Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[OldMedUser]

Of all the various methods I like mine the best.

Using well cured then air dried pot I pass it through a 1mm mesh screen. Same as mosquito screen for your windows. Then I cook it up with coconut oil in a crock pot hooked up to a Variac so I can raise the heat higher than the crock pot is designed for. Once it hits 235F it starts to bubble as it decarbs and I let the heat get to 260F by which time the bubbling is done indicating the decarb is done too.

Then I cool it down to about 212F and add 10% liquid sunflower lecithin and simmer for a few more hours.

Then I run it thru a fine metal strainer into a mason jar and keep it warm for 24 hours or so as the fine particles settle out. Decant into a clean jar to leave the sediment behind and refrigerate for a day, thaw out, and cool again.

This last batch I used 30g of bud to 300g of oils and got a full 250ml mason jar of cocobudder. One tsp and I'm on my ass!

The dregs don't go to waste but get added to baked goods so I don't bother with fancy pressings or washing with boiling water. Too messy for too little extra. The leftover goes good in smoothies too. I have a few hockey pucks worth in the freezer and bust off chunks for smoothies.

Easy-peasy and decarbing in the oil captures the vast majority of cannabinoids and terpenes I'm sure, tho many terpenes are likely lost during the dry/cure process.

To avoid that then the Fresh Harvest Infused Cannabis Oil thread is where you want to go. I'm doing a batch of that soon with saved sugar trim from my last grow stored fresh in sealed containers in the deep freeze.

 

[Canyon]

I cannot fault anyone for the frustration.

I have the makings of an excel work book that I need to complete adding some data and wright some formulas to help keep the math down.

I put most of it on a thumb drive to work on in Alb. and did not get to it.

Not being able to upload the files in a straight forward way had me trying to post parts of charts. Hell, I have been confused over that.

I quit my day job 20 years ago and I can't believe how busy my life is. It is going to take me a day or two to get it together. I will send the file to whoever wants it when I have it cleaned up some.

InTheShed
"- best methods of decarb (method/times/temps) without having to buy a Nova or similar device
- best methods of extraction (method/times/temps) without having to buy a Magic Butter machine or similar device"

I don't think we have answered any of these questions. We did find out that the FHO run was not decarbed after eight hours of low temp heat.We also abandoned an oven decarb because my oven temperature fluctuated too much.

As far as extraction, there is an improvement in extraction by going to 4 hours from 2 hours. Kickn wanted to do a 36 hour test but we did not have time to complete that test.

Scientific
"Even if you do follow every day, so much info seems to come in in different formats and punctuated by the usual chatter that it's hard to assemble any kind of coherent synthesis. And I sometimes get the feeling there's a back channel I'm not privy too? Private messages or stuff that got deleted as off-policy at some point or stuff people talk about in person or something? I'm probably wrong about that, but I often just lose the thread and have kinda given up, hoping someone will do some data reduction, analysis, and reporting."

It is all true. The majority of us have been following the same threads for a long time. We have gotten to know each other in a digital way.

The back channel talking in riddles and deleted messages is just a way of keeping the sight out of liability issues. Without going into details, some of the cost of tests have been shared.

"If this was going on at work, I would definitely have called for a meeting for everyone to get together to share results in person and discuss (and for coffee, donuts, and catered lunch, of course--and maybe a social hour at the brew pub afterwards?) "

How about a retreat in Las Vegas in the dead of winter?
[;>)

I never know

 

[Derbybud]

Canyon,
You and kickn did a great job and have put in more time than most people would have. We're just saying that even if you did get everything in a spread sheet most on lookers here got more out of your post above than anything else that we have been able to decipher. We are glad that you took this on and hopefully we can continue to do tests in the future we just should maybe take a little time up front and have more of a game plan before we jump in to it
Thanks for all you do
Derbybud

 

[Derbybud]

Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

Oh and now that Vegas has a hockey team count me in on our retreat. Hopefully when they are playing the Rangers

 

[Kicknitup1]

Ok. Im taking notes. So keep asking for clarification on the fuzzy parts. By the questions so far, I see there are indeed various experience levels represented. We shall see if we can cover some butter 101 right up front in Cliff Notes.

I know the way the info got released there was unnecessary confusion. The delays at the lab messed with the timetable. The last data was so long in coming I think we rushed getting it posted because we felt bad that people were waiting. It would have been easier to follow if released all together with explanation tying them together better. Anyway, I think we lost you along the way. This series of experiments tells a pretty good story all in all.

One thing I like, we got people in a testing mood. It's about time. The days of saying my stuff kicks ass and my decarb is the best without a lab test to back it up is in the rearview mirror. The government will not test for us and big pfarma doesn't play nice. That leaves the consumer. It's tougher without a lab and a big budget but it can be done.

I have already learned enough to discredit or find some misleading factoid in what has to be 90% of the articles, blogs, youtube how tos, etc out there. I mean, it's hard to find a long article that doesn't keep on going until it goes of the tracks. Scientific mentioned the crap Leafly puts up. They have part time writers who just want a writing job. They sit down with someone and pick up enough lingo and info to write a piece. Hell, they've smoked weed at the sorority, how tough can it be? Nobody takes this seriously,right??? It's a puff piece right? 60 Minutes it ain't. And, even here on 420, where there are some damn fine techniques to be had, is dotted with errors and misleading info.......and what's the gospel today will be revised into the "new" correct way next month.

Marijuana is the new computer age. Everything changes so fast. Why? because we now have access to labs. What was taken for granted for years can now be put to the test to sink or swim. And most will sink, just like those 1970 brownies everyone thought was so cool because some pot was sprinkled into the batter. I swear we probably got high off placebo.

 

[HealthFreak]

I'm game for Vegas !!! Or anywhere in the states

I cannot fault anyone for the frustration.

I have the makings of an excel work book that I need to complete adding some data and wright some formulas to help keep the math down.

I put most of it on a thumb drive to work on in Alb. and did not get to it.

Not being able to upload the files in a straight forward way had me trying to post parts of charts. Hell, I have been confused over that.

I quit my day job 20 years ago and I can't believe how busy my life is. It is going to take me a day or two to get it together. I will send the file to whoever wants it when I have it cleaned up some.

InTheShed
"• best methods of decarb (method/times/temps) without having to buy a Nova or similar device
• best methods of extraction (method/times/temps) without having to buy a Magic Butter machine or similar device"

I don't think we have answered any of these questions. We did find out that the FHO run was not decarbed after eight hours of low temp heat.We also abandoned an oven decarb because my oven temperature fluctuated too much.

As far as extraction, there is an improvement in extraction by going to 4 hours from 2 hours. Kickn wanted to do a 36 hour test but we did not have time to complete that test.

Scientific
"Even if you do follow every day, so much info seems to come in in different formats and punctuated by the usual chatter that it's hard to assemble any kind of coherent synthesis. And I sometimes get the feeling there's a back channel I'm not privy too? Private messages or stuff that got deleted as off-policy at some point or stuff people talk about in person or something? I'm probably wrong about that, but I often just lose the thread and have kinda given up, hoping someone will do some data reduction, analysis, and reporting."

It is all true. The majority of us have been following the same threads for a long time. We have gotten to know each other in a digital way.

The back channel talking in riddles and deleted messages is just a way of keeping the sight out of liability issues. Without going into details, some of the cost of tests have been shared.

"If this was going on at work, I would definitely have called for a meeting for everyone to get together to share results in person and discuss (and for coffee, donuts, and catered lunch, of course--and maybe a social hour at the brew pub afterwards?) "

How about a retreat in Las Vegas in the dead of winter?
[;>)

I never know

 

[HealthFreak]

Agreed ... what you folks did was amazing and shows your dedication and passion to share , I'm grateful as I'm sure others as well.. just wanted you to know it's appreciated

Canyon,
You and kickn did a great job and have put in more time than most people would have. We're just saying that even if you did get everything in a spread sheet most on lookers here got more out of your post above than anything else that we have been able to decipher. We are glad that you took this on and hopefully we can continue to do tests in the future we just should maybe take a little time up front and have more of a game plan before we jump in to it
Thanks for all you do
Derbybud

 

[overlord]

Ok. Im taking notes. So keep asking for clarification on the fuzzy parts. By the questions so far, I see there are indeed various experience levels represented. We shall see if we can cover some butter 101 right up front in Cliff Notes.

I know the way the info got released there was unnecessary confusion. The delays at the lab messed with the timetable. The last data was so long in coming I think we rushed getting it posted because we felt bad that people were waiting. It would have been easier to follow if released all together with explanation tying them together better. Anyway, I think we lost you along the way. This series of experiments tells a pretty good story all in all.

One thing I like, we got people in a testing mood. It's about time. The days of saying my stuff kicks ass and my decarb is the best without a lab test to back it up is in the rearview mirror. The government will not test for us and big pfarma doesn't play nice. That leaves the consumer. It's tougher without a lab and a big budget but it can be done.

I have already learned enough to discredit or find some misleading factoid in what has to be 90% of the articles, blogs, youtube how tos, etc out there. I mean, it's hard to find a long article that doesn't keep on going until it goes of the tracks. Scientific mentioned the crap Leafly puts up. They have part time writers who just want a writing job. They sit down with someone and pick up enough lingo and info to write a piece. Hell, they've smoked weed at the sorority, how tough can it be? Nobody takes this seriously,right??? It's a puff piece right? 60 Minutes it ain't. And, even here on 420, where there are some damn fine techniques to be had, is dotted with errors and misleading info.......and what's the gospel today will be revised into the "new" correct way next month.

Marijuana is the new computer age. Everything changes so fast. Why? because we now have access to labs. What was taken for granted for years can now be put to the test to sink or swim. And most will sink, just like those 1970 brownies everyone thought was so cool because some pot was sprinkled into the batter. I swear we probably got high off placebo.

If you don't mind my asking, what did you find that was misleading or discredited?

 

[Canyon]

Thanks Derby,

Kickn had a good plan and did a lot of preparation before he even contacted SweetSue and eventually me. Most of his test were to revolve around the tCheck. He had even ask the company to provide a loner for backup. I was supposed to provide the hospitality, weed and add in any tests with the tCheck I wanted.

It took a while to prove that it was giving us false readings. Then it took a while to get the tCheck people to beleave us. Then they called the lab we used and quizzed them. Then we spent the better part of a Saturday and Sunday running test for them in hopes of resolving the problem with a software update that did not work out. They get high marks for trying but we were left with trying to salvage what we could with what we had.

There was another snafu that complicated things. I made a special trip to drop off some test before Kickn flew out. We did not get some of those results until after he had returned home. That was because of some equipment change out they were doing.

On to the positive side. We proved that the Nova works for decarb, but blew it by not getting a terpene test.

There is no doubt in my medicated mind that we contributed to tCheck's version upgrade and some of there cumming attractions.

The lab delays bought us about $200 in freebees and they did not charge me the oil surcharge for the last cannabinoid test.

It is nice to be able to ask a few questions of people who charge $250 an hour consulting fees. I just wish I knew more so I could ask better questions.

Going forward
I think we should explore the sealed oven decarb method.

 

[Kicknitup1]

If you don't mind my asking, what did you find that was misleading or discredited?

LOL. Where do I start. I never tried to keep track. I can tell you for instance, boiling 1/3 oil and 2/3 water in a saucepan to extract is reckless to say the least. Will it work? yep, sort of. Should you be doing it that way???? I can't see why. Yet it's all over youtube.

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

I cannot fault anyone for the frustration.

I have the makings of an excel work book that I need to complete adding some data and wright some formulas to help keep the math down.

I put most of it on a thumb drive to work on in Alb. and did not get to it.

Not being able to upload the files in a straight forward way had me trying to post parts of charts. Hell, I have been confused over that.

I quit my day job 20 years ago and I can't believe how busy my life is. It is going to take me a day or two to get it together. I will send the file to whoever wants it when I have it cleaned up some.

InTheShed
"- best methods of decarb (method/times/temps) without having to buy a Nova or similar device
- best methods of extraction (method/times/temps) without having to buy a Magic Butter machine or similar device"

I don't think we have answered any of these questions. We did find out that the FHO run was not decarbed after eight hours of low temp heat.We also abandoned an oven decarb because my oven temperature fluctuated too much.

As far as extraction, there is an improvement in extraction by going to 4 hours from 2 hours. Kickn wanted to do a 36 hour test but we did not have time to complete that test.

Scientific
"Even if you do follow every day, so much info seems to come in in different formats and punctuated by the usual chatter that it's hard to assemble any kind of coherent synthesis. And I sometimes get the feeling there's a back channel I'm not privy too? Private messages or stuff that got deleted as off-policy at some point or stuff people talk about in person or something? I'm probably wrong about that, but I often just lose the thread and have kinda given up, hoping someone will do some data reduction, analysis, and reporting."

It is all true. The majority of us have been following the same threads for a long time. We have gotten to know each other in a digital way.

The back channel talking in riddles and deleted messages is just a way of keeping the sight out of liability issues. Without going into details, some of the cost of tests have been shared.

"If this was going on at work, I would definitely have called for a meeting for everyone to get together to share results in person and discuss (and for coffee, donuts, and catered lunch, of course--and maybe a social hour at the brew pub afterwards?) "

How about a retreat in Las Vegas in the dead of winter?
[;>)

I never know

Send me the files bud. I'll make em viewable for here and maybe do a Dropbox if peeps whant them if that's ok with the leaders

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

Another idea would be a group chat area, off site,

Maybe a computer pro among us knows if a way to secure a chat group
Just an idea

 

[Kicknitup1]

Canyon,
Great job on snagging questions. That's what we need to do. Let's answer in batches when we see where all the need is. For instance, lets take the decarb process & summarize. Then the extraction technique and the thinking there, etc. The problem was, we were providing answers that were supposed to fill in blanks for veteran butter makers. However, our readers vary in experience from none to lots. That's where it fell apart. Canyon & I are already gathering your questions. Keep throwing things out to show us what you need. Canyon, glad you are back and my best to the Misses!

 

[Kicknitup1]

Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

Another idea would be a group chat area, off site,

Maybe a computer pro among us knows if a way to secure a chat group
Just an idea

Maybe a group skype like a seminar. Good idea. ALSO! Vegas baby! It's legal now. What better place to meet? I will be there over Thanksgiving.

 

[Scientific]

LOL. Where do I start. I never tried to keep track. I can tell you for instance, boiling 1/3 oil and 2/3 water in a saucepan to extract is reckless to say the least. Will it work? yep, sort of. Should you be doing it that way???? I can't see why. Yet it's all over youtube.

There is SO much folklore surrounding cannabis growth and processing...

<climbs up on soap box> Americans seem to be becoming more and more scientifically illiterate--often seemingly proudly so. When a guy here at 420 last week posted a question earnestly wondering about the benefits of adding pomegranates to his home brew nutrient "ferment," I finally kind of gave up, feeling like Heisenberg when he discovered that Jesse Pinkman was adding cayenne pepper to his cook to give his product an extra kick.<steps down from soap box>

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

Maybe a group skype like a seminar. Good idea. ALSO! Vegas baby! It's legal now. What better place to meet? I will be there over Thanksgiving.

Tuff for me to travel to long with my old dog

Have ta get the wife to take days off, but it's doable

Skype sounds good too. I also used to do the free phone group meetings, that's an option

 

[Kicknitup1]

Thanks Derby,

Kickn had a good plan and did a lot of preparation before he even contacted SweetSue and eventually me. Most of his test were to revolve around the tCheck. He had even ask the company to provide a loner for backup. I was supposed to provide the hospitality, weed and add in any tests with the tCheck I wanted.

It took a while to prove that it was giving us false readings. Then it took a while to get the tCheck people to beleave us. Then they called the lab we used and quizzed them. Then we spent the better part of a Saturday and Sunday running test for them in hopes of resolving the problem with a software update that did not work out. They get high marks for trying but we were left with trying to salvage what we could with what we had.

There was another snafu that complicated things. I made a special trip to drop off some test before Kickn flew out. We did not get some of those results until after he had returned home. That was because of some equipment change out they were doing.

On to the positive side. We proved that the Nova works for decarb, but blew it by not getting a terpene test.

There is no doubt in my medicated mind that we contributed to tCheck's version upgrade and some of there cumming attractions.

The lab delays bought us about $200 in freebees and they did not charge me the oil surcharge for the last cannabinoid test.

It is nice to be able to ask a few questions of people who charge $250 an hour consulting fees. I just wish I knew more so I could ask better questions.

Going forward
I think we should explore the sealed oven decarb method.

LOL. Good explanation Canyon. Yep, that's pretty much how it went. We were also to compare oven decarb with the Nova. Oven fritzed out. I definitely want to get back to that. I wanted to prove the appliance worked for a number of reasons but I also believe a fine job can be done in the oven for free. I wanted to use the Nova results as a benchmark. Other than that, the Nova is simply an example of what can be done with a well controlled environment...plus smell control. You can duplicate the environment almost for free. CCoiler just did a 99% decarb on some cco in an oven.

 

[Chris Scorpio]

On my next harvest I need to do some testing

4hr oil
36hr oil
Maybe steal a Nova from someone and do above with Nova decarb

Then test at local labs

We shall see, be a month at least

 

[KeithVi]

Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

On my next harvest I need to do some testing

4hr oil
36hr oil
Maybe steal a Nova from someone and do above with Nova decarb

Then test at local labs

We shall see, be a month at least

I am struggling to believe that we still can't say with any confidence that we should be infusing oil for 2hour, 4 hours or 36 hours.

I realize there or so many variables, types of oil, decarb outside of the oil or within oil. Crap, I just wish there was a rule so that I could move forward knowing I was making the best oil I could.

 

[Scientific]

I am struggling to believe that we still can't say with any confidence that we should be infusing oil for 2hour, 4 hours or 36 hours.

I realize there or so many variables, types of oil, decarb outside of the oil or within oil. Crap, I just wish there was a rule so that I could move forward knowing I was making the best oil I could.

Clearly, standards for processing and extracting cannabis are called for, like the US Government had 100 years ago in the United States Pharmacopoeia! (Note how they used dogs to assay for strength--you know you've got a good batch when it makes your dog stagger.)