Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

Bucudinkydow, you got me thinking my wife will make energy balls here and there .. basically peanut-butter, oats ,chocolate chips,black cumin seeds and nuts. Roll into balls and stick in the fridge to make em firm .. I wonder if we soaked the oats in the infused oil mixed it all up with the above ingredients if the goodies become more bioavailable ???


When I have some time I'm gonna give it a go ... if someone else try's before me please share ..


Bucudinkydow said:
Added to extraction efficiency and bio-availability you can also add the inconsistency of assimilation from one individual to another to further complicate a good synopsis. A common factor to deal with is the fact stomach acid is detrimental to cannabinods. But armed with this info, I'm still not sure if it's better to accompany oral medication with other food to dilute the damage or take it by itself to get through the stomach as quickly as possible. Metabolization actually begins in the duodenum in the presence of bile. Yet another inconsistency as determined by liver health or if your still in possession of your gall bladder. I, with my cholecystectomy, find slightly better results taking my night time tincture with a small amount of a good fat. Peanut butter being my fave. I'm like the rest, many questions with not many answers. Enjoying kicking things around, though.
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Kicknitup1 said:
Something to think about on our journey... We are always concerned about loss no matter what kind. We lose THC when we extract no matter how we do it. We now know terpenes are tough to retain. We strive to find ways to help our body process the cannabinoids better; less we ultimately lose what we worked so hard to preserve. Which brings me to an important quandary- efficiency of ingestion methods. This has been talked about directly and indirectly via recipes all over the place. I do not have the answers, but lately i certainly have raised some questions. The problem with answering the questions is the same as with the extractions- you must test. Well, testing at the consumption point is tougher yet. Of course, we must first test what we consume. After that, we just have to do multiple trys at a certain method to reach a consensus about this or that. In that vein, here's what I did.

I decarbed a g of bud. Ended up at .9g. Took the .9g and ground it up. Shoved it into capsules. Then heated coconut oil and dissolved LSL into it. Then poured the oil mixture into each capsule making a wet mixture in each. Let set 15 min.

SO: The premise is-
1. Decarbed bud is ready to get you medicated.
2. The coconut oil in the solution should help in bio availability.
3. The LSL should help in bio availability. (not encapsulated)

At 12% THC (a guess), there should have been 120mg in there. After decarb = 105mg. So we should have apx 105mg. Test time. My favorite part. Come to think of it, the test dummy expression is getting more common. The unscientific result, after 2 tests on 2 different uhhh test dummies, The consensus is that it felt like 50-60mg. More loss????

Here's the thing. No, we cannot let up on extraction efficiency. But next is bio availability. Now, it would seem that I set up a pretty decent environment in those caps. But the reality is that it didn't perform up to it's potential. Furthermore, I have found that just shooting encapsulated oil down the hatch is about the same; or in the cap for that matter. Without fail, I get a bigger bang out of incorporating the oil into food. I feel strongly that for some reason it is more available to the body if incorporated into a more complex food. That is a mystery. Thoughts?
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What you did was gather the building materials, toss them into a pile, and expect them to be a house. It doesn't work that way. :battingeyelashes:

The process you used didn't infuse the oil, so the cannabinoids are on their own. Not giving the lecithin and the time necessary to encapsulate does nothing more than add lecithin to your system, not a bad thing, but not what your goal was.

It didn't surprise me that you had a lessened effect. It also doesn't surprise me that you get more effect with a properly infused oil in edibles, or simply using decarbed bud in edibles, because in that latter case the cannabinoids would naturally bond to the available oil in the recipe. This is why the peanut butter works so well, although I've suspected for a while now that there's something special about the combination of peanut butter and cannabis.

Edibles work so well for euphoria due to the metabolism of delta 9-THC to 11-hydroxy THC, but you have the caveat that effect will only be as strong as your gut's ability to absorb. Capsules of CCO on their own are very poorly absorbed. Infuse the cannabinoids to a good carrier oil and add LSL and you push the bioavailability numbers much higher.

You follow the process, you get the results you seek. Infuse. Encapsulate. Dose.
 
HealthFreak said:
Bucudinkydow, you got me thinking my wife will make energy balls here and there .. basically peanut-butter, oats ,chocolate chips,black cumin seeds and nuts. Roll into balls and stick in the fridge to make em firm .. I wonder if we soaked the oats in the infused oil mixed it all up with the above ingredients if the goodies become more bioavailable ???


When I have some time I'm gonna give it a go ... if someone else try's before me please share ..
Click to expand...

I occasionally do a coconut oil transfer from my ethanol extractions for edibles. I do something similar. I'm an advocate of using as little heat as possible at any stage and actually use a more simplistic recipe successfully; half cup of creamy peanut butter, one cup shredded coconut, two tablespoons honey, one teaspoon vanilla extract and two ounces of infused coconut oil. Spread onto a cookie sheet, into the freezer for a few minutes and cut into applicable portion sizes. I'm sure your wife's recipe would work well with the addition of infused oil, as well. I find that the edibles give me longer lasting results for my insomnia during the night but, unfortunately, I'm not at all sure how this extended effect relates to bio-availability. Would be anxious to hear of the results of a comparison test; looking for efficacy difference in the medicated recipe as compared to ingesting a comparable amount of infused oil by itself. Inquiring minds want to know!
 
SweetSue said:
What you did was gather the building materials, toss them into a pile, and expect them to be a house. It doesn't work that way. :battingeyelashes:

The process you used didn't infuse the oil, so the cannabinoids are on their own. Not giving the lecithin and the time necessary to encapsulate does nothing more than add lecithin to your system, not a bad thing, but not what your goal was.

It didn't surprise me that you had a lessened effect. It also doesn't surprise me that you get more effect with a properly infused oil in edibles, or simply using decarbed bud in edibles, because in that latter case the cannabinoids would naturally bond to the available oil in the recipe. This is why the peanut butter works so well, although I've suspected for a while now that there's something special about the combination of peanut butter and cannabis.

Edibles work so well for euphoria due to the metabolism of delta 9-THC to 11-hydroxy THC, but you have the caveat that effect will only be as strong as your gut's ability to absorb. Capsules of CCO on their own are very poorly absorbed. Infuse the cannabinoids to a good carrier oil and add LSL and you push the bioavailability numbers much higher.

You follow the process, you get the results you seek. Infuse. Encapsulate. Dose.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt that the encapsulation route is superior. But before I heard of encapsulation, I heard that Lecithin helped with the absorption simply by adding it to the recipe. And the older videos & tutorials just added it to the mix. And, supposedly, coconut oil helps with bio-avalibility. And, you are supposed to be able to get a buzz by eating decarbed weed. I was just taking all these elements and showing that there is more to it than that. Yes, you can get a buzz off eating a gram- but what a waste. And the other stuff, well if it helped with absorption, I would hate to know what the bud alone would have done. Basically I did old school with the addition of oil & lecithin (oh yeah, and a real decarb). I expected it to be diminished...but not by half. I have known for a long time that sprinkling weed in brownie mix is basically a nostalgic waste of weed. Now we know that even with all the ingredients it still must be done correctly or you are still wasting half!

But what about properly encapsulated oil in a capsule??? now that surprised me. Actually, I was surprised by the other mixture or I wouldn't have done it. LOL.
 
Kicknitup1 said:
I have no doubt that the encapsulation route is superior. But before I heard of encapsulation, I heard that Lecithin helped with the absorption simply by adding it to the recipe. And the older videos & tutorials just added it to the mix. And, supposedly, coconut oil helps with bio-avalibility. And, you are supposed to be able to get a buzz by eating decarbed weed. I was just taking all these elements and showing that there is more to it than that. Yes, you can get a buzz off eating a gram- but what a waste. And the other stuff, well if it helped with absorption, I would hate to know what the bud alone would have done. Basically I did old school with the addition of oil & lecithin (oh yeah, and a real decarb). I expected it to be diminished...but not by half. I have known for a long time that sprinkling weed in brownie mix is basically a nostalgic waste of weed. Now we know that even with all the ingredients it still must be done correctly or you are still wasting half!

But what about properly encapsulated oil in a capsule??? now that surprised me. Actually, I was surprised by the other mixture or I wouldn't have done it. LOL.
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This is why I changed my brownie recipe to a properly infused oil with LSL. I can't explain it, but they begin onset within ten minutes with that step. I want full benefit out of my harvests. This hobby is simple, but not easy. Takes a lot of resources to get to a decent harvest, and it's too easy to have life get in the way and you lose all or part of the anticipated crop.

The experimental attitude of the membership fires me up. :laughtwo: So Kickin', what was your biggest take away from your experience with Canyon? What changes, if any, are you personally making to your oil production practices as a result of this adventure?
 
HealthFreak said:
Bucudinkydow, you got me thinking my wife will make energy balls here and there .. basically peanut-butter, oats ,chocolate chips,black cumin seeds and nuts. Roll into balls and stick in the fridge to make em firm .. I wonder if we soaked the oats in the infused oil mixed it all up with the above ingredients if the goodies become more bioavailable ???


When I have some time I'm gonna give it a go ... if someone else try's before me please share ..
Click to expand...

I'd think soaking the oats in the infused oil'd make it easier to incorporate the oil into the recipe. Nice idea. :high-five:
 
WOW, almost 48 hours without a new post! I hope our thread isn't going dormant. Surely we have more to learn about terpene retention! Maybe this would be a good time to post an update on my new decarb/ extraction process.

To bring everyone up to speed, I decarbed my blue dream in a sealed mason jar and after a short cool down placed it in the freezer for 24 hours without opening it until I actually added the ethanol for a rather conventional cold ethanol extraction.

My theory is, in a sealed jar the volatile terpenes weren't allowed to dissipate during the heat process and would most assuredly be totally condensed after the lengthy period in the freezer prior to cracking the container open.

My first observation was the totally foreign odor when I finally opened the jar to add the ethanol. Smelled much more like a stale fart than the cooked cannabis aroma I'm accustomed to. After the extraction, I found the tincture was a bright orange color rather than the typical green or golden color. Another fellow experimenter on another forum described the color between orange and red.

On to the effects. I have some tincture made from the same material using a conventional open decarb and cold ethanol extraction method. I've been alternating the two for the last few days for comparison purposes. I can emphatically aver there is a distinct difference in the two. Varying the dose of the conventionally prepared golden dragon simply presents different stages of sedation. Increasing the dosage of the "orange dragon" is like taking another toke of good sativa. The effect is more closely akin to that of inhalation than any other orally ingested cannabis product I've tried. I'm totally stoked over the results with plans to make some improvements on my next trial.

First, my weed is almost a year old. It still has a fabulous aroma when I open the stash jar but I'm sure the static terpene content has suffered drastically. I'm anxious to try this with some freshly harvested product but I'm several months from having any available.

Secondly, my normal routine after extraction is to do a reduction by natural evaporation of the ethanol. Of course, with some of the terpenes being molecularly as volatile as the ethanol itself, I'm sure I lost some in the process. I'll have no problem avoiding this step next time and simply increase the dosage accordingly. I'm totally ecstatic with my results and even more excited over prospects of an improved product by refining my process a bit.

I remember earlier in this thread there was an invitation for participation by individuals that could offer evidence of their processes by lab tests. I understand the importance of this as opposed to unsubstantiated anecdotal testimony and I vacillated over posting these results since the judicial prejudices of my beloved state preclude my access to cannabis labs. I don't wish to hinder the agenda of the hosts of this thread and beg indulgence. Perhaps it will spark someone's interest enough to give it a try or do some further investigation. If some one is interested in a more in depth explanation of the procedure I'll be happy to oblige.

Thanx
BCDD
 
Thanks BCDD -- Thanks for sharing that. ;)

Formatting note? If you could break up that giant text block into paragraphs, it would be a lot easier to read. White space bro!
 
I would love a simple breakdown of the process please ..

:thumb:

Bucudinkydow said:
WOW, almost 48 hours without a new post! I hope our thread isn't going dormant. Surely we have more to learn about terpene retention! Maybe this would be a good time to post an update on my new decarb/ extraction process.

To bring everyone up to speed, I decarbed my blue dream in a sealed mason jar and after a short cool down placed it in the freezer for 24 hours without opening it until I actually added the ethanol for a rather conventional cold ethanol extraction.

My theory is, in a sealed jar the volatile terpenes weren't allowed to dissipate during the heat process and would most assuredly be totally condensed after the lengthy period in the freezer prior to cracking the container open.

My first observation was the totally foreign odor when I finally opened the jar to add the ethanol. Smelled much more like a stale fart than the cooked cannabis aroma I'm accustomed to. After the extraction, I found the tincture was a bright orange color rather than the typical green or golden color. Another fellow experimenter on another forum described the color between orange and red.

On to the effects. I have some tincture made from the same material using a conventional open decarb and cold ethanol extraction method. I've been alternating the two for the last few days for comparison purposes. I can emphatically aver there is a distinct difference in the two. Varying the dose of the conventionally prepared golden dragon simply presents different stages of sedation. Increasing the dosage of the "orange dragon" is like taking another toke of good sativa. The effect is more closely akin to that of inhalation than any other orally ingested cannabis product I've tried. I'm totally stoked over the results with plans to make some improvements on my next trial.

First, my weed is almost a year old. It still has a fabulous aroma when I open the stash jar but I'm sure the static terpene content has suffered drastically. I'm anxious to try this with some freshly harvested product but I'm several months from having any available.

Secondly, my normal routine after extraction is to do a reduction by natural evaporation of the ethanol. Of course, with some of the terpenes being molecularly as volatile as the ethanol itself, I'm sure I lost some in the process. I'll have no problem avoiding this step next time and simply increase the dosage accordingly. I'm totally ecstatic with my results and even more excited over prospects of an improved product by refining my process a bit.

I remember earlier in this thread there was an invitation for participation by individuals that could offer evidence of their processes by lab tests. I understand the importance of this as opposed to unsubstantiated anecdotal testimony and I vacillated over posting these results since the judicial prejudices of my beloved state preclude my access to cannabis labs. I don't wish to hinder the agenda of the hosts of this thread and beg indulgence. Perhaps it will spark someone's interest enough to give it a try or do some further investigation. If some one is interested in a more in depth explanation of the procedure I'll be happy to oblige.

Thanx
BCDD
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Thanx for the interest, healthfreak. In the waiting room for some pretty heavy duty oral surgery right now; bridge removal, extractions and bone grafts, YUUUUKKK. Hopefully this afternoon I'll be recovered well enough to share the process.

BCDD
 
This showed up in the Making CCO thread, thanks to Baya. I'll start with a link to that conversation, since he had some pretty decent accompanying data, and it's often insightful to watch someone else work through the fine-tuning of meds and doses.

He shared a link to some testing done (apparently in 2016) by one Bob Wilcox of CAT Scientific that demonstrated the insignificant amount of THC conversion to CBN in the processing of the infused oils. That experiment can be found here.

In his words,

The Results of Reason | Decarboxylation Debunked

"At the conclusion of our experiment, we found the rate of cannabinoid conversion is so low it's barely noticeable. When this data is translated to real-world application, the THC-CBN conversion isn't high enough to alter the effects of a cannabis extract. Therefore, we're confident when using CAT Scientific products to decarboxylate your cannabis solutions, the fear of altering the psychoactive components of your products is null and void."
 
Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

I've been reading along in the background for a while ...
So this may be way off, but I'm thinking that maybe the effectiveness when adding the oil to food as opposed to capsule, is a little bit to do with time spent in the mouth - so absorption begins there and directly into the blood. Same reason why if you're taking straight oil you want to swish it around heaps before you swallow it. As others have noted, so much absorption after swallowing depends on the body's digestive capacity and all sorts of things can be amiss there. Plus different molecules attach to different pathways - which probably has something to o with why good fats (and specifically peanut butter it seems) work differently.

With our 36hr infused oil (EVO), we're trying not to swallow it at all. I'm using my left over elixinol jars that have an awesome dropper designed for thick oil and it has marks for .25, .5 & 1ml. We take it from the dropper and coat the insides of the mouth with the oil and just let it absorb. Helps that we love the flavour!

Anyway, I'm sure that it's a combination of things, but I just thought time spent in the mouth might have a bit to do with effectiveness of edibles.

.
 
How is the sublingual and buccal absorption working for you with the oil? I've had decent results with tincture (if you can bare the burn) but never tried oil.
 
Bucudinkydow said:
Thanx for the interest, healthfreak. In the waiting room for some pretty heavy duty oral surgery right now; bridge removal, extractions and bone grafts, YUUUUKKK. Hopefully this afternoon I'll be recovered well enough to share the process.

BCDD
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Man, that sucked!!! Sorry for the delay. Had some unexpected complications but beginning to revive a bit now. Will get up a post on the procedure shortly.
 
Bucudinkydow said:
How is the sublingual and buccal absorption working for you with the oil? I've had decent results with tincture (if you can bare the burn) but never tried oil.
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Well it's a pretty weak oil as I only had about 2-3g of bud to try it with. So I used only half a cup of EVO. 1ml of the oil doesn't get me high, but definitely relaxed and smiley with a gentle sense of wellbeing. Can't pass that up, right. The says it's working for pain relief (post surgery - slowly eliminating the Oxy) at half that dose (is not a usual cannabis user - doesn't want to be high). It really works for helping us sleep too. I got 8 hours straight for the first time in about 3 years recently (not counting the rare occasions that some temazepam passed my lips).

So it's definitely effective, and more so if we keep it sublingual and buccal or maybe it's just quicker... Certainly feels stronger. I'm doing another batch soon - unfortunately I don't know what this bud is. The first batch was given to me, looked maybe a bit immature (tiny, loose buds, but nice), and was reportedly NL - which might be true as it's a little sedating. Next batch is some I'm buying (so looking forward to putting that practice behind me!) and I don't think I can find out what the genetics are there either. So I can't give any specifics about content.

I have a problem with alcohol intolerance so tinctures can be an issue (allergic reaction, swelling in the throat etc.). Still I'm going to a workshop later this year with a great local herbalist who will teach the making of tinctures so I plan to learn it as others around me me benefit (will just need to find a guinea pig!).

.
 
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