Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[SweetSue]

My science background and interests are what brought me to this thread! I'll jump in if I think I have anything useful to offer. Right now, like everyone else here, I'm just really curious about how to optimize all aspects of extraction. I think it's fantastic that actual lab testing is now available at reasonable prices.

I look forward to when we eventually get cannabis off of Schedule 1 so the people with nice labs and federal research money can get to work on this substance that is used by so many and has been for thousands of years.

Amen to that!

 

[Scientific]

I look forward to when we eventually get cannabis off of Schedule 1...

Amen to that!

When Hillary Clinton was asked about legalization, I remember that her response was to sidestep the question while simultaneously taking a step forward by saying that we should get cannabis of Schedule 1 so it can be studied.

(Remember Hillary? Remember reasoned political discourse? Sigh...)

 

[Canyon]

Interesting times for sure.

 

[dr.h00k]

When Hillary Clinton was asked about legalization, I remember that her response was to sidestep the question while simultaneously taking a step forward by saying that we should get cannabis of Schedule 1 so it can be studied.

(Remember Hillary? Remember reasoned political discourse? Sigh...)

...the likes of which the world has never seen!!??......cheerz...h00k......God Bless Ya'll...

 

[Canyon]

Excited to see all the results

I have a harvest of CBDutch treat that's in the fridge now drying

I may do some oil and have it tested as well as the flower...to see how they compare
$150 but would be a good test I think

It has been a busy day. It took me a while to find your post again.

If you decide to have any test run please post them.

There is something kind of warm and fuzzy about having cannabis tested. It is like saying "I grew something that I thought was worth testing."

I never know

 

[Neiko]

 

[Canyon]

Welcome neikodog, jump in!

Scientific,
As I understand decarboxyolation, THCA conversion to THC is 0.88%, I assume by weight. Will that mean that there is a 12% weight loss?

If I am correct and there is a loss in weight, then the decarb process could be monitored by weight once the water has been removed.

The last chemistry I had was 50 years ago. Is any of this correct?

I never know

 

[Oldbear]

I believe you! Maybe cause I'm in Canada with safety measures?

It's a digital oven

Hi g2hm try this:

Press and hold broil button a few seconds until c or f displays
Arrow up or down to change to what you want
Press cancel

Pretty sure it is factory set to f.

Happy baking

 

[Chris Scorpio]

It has been a busy day. It took me a while to find your post again.

If you decide to have any test run please post them.

There is something kind of warm and fuzzy about having cannabis tested. It is like saying "I grew something that I thought was worth testing."

I never know

I got the Cannalytics test system...was sweet when I finally got results

So, yes, I have the testing bug...lol

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Hmm. You got me thinking , I never made infused jerky, but have made jerky with some honey and teriyaki a little soy sauce or brags aminos , I don't see why we couldn't infuse some honey and have a go at it . Let's see who has a go at it first and let's share how it turns out ..

I cook A LOT

This is on my short list for sure.

I did habanero hot sauce

Was thinking pizza soon, some infused sauce would be great

Damn now I'm hungry

 

[Scientific]

As I understand decarboxyolation, THCA conversion to THC is 0.88%, I assume by weight. Will that mean that there is a 12% weight loss?

If I am correct and there is a loss in weight, then the decarb process could be monitored by weight once the water has been removed.

Hi Canyon -- I took a lot of chemistry in college and thought it was really interesting, but I was by no means a chem wiz (and that was back before my beard turned gray ), but what the hell, I'll take a whack at this. (I already caught a dumb mistake in the noodling below. There may be more...)

I calculate about 12% weight loss from decarboxylation too, yeah. I think that the weight loss from just the decarb process alone would be difficult to measure, though, since you'd also have low-molecular-weight organic molecules (e.g. terpenes) off-gassing and water evaporating and God only knows what other kinds of reactions going on.

But maybe if you just monitored the total weight of the sample over time you could see when the weight stops changing and that might be useful?

I would guess that the weight would drop rapidly at first and then more slowly, so it could be hard to know when to say "when," buy maybe you could just set an arbitrary limit, saying "It's done when the weight is changing by less than 1% in five minutes," or something like that?

Hypothetically, a 500-gram sample that's 15% THCA would have 75 grams of THCA.
That 75 grams of THCA would drop to about 66 grams after being totally decarboylated, for a loss of 9 grams.
The 500-gram sample might loose another 50 grams of H2O (10%)(??) and maybe 2 grams(??) of terpenes and other small organic molecules to drop a total of 9 + 50 + 2 = 61 grams to 439 grams in this wild-guess scenario.

And weighing the sample every 5 minutes you might see that the weight drops the most in the first 30 minutes, and after that the rate of weight loss slows until from 85 to 90 minutes it only drops 5 grams (1%) of the original weight, so you make that the stopping point and send that sample to the lab?

That might be an effective way to monitor, because even though you don't know exactly what you're measuring, you still know when the your sample has stopped losing significant amounts of weight.

The summer harvest from the little dwarf in the flower pot out on my deck is drying in the corner right now. Maybe I could give this a try just for funzies...

 

[Kicknitup1]

Welcome neikodog, jump in!

Scientific,
As I understand decarboxyolation, THCA conversion to THC is 0.88%, I assume by weight. Will that mean that there is a 12% weight loss?

If I am correct and there is a loss in weight, then the decarb process could be monitored by weight once the water has been removed.

The last chemistry I had was 50 years ago. Is any of this correct?

I never know

There is a .88% weight loss, yes. When the carboxyl group leaves it reduces the weight. The problem with the monitoring would be weighing while heating. That would be tough. And yeah there's the water thing too.

 

[Kicknitup1]

(And just by the bye, I would also be interested in seeing hard science--or as close as we can get to that--for methods to increase bioavailability with lecithin, etc.)

There is a good bit of documentation out there on encapsulation and lecithin/bio availability. I read a bunch about it in the food industry but I don't have anything at my fingertips. Sue probably has it memorized. lol

BTW, your decarb temps have to be close. I used 220 for 110 min for a good while then bumped to 240 @1 hr. I bet they get close to the same place. What we have found is that CBN does not form as quickly as the chart implies with our style decarbs. (meaning not CCO in n-hexane on a glass plate). Let's get the lab test back on the Nova decarb and we can talk more about time/temp.

Need to clarify because it matters! I preheat the jar. I bring the oven up to temp before I put the buds in. I put the jar in the oven while it's preheating, take it out & add material then back in 1 hr.

 

[Scientific]

And yeah there's the water thing too.

Just thinking about this a little more, it occurred to me that if you lost 10% of the 500-gram sample weight as water (50 grams) and 12% of the 15% THCA (12% of 75 grams, so 9 grams), the 9-gram weight loss of interest would be only 18% of the 50 g water weight, so it's "signal" would be hard to track among the water loss "background noise."

 

[Kicknitup1]

Just thinking about this a little more, it occurred to me that if you lost 10% of the 500-gram sample weight as water (50 grams) and 12% of the 15% THCA (12% of 75 grams, so 9 grams), the 9-gram weight loss of interest would be only 18% of the 50 g water weight, so it's "signal" would be hard to track among the water loss "background noise."

Yep. lol

 

[Canyon]

Hi Canyon -- I took a lot of chemistry in college and thought it was really interesting, but I was by no means a chem wiz (and that was back before my beard turned gray ), but what the hell, I'll take a whack at this. (I already caught a dumb mistake in the noodling below. There may be more...)

I calculate about 12% weight loss from decarboxylation too, yeah. I think that the weight loss from just the decarb process alone would be difficult to measure, though, since you'd also have low-molecular-weight organic molecules (e.g. terpenes) off-gassing and water evaporating and God only knows what other kinds of reactions going on.

But maybe if you just monitored the total weight of the sample over time you could see when the weight stops changing and that might be useful?

I would guess that the weight would drop rapidly at first and then more slowly, so it could be hard to know when to say "when," buy maybe you could just set an arbitrary limit, saying "It's done when the weight is changing by less than 1% in five minutes," or something like that?

Hypothetically, a 500-gram sample that's 15% THCA would have 75 grams of THCA.
That 75 grams of THCA would drop to about 66 grams after being totally decarboylated, for a loss of 9 grams.
The 500-gram sample might loose another 50 grams of H2O (10%)(??) and maybe 2 grams(??) of terpenes and other small organic molecules to drop a total of 9 + 50 + 2 = 61 grams to 439 grams in this wild-guess scenario.

And weighing the sample every 5 minutes you might see that the weight drops the most in the first 30 minutes, and after that the rate of weight loss slows until from 85 to 90 minutes it only drops 5 grams (1%) of the original weight, so you make that the stopping point and send that sample to the lab?

That might be an effective way to monitor, because even though you don't know exactly what you're measuring, you still know when the your sample has stopped losing significant amounts of weight.

The summer harvest from the little dwarf in the flower pot out on my deck is drying in the corner right now. Maybe I could give this a try just for funzies...

Thanks, your answer will help a lot of members.

Your ball park on the moisture matches up to the only two test I have had run that contained a moisture reading. The first one was some very dry buds that came in at 8%. The other one was closer to a 62% RH mark and tested at 10.8%.

Something I have been guilty of doing with weights and measures is to interchange grams and milliliters as close enough. If it was just something for my self why bother?

The lab test for the infused oil had a density of 0.90. I weighed the buds and the oil for that test, but it is probably the first time I have gone to the trouble.

Remember,
I know nothing
[;>)

 

[SweetSue]

Remember,
I know nothing[/SIZE]
[;>)

I have a hearty laugh every time I read this, my knowledgeable friend.

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Good Morning everyone

How goes the Battle???

 

[Kicknitup1]

Good Morning everyone

How goes the Battle???

Heading to the battlefield tomorrow!

 

[Canyon]

Kickn,
I will send an email sometime today and probably call you tonight.
Best