Delps 8 Hydro RDWC Gelato Autoflower 2021

[Delps8]

Or...the plants are feeding on more cations than anions. Remember - the plant doesn’t have to release equal numbers of cations/anions in an attempt to keep the reservoir pH stable - all she cares about is ionic equilibrium within the roots. For every K+ she takes in - she must release a H+ back into the reservoir. If she takes in more K+ than NO3, for example, the pH is going to go down.

I thought that the law of electroequivalency required that the entire “system” (res + roots) be in balance in terms of the + and - charges. I have had very little exposure to the aspect of hydro so forgive my ignorance.

Re. the electrical stability - can you recommend resources where I can learn about this? As we’re seeing, it’s key - lacking expertise in this area, my approach was to lower pH. To the “electrically ignorant” that’s the means of solving the dropping pH issue. I’d like to have the knowledge to have a response that, frankly, not analogous to “Ah - ya want fries with that?”.

This seems like a good 24-hour volume for plants that size. How does it compare to previous uptake?

I haven’t been tracking that for this grow but it is inline with my GG grow from this summer. That grow was hotter + lower RH so uptake was a bit more.

 

[Rexer]

“Ah - ya want fries with that?”.

Don't forget to upsize and see our value menu items

Seriously though, I'm glad that FelipeBlu is able to answer many of your questions, most of what you two are discussing is above my head.

Thank you FelipeBlu for jumping in once again brother

 

[Delps8]

I think you are still too light on the dose if you diluted down to below 1.0 EC. Interveinal fading and tip/edge necrosis on older fan leaves indicates continuing deficiencies.
Excess will show up as sudden tip burn on newest leaves. If you aren’t seeing any damage to the youngest growth, I think you should increase the dose to at least 1.2 EC.

I’ve attached 3 images.

Jeff has damage on the leaf tips but I wouldn’t describe that as "the youngest growth". The leaves on Jeff that are damaged are on a stem somewhat down main stalk. Based on the size of the stem + leaves, that growth has to be a few weeks old. That part of the plant wasn’t impacted until very recently and the necrosis is on the tips of the leaves.

The new growth is a vibrant green color and I’m not "seeing any damage to the youngest growth”.

In the last photo, Winnie (on the left) and Mary are showing damage on “older fan leaves” but all their new growth is very green with no sign of damage.

Overall, the issues can be described as “older fan leaves [indicating] continuing deficiencies” which indicates that the EC is too low.

Does that check out with your analysis?

 

[FelipeBlu]

Indeed! The necrotic tips on Jeff are K def. New growth looks good!

 

[Delps8]

Don't forget to upsize and see our value menu items

“Always with the upsell. Can’t these kids just get a Happy Meal? What it is with youse guys and the upsell?”

Seriously though, I'm glad that FelipeBlu is able to answer many of your questions, most of what you two are discussing is above my head.

Don’t sell yourself short. What FelipeBlu is doing is at the heart of manicbotanix is about. Nute uptake results in creating a positive or negative charge in the the plant/res. Different nutes give off either negatively charged particles or positively charged particles. All of that has to end up with a net charge of nothing (the + and - cancel out). When there’s a negative charge, pH drops (I think).

"For every K+ she takes in - she must release a H+ back into the reservoir."
To keep things in balance.

"If she takes in more K+ than NO3, for example,
From that, it sounds like NO3 is negatively charged (because FB is uses a “+" so K I’m assuming that K is positive)

and

"the pH is going to go down.”
I’m inferring that’s because the res now has an extra negative ion in it.

FB is sharing the science behind the guideline "If pH drops, lower the res concentration". Assuming that the nutes are balanced, that’s a fair guideline but, as FelipeBlu has shown, Botanicare’s guidelines were quite off the mark.

In reality, now that I’ve left the training wheels of following the Kind feed sheet, I’m really concerned about going back to it. Yes, those nutes worked well for my GG grow and for a lot of other growers but there’s a yawning gap between what Botanicare was recommending and the mix that actually works. How would I know if their “flowering” recipe will work? Try it and see is an option but what’s the Plan B?

My experience with their recipe with this strain is that their recipe is horribly wrong - I started having this issue as soon as the plants went in the res. I didn’t see the symptoms for a few weeks, which is, apparently, standard for a CalMag issue but Botanicare failed right out of the gate. So, what’s in the weeks ahead?

I’ve got to rely on the kindness (and expertise) of strangers (no offense, of course, FB) and that’s a sucky way to farm. Guess I gotta put on my big boy pants and learn enough about the chemistry of nutes so that I can plot my own course without having to bug FB and show Botanicare the door.

Thank you FelipeBlu for jumping in once again brother

You get an Amen from me on that!

 

[Delps8]

Indeed! The necrotic tips on Jeff are K def. New growth looks good!

So bumping my EC will help resolve that?

@Rexer, you were right in the ballpark at 600 PPM. That advice was good - it’s the nutes that were out of whack.

 

[FelipeBlu]

I thought that the law of electroequivalency required that the entire “system” (res + roots) be in balance in terms of the + and - charges. I have had very little exposure to the aspect of hydro so forgive my ignorance.

You might have been thinking of osmotic pressure - a higher EC in the reservoir than in the roots will result in fluid being pulled out of the plant in an attempt to equalize the concentration - this sudden dehydration is what causes tip burn all over the plant - including the newest growth.

Re. the electrical stability - can you recommend resources where I can learn about this? As we’re seeing, it’s key - lacking expertise in this area, my approach was to lower pH. To the “electrically ignorant” that’s the means of solving the dropping pH issue. I’d like to have the knowledge to have a response that, frankly, not analogous to “Ah - ya want fries with that?”.

Ahh, I will look to see if I bookmarked or created pdfs of any relevant articles. If not, I would be searching for something like Plant Ionic balance

 

[FelipeBlu]

So bumping my EC will help resolve that?

Increasing overall nutrition at appropriate ratios will bring up K - that will resolve the def

 

[FelipeBlu]

“Always with the upsell. Can’t these kids just get a Happy Meal? What it is with youse guys and the upsell?”


Don’t sell yourself short. What FelipeBlu is doing is at the heart of manicbotanix is about. Nute uptake results in creating a positive or negative charge in the the plant/res. Different nutes give off either negatively charged particles or positively charged particles. All of that has to end up with a net charge of nothing (the + and - cancel out). When there’s a negative charge, pH drops (I think).

"For every K+ she takes in - she must release a H+ back into the reservoir."
To keep things in balance.

"If she takes in more K+ than NO3, for example,
From that, it sounds like NO3 is negatively charged (because FB is uses a “+" so K I’m assuming that K is positive)

Yes, NO3 (nitrate) is an anion with a charge of -1

and

"the pH is going to go down.”
I’m inferring that’s because the res now has an extra negative ion in it.

Because the reservoir now has more H+ than it did before

FB is sharing the science behind the guideline "If pH drops, lower the res concentration"

Hmmm - that isn’t quite what I’m saying. If the pH drops, it means that the plants are taking in more cations than anions. When you top up to return to the original volume, the concentration is lower because the plants ate the nutrients.

. Assuming that the nutes are balanced, that’s a fair guideline but, as FelipeBlu has shown, Botanicare’s guidelines were quite off the mark.

In reality, now that I’ve left the training wheels of following the Kind feed sheet, I’m really concerned about going back to it. Yes, those nutes worked well for my GG grow and for a lot of other growers but there’s a yawning gap between what Botanicare was recommending and the mix that actually works. How would I know if their “flowering” recipe will work? Try it and see is an option but what’s the Plan B?

My experience with their recipe with this strain is that their recipe is horribly wrong - I started having this issue as soon as the plants went in the res. I didn’t see the symptoms for a few weeks, which is, apparently, standard for a CalMag issue but Botanicare failed right out of the gate. So, what’s in the weeks ahead?

I’ve got to rely on the kindness (and expertise) of strangers (no offense, of course, FB) and that’s a sucky way to farm. Guess I gotta put on my big boy pants and learn enough about the chemistry of nutes so that I can plot my own course without having to bug FB and show Botanicare the door.

Just keep looking for information (especially from academic papers) and learn as much as you can from growing and other growers. For me, I put together a spreadsheet so I could analyze the nutrient profiles of other successful growers. This has led to a general understanding of what cannabis seems to need during the various life stages.

Basically, I now increase the level of N from about 50 ppm (early veg) to ~150 (through flowering). Since I keep K about 150% of N, it goes from 75 ppm to about 225. Cannabis doesn’t seem to really need much P - a max of about 50-60 ppm appears adequate. I try to keep Ca at about 1/2 K, and Mg about 1/2 Ca. Sulfur is good for aroma/flavor so I try to keep it up to at least 40-50ppm. Add adequate levels of the micros, and that’s it. This has worked well for many strains. Some may require more N and K during flowering - some are real prima donnas and are just too sensitive.

If indoors, try to keep the VPD slightly on the higher side (warmer and drier) - this will help facilitate adequate Ca uptake. If outdoors, try to provide some light shade during the hottest part of the day.

 

[cjsbabygirl313]

@FelipeBlu - I think I’m going to be picking your brains once my grow finally decides to start, well, GROWING

 

[FelipeBlu]

@FelipeBlu - I think I’m going to be picking your brains once my grow finally decides to start, well, GROWING

Certainly - I will be happy to help!

To start, can you post photos in your journal of the labels for the following?

• Mr. Mucha Stache cal/mag
• Botanicare CNS17 Grow
• Botanicare CNS17 Ripe
• Botanicare Hydroguard
• +Life

For liquids, please provide net weight and volume (the density is important)

 

[cjsbabygirl313]

Certainly - I will be happy to help!

To start, can you post photos in your journal of the labels for the following?

• Mr. Mucha Stache cal/mag
• Botanicare CNS17 Grow
• Botanicare CNS17 Ripe
• Botanicare Hydroguard
• +Life

For liquids, please provide net weight and volume (the density is important)

Oh friend, I’m not there yet - waiting on new seeds and new lights. My current seeds are REFUSING to pop/sprout. But when the time comes I will!

 

[Delps8]

Overall, very good news. Swapped the res and ended up with an EC that ranged between 1.22 and 1.3, sometimes as quickly as in 10 seconds. About 90 minutes later, pH fell from 5.9 to 5.7.

At 1645, added 2 gallons RO. EC 1.13 to 1.22 and pH at 5.7

At 1014, EC unchanged, pH dropped to 5.6, water consumption 0.4 gallons.

OTOH, the Ca Mg deficiency does not appear to be resolved or there’s evidence of nute burn. Per the pictures, there’s some new inter veinal lightening and leaf tip necrosis. All three plants are impacted however only Jeff has been significantly impacted. Very few areas in Mary and Winnie are affected.

Given the drop in pH, I’m inclined to drop the EC a bit and see if that gets the pH stable. Thoughts?

 

[FelipeBlu]

Okay - in the last photo I am seeing some tipping on youngest growth. Sheesh - sensitive! Can’t handle 600ppm?! It looks like you have a prima donna on your hands - best to back off.

 

[Delps8]

Okay - in the last photo I am seeing some tipping on youngest growth. Sheesh - sensitive! Can’t handle 600ppm?! It looks like you have a prima donna on your hands - best to back off.

Heh, this is Orange County after all!

Yeh, Jeff’s looking pretty beat up.

I’ve swapped out 2 gallons and added 1 gallon RO. The current range is 550-570 so that’s about a 0.1 EC drop. Does that sound about right? If I add the other gallon, I’ll get to ≈ 530.

 

[FelipeBlu]

You’re in trial and error territory with her!

 

[Delps8]

You’re in trial and error territory with her!

Great emoji!

“trial and error” - agreed. pH was 5.8 at 1135 and it’s now 5.7. Fun and games.

I’ll drop in the other gallon. Better too weak than too strong.

 

[Delps8]

I've been through a multiple rounds of "pump out 2 gallons of nutes and refill with RO" to try to stop pH from dropping. I've been through the PPM's shown below and, just a few minutes, ago pH dropped from 5.8 to 5.7.

625, 595, 560, 525, 530, 480, 475

The higher concentrations caused some nute burn so that was one reason to drop the EC. I hope that't behind me but I've still got to deal with the fact that pH is dropping.

I added Z7 to the res a few hours ago.

I have pulled the trigger on dropping nutes without waiting for pH to drop multiple units but my thinking is that it's better to drop the nute level than cause additional damage to the plants.

I've started up the dehumidifier and the RH in the tent is easier to manage. VPD is 1.0± with the tent temp at 80 and RH in the low 60's. DLI is 38 mols.

 

[Delps8]

A picture is worth a few dozen words.

Level = water level. I’ve got a graduated steel rule in a 4” cork bottle stopper. I float it on the water surface through a hole in the top of the res and take the reading. The reading is in mm = 9 mm to the gallon so the plants took up 1 gallon over night.
pH = gave up typing “.” a long time ago.
DLI - average of 6 readings, 3 per plant. Not taking readings on Jeff because his canopy is so irregular that it skews the calculations re. average and ST DEV. Schedule is 18/6.
WC = the “Wonder Chart”. I enter an abbreviation for water, EC, and pH. In this case, it’s falling water, static EC, and falling pH.
The text in bold indicates that I took some action. That makes it easier to read through the 1100+ lines of text and differentiate between actions and observations.

Re. the plants - I added Up to get the pH to 5.9 at 2300 yesterday and I also added Z7. The fact that pH fell from 5.9 to 5.6 in 8 hours is not encouraging. Given that I have been fortunate enough to get help from @FelipBlue, I think the Ca + Mg problem will turn out to have been resolved.

On the other hand, I’m stumped re. pH continuing to drop. Any idea on that, anyone?

 

[FelipeBlu]

Probably much more K, Ca, and Mg munching going on than nitrate, phosphate, and sulfate nibbling.