc Bud]

I am totally fine with being a bozo and not understanding whats really going on as long as it works due to all the research and time people that do understand have already done .

Not trying to Nock anyone that does want a better understanding just be realistic with your expectations if you're going about it on your own and making guesses instead everything being carefully calculated in a lab by PhDs to create the optimum soil mix

Exactly. You don't have to know how to build the car to drive it.

 

[Graytail]

I may have told a small lie - I was a chem major - I bet I could grasp it. ::

I jus' don't think it would make the plants healthier. I'm lazier now that I'm older.

But I still envy the people who bother to find out and can tell me in simple words.

 

[ClosedCircuit]

Sheesh, don't go silent. Just please do some followup before you fire off another question. Research a couple of the pioneer HBers like Dr Carey Reams, read through the High Brix Gardens site, etc. You've repeatedly been pointed in the right direction, now that you understand that the Australian HiBrix site has nothing to do with anything. What you learn will be directly related to your own method.

Ha where do you think each round of questions came from? The follow up, good sir.