Delps 8 Hydro RDWC Gelato Autoflower 2021

1 tbsp per gallon for foliar spray. Shut off the light and sprayed the foliage “paying special attention to the undersides”. Started running two fans, plus the inline fan, and will leave lights off until everything dries. It's all of 47% RH in the garage (hot day here in SoCal) so things should dry out pretty quickly.

I took this step because I saw that some of the leaves on one of the plants were starting to lighten. I didn’t want to add CalMag because the primary issue is chlorosis and I’m concerned that more CalMag could lead to excess calcium.

I’ve attached a screenshot that describes the issue. Some of the leaves have exhibited dark spots, which could be a Ca deficiency, but the new damage is “inter veinal yellowing”.

Capto2021-10-28_04-35-37_PM.png


Still seeing pH up 0.1 and TDS at 315.
 
The saga continues.
I’ve swapped the res and the TDS is 145/500. The CM deficiency is significantly diminished but I’ll need to calculate the amount of CM that’s in the res. It’s not just a question of how much I’ve added but there’s also the fact that I’ve had to swap out large amounts of nutes for RO to try to get the TDS level low enough to stop pH from falling.

The res was at 170 but, out of desperation, I added 16ml CM which took the TDS to 200. pH fell from 6.0 to 5.3 overnight so I had to add Up and I ended up swapping out 11 gallons of nutes to get the TDS to 140. That 140/500 is actually 115/500 because the Bluelab monitor reads high by 25 points.

At the moment, the res is sitting at 145 and pH dropped from 5.9 at 1930 yesterday to 5.5 at 0930 today. That’s the slowest drop I’ve seen in at least a week.

What I’ve seen is that not that TDS is ½ the strength that they had as seedlings, pH drop has slowed significantly. I can continue to drop TDS but I’m going to be at the 100 range soon, a level that I suspect is too low to support the plants. I can’t imagine that this is “normal” - a plant can’t be moving to flower and need ½ the nutrients that it was using as a seedling so I’ve got to look at the cause for dropping pH. I suspect that it’s a bio agent of some kind in the res.

I don’t have root rot. I removed one of the plants yesterday - they’re still growing and I’ve decided to keep the two bigger plants plus Jeff, which was the smallest plant and is tucked away in the back right corner. During that process, I took each plant out of the res and inspected the net pot and the roots. Nothing out of whack there. The roots are not slimy and they smell like "clean dirt”. The Rapid Rooter is moist and free of visible algae. The Hyrdoton is moist and free of visible algae.

As best I can tell, that leaves me with one of three options - either I’ve got plants that require tiny amounts of nutrients to grow and flourish or I have a bio agent that’s causing pH to drop or my nutes are very out of balance.

I don’t think it’s the nutes. Checking through my grow journal and photos, I’ve had this issue since the plants went into the res. I’ve done multiple nute changes, in terms of composition and strength and the pH hasn’t been steady for almost three of the five weeks that they’ve been in the res.

I don’t think I’ve got "perpetual motion” plants. I’m pretty certain that I have plants that need a lot of CM but I don’t think they can run on a high amount of CM and < 100 PPM of other nutes.

That leaves me with a bio agent. How do I go about getting rid of bacteria in a res + water pump?

I checked the water chiller yesterday - couldn’t see much of the “innards” but there was no odor and no coloration of the small area that was visible.

And thank you People’s Republic of California but Botanicare’s Kind nutes are no their way out in CA. I tried to order a fresh bottle of Grow and it’s not for sale here. I do have ½ gallon of Grow left so I’ve got more than enough if I manage to get this grow back on track but it leaves me with a couple of other bottles that are orphans. That’s unfortunate but it also has convinced me to stop using Botanicare nutes. I’m not keen on the fact that their feeding chart is different than what’s on the bottles - that’s sloppy. Another factor is their web site - it’s about the most useless web site I’ve seen in the 27 years that I’ve been using the web. That site does most things wrong and, when I can’t find information about the products that a company sells, it makes that product less interesting to me. After these nutes, I’ll switch to General Hydro’s Flora. I know that their products work and they have a website that’s functional, to boot.

So, that’s my Monday — how’s yours?
 
The saga continues.
I’ve swapped the res and the TDS is 145/500. The CM deficiency is significantly diminished but I’ll need to calculate the amount of CM that’s in the res. It’s not just a question of how much I’ve added but there’s also the fact that I’ve had to swap out large amounts of nutes for RO to try to get the TDS level low enough to stop pH from falling.

The res was at 170 but, out of desperation, I added 16ml CM which took the TDS to 200. pH fell from 6.0 to 5.3 overnight so I had to add Up and I ended up swapping out 11 gallons of nutes to get the TDS to 140. That 140/500 is actually 115/500 because the Bluelab monitor reads high by 25 points.

At the moment, the res is sitting at 145 and pH dropped from 5.9 at 1930 yesterday to 5.5 at 0930 today. That’s the slowest drop I’ve seen in at least a week.

What I’ve seen is that not that TDS is ½ the strength that they had as seedlings, pH drop has slowed significantly. I can continue to drop TDS but I’m going to be at the 100 range soon, a level that I suspect is too low to support the plants. I can’t imagine that this is “normal” - a plant can’t be moving to flower and need ½ the nutrients that it was using as a seedling so I’ve got to look at the cause for dropping pH. I suspect that it’s a bio agent of some kind in the res.

I don’t have root rot. I removed one of the plants yesterday - they’re still growing and I’ve decided to keep the two bigger plants plus Jeff, which was the smallest plant and is tucked away in the back right corner. During that process, I took each plant out of the res and inspected the net pot and the roots. Nothing out of whack there. The roots are not slimy and they smell like "clean dirt”. The Rapid Rooter is moist and free of visible algae. The Hyrdoton is moist and free of visible algae.

As best I can tell, that leaves me with one of three options - either I’ve got plants that require tiny amounts of nutrients to grow and flourish or I have a bio agent that’s causing pH to drop or my nutes are very out of balance.

I don’t think it’s the nutes. Checking through my grow journal and photos, I’ve had this issue since the plants went into the res. I’ve done multiple nute changes, in terms of composition and strength and the pH hasn’t been steady for almost three of the five weeks that they’ve been in the res.

I don’t think I’ve got "perpetual motion” plants. I’m pretty certain that I have plants that need a lot of CM but I don’t think they can run on a high amount of CM and < 100 PPM of other nutes.

That leaves me with a bio agent. How do I go about getting rid of bacteria in a res + water pump?

I checked the water chiller yesterday - couldn’t see much of the “innards” but there was no odor and no coloration of the small area that was visible.

And thank you People’s Republic of California but Botanicare’s Kind nutes are no their way out in CA. I tried to order a fresh bottle of Grow and it’s not for sale here. I do have ½ gallon of Grow left so I’ve got more than enough if I manage to get this grow back on track but it leaves me with a couple of other bottles that are orphans. That’s unfortunate but it also has convinced me to stop using Botanicare nutes. I’m not keen on the fact that their feeding chart is different than what’s on the bottles - that’s sloppy. Another factor is their web site - it’s about the most useless web site I’ve seen in the 27 years that I’ve been using the web. That site does most things wrong and, when I can’t find information about the products that a company sells, it makes that product less interesting to me. After these nutes, I’ll switch to General Hydro’s Flora. I know that their products work and they have a website that’s functional, to boot.

So, that’s my Monday — how’s yours?

Dude I have no idea what to say. No, what's happening is not normal.

Normally it's a quick fix with something like this (I.e. not mixing nutes properly or algea build up, etc).

To answer your question for removal of all bacteria:
H202 (diluted to 3%)
Or
Z7 (ask @West Hippie )

H202 ---> stop all beneficials being used, re apply every 3-4 days (dissipates quickly). Food grade is best, not pharmacy stuff (but can be used, it's just not recommended). Considered the nuclear option when running a reservoir with beneficials.
 
Rexer:

Good timing. I got my bottle of Z7 on Saturday. :) I didn’t realize that Z7 would whack everything. I had seen it recommended so I thought I’d give it a try.

Yes - H2O2 is the nuclear option but I don’t see any alternative. I see 12% mentioned along with food grade. Is that the right concentration?
 
Rexer:

Good timing. I got my bottle of Z7 on Saturday. :) I didn’t realize that Z7 would whack everything. I had seen it recommended so I thought I’d give it a try.

Yes - H2O2 is the nuclear option but I don’t see any alternative. I see 12% mentioned along with food grade. Is that the right concentration?
I'd give the Z7 a try for a few days before you nuke your herd.
I recently gave some help to someone who was asking similar questions for the h202.
Post in thread 'First time grow in DWC' First time grow in DWC

I'm not sure if that (h202) is the best route, but the above link should answer your questions on using it.
 
I'd give the Z7 a try for a few days before you nuke your herd.
I recently gave some help to someone who was asking similar questions for the h202.
Post in thread 'First time grow in DWC' First time grow in DWC

I'm not sure if that (h202) is the best route, but the above link should answer your questions on using it.
Rexer:

Will do with the Z7.

If the Z7 doesn’t work, what else would you suggest?
 
Rexer:

Will do with the Z7.

If the Z7 doesn’t work, what else would you suggest?

Kindly ask @FelipeBlu If he can help double check your npk numbers. He's got an incredible knack at being able to help members get dialed in in that aspect, he may also pick up on something overlooked...aside from the obvious being your current mixture is nowhere near the concentration (PPM) for the current maturity of your plants, as you said.

He will most likely tell you to dump your res, and hopefully can help you with what you need to be changing.
 
Kindly ask @FelipeBlu If he can help double check your npk numbers. He's got an incredible knack at being able to help members get dialed in in that aspect, he may also pick up on something overlooked...aside from the obvious being your current mixture is nowhere near the concentration (PPM) for the current maturity of your plants, as you said.

He will most likely tell you to dump your res, and hopefully can help you with what you need to be changing.
Thanks for the referral.

I was headed down that road last night - a cage match between anions and cations. I’ll ping @FelipeBlu

No problem with dumping the res - I’m getting quite used to it, unfortunately.
 
Yo Ho! I hear a faint bell somewhere..

What’s up, D?

OK, after scanning the last two pages - I have some questions

Are you using tap or RO - do you know what’s in your water?

What does 145/500 mean - 290ppm?

When you say that your tds and ppm went down - is the pH measurement made before or after you top up the reservoir?

What exactly are you using for nutrients now - GH Flora 3-part? Anything else?
 
Felipe - thank you for checking in.

Water is RO - consistently 0 PPM. Cistern is in the garage with a water temp of 74°. It’s lightproof and the portal cover it always covered. I do not have any anti bacterial agent in the cistern. The water is from the municipal water supply here in north Orange County, SoCal. I’ve read a water report but that was a few years back.

“145/500” = 145 PPM on the 500 scale or 0.29 EC. I was using EC 0.4 for seedlings and ran, IIRC, one res at 0.6 and then things started going sideways. Per my PM, looking back, it was apparent that the issue existed soon after the plants when in the res - I just didn’t spot it till things got bad. A couple of weeks ago, there was serious damage to a few plants when I was at 0.6 or 0.8 EC so I started backing down.

TDS is stable unless I’m adding CalMag or Down. TDS and pH are reported using a Bluelab monitor. In the past few days, with EC <= 0.4, pH has been dropping 0.1 units every 90 - 120 minutes. For the past 24 hours, PPM has been oscillating between 140 and 150 PPM. I refer to that as 145.

Nutrients are Kind Expert - I was using the mix recommended in the veg stage but, this weekend, switched to “transition week 1”. Feed sheets are attached.

My comment about GH was that I’ll probably go that route since Grow is no longer available for sale in CA.



Veg Week 2.png



Transition Week 1.png
 
Felipe - thank you for checking in.

Water is RO - consistently 0 PPM. Cistern is in the garage with a water temp of 74°. It’s lightproof and the portal cover it always covered. I do not have any anti bacterial agent in the cistern. The water is from the municipal water supply here in north Orange County, SoCal. I’ve read a water report but that was a few years back.
Excellent choice! Tap water in SoCal can be pretty high tds.
“145/500” = 145 PPM on the 500 scale or 0.29 EC. I was using EC 0.4 for seedlings and ran, IIRC, one res at 0.6 and then things started going sideways. Per my PM, looking back, it was apparent that the issue existed soon after the plants when in the res - I just didn’t spot it till things got bad. A couple of weeks ago, there was serious damage to a few plants when I was at 0.6 or 0.8 EC so I started backing down.
:oops: 145 ppm total tds? Poor babies are starving! At this point in the life of most Autos, they should be getting at least 100 -150 ppm of nitrogen alone! And 25 - 35ppm P, and 150 - 200 ppm K. I don’t understand how you could have had nute burn at 400 ppm tds - that just doesn’t make sense to me.
TDS is stable unless I’m adding CalMag or Down. TDS and pH are reported using a Bluelab monitor. In the past few days, with EC <= 0.4, pH has been dropping 0.1 units every 90 - 120 minutes. For the past 24 hours, PPM has been oscillating between 140 and 150 PPM. I refer to that as 145.
How much are they drinking in 24 hours? Do you know your VPD? If you are sure that you don’t have a bacterial infection, falling pH usually means that the plants are taking up more cations (mostly K) than anions (like nitrate). Cannabis seems to prefer K over anything else - hence the symptoms of Mg def. Raising the dose of all nutrients should address this.

Nutrients are Kind Expert - I was using the mix recommended in the veg stage but, this weekend, switched to “transition week 1”. Feed sheets are attached.

My comment about GH was that I’ll probably go that route since Grow is no longer available for sale in CA.



Veg Week 2.png



Transition Week 1.png
I don’t have this in my database. If you give me the NPK and CaMg percentages (plus the net wgt and vol of the liquids), I can take a look at the nutrient profile.
:surf:
 
“I don’t understand how you could have had nute burn at 400 ppm tds - that just doesn’t make sense to me."
Same here. I just wonder what they are eating — come to think of it, I haven’t seen the cat in a while…

Water consumption - haven’t measured. I’ve been swapping so much water into the res that I didn’t take the time to do that. I do know that, as of a few weeks ago, water consumption was a few mm over night which is about the same as my GG grow this summer. One of my assumptions is that they are taking up water.

VPD - per attachment. Lower than it should be. I’ve got to keep the tent buttoned up to keep the heat in so my RH is up even though the fan is running. VPD too low = slow nutrient uptake?

Capto2021-11-01_01-31-01_PM.png


Capto2021-11-01_01-29-58_PM.png


"Raising the dose of all nutrients should address this."
I’ve run the res at 390 and 400. Lots of damage, quickly.


I’ve also attached pictures from the back of the bottles.

Base.jpg


Bloom.jpg


Grow.jpg
 
Hey @Delps8 - that second chart that shows temp, RH, and VPD all together: is that an export from a hygrometer or something or is it your own spreadsheet?

LOVE it!!
 
I use a couple of different sensors - the Acurite weather station sensor, the Acurite hygrometer, the Inkbird temp and RH devices, and the Pulse. Temperature is pretty accurate but I’m pretty certain that's because it’s the most stable. RH is a coin toss. Between the little dehu running in the tent and the different reporting intervals, RH readings can be 10% different. The big issue is the trend and the Pulse does fine with that.

BTW, the Acurite hygrometer is well worth the $15±. It updates every second and is big enough that I can read it using the Wyze camera in the tent.
 
I use a couple of different sensors - the Acurite weather station sensor, the Acurite hygrometer, the Inkbird temp and RH devices, and the Pulse. Temperature is pretty accurate but I’m pretty certain that's because it’s the most stable. RH is a coin toss. Between the little dehu running in the tent and the different reporting intervals, RH readings can be 10% different. The big issue is the trend and the Pulse does fine with that.

BTW, the Acurite hygrometer is well worth the $15±. It updates every second and is big enough that I can read it using the Wyze camera in the tent.
Im actually using the Govee monitor and it tracks temp and humidity, just not VPD. Still, having temp and RH, I should be able to determine VPD and plot that on a spreadsheet.
 
Okay - the above mix labeled Veg week 2 provided:

153 ppm N (probably a bit high)
25 ppm P (ok)
97ppm K (definitely low compared to N, but not really too low for veg)
133 ppm Ca (maybe a bit high - definitely too high compared to K)
66 ppm Mg (same comment as Ca)
57 ppm S
Fe at 5.4 ppm is getting a bit high
No (as in none listed) B, Mn, Zn, Mo, Cu

I didn’t bother with Rhizo blast, Tea, etc - they are just going towards raising the tds

The Transition mix provides:

176 ppm N
60 ppm P
150 ppm K (too low for N level)
187 ppm Ca (too high)
64 ppm Mg
34 ppm S
5.6 ppm Fe
Still no micros
 
Im actually using the Govee monitor and it tracks temp and humidity, just not VPD. Still, having temp and RH, I should be able to determine VPD and plot that on a spreadsheet.
Yup, it’s not a big leap to get to VPD. The Pulse is handy but I found that I get a decent feel for VPD just knowing the RD and temp. I remind myself pretty frequently that I’m trying to grow a plant, not vector in the space shuttle.
 
I would try something like (per gallon):
5 ml Silica
8 ml Base
10 ml Grow
5 ml Bloom

This provides:

148 ppm N
63 ppm P
173 ppm K
114 ppm Ca
61 ppm Mg

And try to increase the VPD (warmer and drier) - that will help with Ca uptake.
 
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