Carmen's Winter Autos With ViparSpectra XS1500 Pro!

[Gee64]

Potassium silicate is first because it will precipitate out the other elements if it's added later. I'm not sure why calcium or magnesium would need to go in first since there are both in many nutrient bottles.

Also, neither calcium nor magnesium are chelated. Only the tiniest micronutrients like iron and manganese are.

Aye aye aye Shed that link is very dangerous. It insinuates, without actually saying straight out, that you can dump synthetics into an organic grow and everything will be fine because the plant can't tell the difference. Well technically that is correct, an ion is an ion, however the rhizosphere will suffer greatly and the organic grow is destroyed and must continue synthetically. Does the author work for big agra? cuz thats textbook brain washing. If you are growing organically and trust that info blindly you will have issues. Synthetics work best in a sterile environment. Organics is powered by germs. You shouldn't mix the 2. It may have gotten deeper but thats a big red flag statement so the rest of the article can't be trusted, even if it is 100% correct. I stopped reading at that point.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Not that it matters now, but I got a response from the company that makes Seagro.
They didn't understand what I was asking, they just confirmed that the labels are in grams to make calculations of kilograms per hectare easier.

 

[InTheShed]

Aye aye aye Shed that link is very dangerous. It insinuates, without actually saying straight out, that you can dump synthetics into an organic grow and everything will be fine because the plant can't tell the difference. Well technically that is correct, an ion is an ion, however the rhizosphere will suffer greatly and the organic grow is destroyed and must continue synthetically. Does the author work for big agra? cuz thats textbook brain washing. If you are growing organically and trust that info blindly you will have issues. Synthetics work best in a sterile environment. Organics is powered by germs. You shouldn't mix the 2. It may have gotten deeper but thats a big red flag statement so the rest of the article can't be trusted, even if it is 100% correct. I stopped reading at that point.

You should check with farside in his thread about any ties to agribusiness, but if you have a flowering auto suffering in an organic grow, the best thing you can do for you plant is feed it synthetic nutrients. The medium is not sacrosanct since the goal is the harvest.

I haven't found anything that says that synthetic nutrients destroy organic soil. Is Otter ruining his soil by adding Sweet Candy?

I really sent you the link so you could read the chelation information, since you were unclear on the role it plays in the use of synthetic nutes.

 

[Carmen Ray]

Not that it matters now, but I got a response from the company that makes Seagro.
They didn't understand what I was asking, they just confirmed that the labels are in grams to make calculations of kilograms per hectare easier.

Thank you Mel. That's not a good sign, if they can't handle growers' questions about the product! I appreciate you making the effort!

 

[Carmen Ray]

Greetings,

Today I took a leaf out of Cola Monster's book and decided to make some videos of my plants, so that you can get a good view of how they are looking atm. I did a bit of a delarf and defol beforehand.

Have a fantastic hump day!

 

[NickHardy]

Very nice Carmen! On my phone so can’t see any plant details. They look beautifully shaped for the space.Music is awesome. What is it for the Parma? Its annoying the hell out of me!

Nick

 

[Carmen Ray]

Very nice Carmen! On my phone so can’t see any plant details. They look beautifully shaped for the space.Music is awesome. What is it for the Parma? Its annoying the hell out of me!

Nick

Thanks Nick It's Bach, Air On A G String. I love these old records remastered. They are shellacked 78s (not mine!)

 

[NickHardy]

D’uuh obvs. Thanks!

 

[StoneOtter]

How often should it get calmag do you think?

My SIP ladies have to have it every day or they get both calcium and mag def. severely!

Is Otter ruining his soil by adding Sweet Candy?

The information I've gotten up to now have led me to believe yes. I'm relying on watching it actually work in a real garden. Emilya's. Also my tomatoes get 1/4 tsp/2gal water every day per plant and just love it as an add to Geoflora. I've cut back to once a week in the cannabis garden. I'm shy to keep on it because of historical talk of problems, but my tomatoes have not suffered one bit! It doesn't seem to be the problem we've read about. I still don't want to push and find out in the middle of a nice healthy grow that it is. I have not tried it in my Rev LOS and have no desire to at present. I'm chicken.

Greetings,

Today I took a leaf out of Cola Monster's book and decided to make some videos of my plants, so that you can get a good view of how they are looking atm. I did a bit of a delarf and defol beforehand.

Have a fantastic hump day!

They look loved and attended to and I see a delicious buddy future for you in them! Keep at it, your almost there!

 

[InTheShed]

The information I've gotten up to now have led me to believe yes. I'm relying on watching it actually work in a real garden. Emilya's. Also my tomatoes get 1/4 tsp/2gal water every day per plant and just love it as an add to Geoflora. I've cut back to once a week in the cannabis garden. I'm shy to keep on it because of historical talk of problems, but my tomatoes have not suffered one bit! It doesn't seem to be the problem we've read about. I still don't want to push and find out in the middle of a nice healthy grow that it is. I have not tried it in my Rev LOS and have no desire to at present. I'm chicken.

Thanks Otter! Since Gee was so adamant about synthetic nutes messing up organic soil, saying: "the rhizosphere will suffer greatly and the organic grow is destroyed" and "You shouldn't mix the 2," I was wondering about how he felt having told you that Sweet Candy was okay to use. It's absolutely a synthetic nutrient as I pointed out in your journal.

 

[Gee64]

Thanks Otter! Since Gee was so adamant about synthetic nutes messing up organic soil, saying: "the rhizosphere will suffer greatly and the organic grow is destroyed" and "You shouldn't mix the 2," I was wondering about how he felt having told you that Sweet Candy was okay to use. It's absolutely a synthetic nutrient as I pointed out in your journal.

That's not entirely accurate to what I said.

I mentioned to Stone that it may cause him issues down the road. He replied something to the effect that he was going to use it fairly sparingly.

He is aware that it may bite him down the road.

With a brix of 3 he was a prime target for hardship so getting his brix to jump like that is awesome.

As far as a rescue goes I would say mission accomplished. He may just very well have to finish with more sweet candy now.

And yes, his organic grow may very well be destroyed, so he finishes it synthetically. He knew that going in.

Every time he adds phosphorus that high myco slows down. The plant has no need for it so it cuts off exudates. Myco goes dormant. It can't photosynthesize so it relies on exudates for sugar.

After feeding it Sweet Candy for awhile he may have to use other synthetics too as other deficiencies may arise.

But at 3 brix It was in jeopardy so Im glad he got it squared away.

I have nothing against synthetics at all. Its a different form of the same art.

If people want to mix both organics and synthetics then fly atter. As long as they know ahead of time that they may be taking a risk. Its not undoable, you just can't go at it on a whim.

Stone knows the risk. Fly Atter.

If he grows in the same spot next year he should add Sweet Candy sooner.

 

[InTheShed]

That's not entirely accurate to what I said.

I mentioned to Stone that it may cause him issues down the road. He replied something to the effect that he was going to use it fairly sparingly.

He is aware that it may bite him down the road.

With a brix of 3 he was a prime target for hardship so getting his brix to jump like that is awesome.

As far as a rescue goes I would say mission accomplished. He may just very well have to finish with more sweet candy now.

And yes, his organic grow may very well be destroyed, so he finishes it synthetically. He knew that going in.

Every time he adds phosphorus that high myco slows down. The plant has no need for it so it cuts off exudates. Myco goes dormant. It can't photosynthesize so it relies on exudates for sugar.

After feeding it Sweet Candy for awhile he may have to use other synthetics too as other deficiencies may arise.

But at 3 brix It was in jeopardy so Im glad he got it squared away.

I have nothing against synthetics at all. Its a different form of the same art.

If people want to mix both organics and synthetics then fly atter. As long as they know ahead of time that they may be taking a risk. Its not undoable, you just can't go at it on a whim.

Stone knows the risk. Fly Atter.

If he grows in the same spot next year he should add Sweet Candy sooner.

Thanks Gee, but that's kind of a different response than stopping mid-read of farside's post on synthetics and chelates, calling it dangerous. And other than P's interaction with mycos, I can't find anything that says adding synthetic nutrients has any negative effect an organic grow or the organic-ness of the soil itself.

And yes, his organic grow may very well be destroyed, so he finishes it synthetically.

All of the other nutrients besides the P and K in Sweet Candy are still being supplied to Otter's trees organically, including nitrogen, calcium, and magnesium. If his organic grow is destroyed then wouldn't he be seeing massive deficiencies in his other major elements?

 

[Gee64]

Thanks Gee, but that's kind of a different response than stopping mid-read of farside's post on synthetics and chelates, calling it dangerous. And other than P's interaction with mycos, I can't find anything that says adding synthetic nutrients has any negative effect an organic grow or the organic-ness of the soil itself.

All of the other nutrients besides the P and K in Sweet Candy are still being supplied to Otter's trees organically, including nitrogen, calcium, and magnesium. If his organic grow is destroyed then wouldn't he be seeing massive deficiencies in his other major elements?

He will sort of. Sweet candy is also full of fulvics and humics, which are organics use to carry nutrients into a plant in a hydroponic manner. They know that the high phos will harm the myco but the other goodies in sweet candy need to get into the plant because myco won't be doing it for much longer. If it was only phos and potassium in there he soon would see all kinds of deficiencies. Once myco is gone the plant starves organically speaking.

This is a very similar product that I keep on my shelf. It comes with a disclaimer that its not OMRI certified, but if you use this and feed with their tea.

Which contains a lot of similar things to the rest of whats in Sweet Candy, mainly the very high amino counts from ocean products, as well as humates and fulvates, just like Sweet Candy does.

It will finish a crop nicely if it goes south in flower, but you don't really want to recycle that soil into an organic grow in the future.

That right there... test your ph, that tells you myco no longer controls the rhizosphere. You don't adjust ph in an organic grow.

Also tells you to sterilize before you reuse anything.

uI have tested this in sde-by-side clone runs many times. The bud hardener ruins the soil but ups the yield. If you know that going in then Fly Atter.

That article, like I said before, that article states that the plant cannot tell the difference between synthetics and organics on the molecular basis.

That kinda misleads one to think it doesn't matter if its synthetic or organic.

Well like I already said, that is true, the plant can't tell.

Thats why hydro and organics both work.

But to someone just getting on their feet, they could so very easily misinterpret that, and thats the Man talking his spin doctor stuff whether the author realizes it or not.

It is the truth though, the plant can't tell the difference. Your organic grow won't be the same anymore.

Oops did they forget to mention that part?

No worries, I think I did when talking with Stone and again right now.

Again I don't begrudge synthetic growers.

If I pissed you off I apologize, I just didn't want anyone else who followed that link to think you could mix the 2 without consequence.

That article could very well be a snippet from a deeper article that may have laid out some basics and it was out of context too.

 

[InTheShed]

I don't want to dissect that point by point but thank you for posting in such detail. I did want to say that all the humics and fulvics in the world won't work if the soil is destroyed by the added salt-based nutes. But it's not, as there are still organic elements supplying the microbes with nitrogen, calcium, magnesium, sulfur, and the rest of what the plant needs from them. The plant won't be using the herd when asking for potassium and phosphorus, as the ease of access from synthetics bypasses them.

You don't adjust ph in an organic grow.

It's the medium that determines whether you pH or not, not the way the plant gets fed. Soil buffers pH, hydro does not.

If I pissed you off I apologize, I just didn't want anyone else who followed that link to think you could mix the 2 without consequence.

No need to apologize Gee, I'm not pissed off at all! I just found it alarming that you wouldn't even read farside's post to the chelate part because that was really where I was pointing you.

I think there are other organic growers on the site that feel differently about the ability to mix synthetics and organic in the same grow. Otter mentioned that "I'm relying on watching it actually work in a real garden. Emilya's" and I believe she has been reusing her soil for many grows. I could be wrong but I think I've seen her mention that.

 

[Gee64]

I don't want to dissect that point by point but thank you for posting in such detail. I did want to say that all the humics and fulvics in the world won't work if the soil is destroyed by the added salt-based nutes. But it's not, as there are still organic elements supplying the microbes with nitrogen, calcium, magnesium, sulfur, and the rest of what the plant needs from them. The plant won't be using the herd when asking for potassium and phosphorus, as the ease of access from synthetics bypasses them.

It's the medium that determines whether you pH or not, not the way the plant gets fed. Soil buffers pH, hydro does not.

No need to apologize Gee, I'm not pissed off at all! I just found it alarming that you wouldn't even read farside's post to the chelate part because that was really where I was pointing you.

I think there are other organic growers on the site that feel differently about the ability to mix synthetics and organic in the same grow. Otter mentioned that "I'm relying on watching it actually work in a real garden. Emilya's" and I believe she has been reusing her soil for many grows. I could be wrong but I think I've seen her mention that.

I did state it can be done, just not on a whim. Again.... as long as you are aware Fly Atter. I just wanted to make Stone aware is all. I would also hate to see someone with limited knowledge start dumping synthetics into their LOS pots thinking its doesn't have consequences.

 

[Carmen Ray]

I'm not sure where all this chelation info comes from but that's not the difference between synthetic and organic grows. Synthetic nutes are built from elemental salts, designed to be immediately accessible by the roots, where organics need a microherd to deliver the elememts in the soil to the roots.

Do synthetics destroy the microherd?

Synthetics work best in a sterile environment. Organics is powered by germs. You shouldn't mix the 2.

Considering that your statements about organics are being challenged, do you have any references that support this conclusion?

Less than 1% of synthetic nutes are chelated. Here is an excellent explanation of chelation for anyone whose interested in the science.

I am copy-pasting Farside05's points about chelation here for easy reference:

"Enough about Salts, let’s talk about Chelation. What is it and why is it necessary? In really simplified form, the metal trace elements needed for our plants tend to react poorly with growing mediums that are a pH level of 6.5 and above. Instead of being readily available to our plants, they bind with the medium instead. Think of a Chelated trace elementa as an M&M. Say the plant wants chocolate, but when you try to give it chocolate, it melts all over your hands, and not in the plants mouth. The solution? Let’s put a hard candy shell on the chocolate and turn it into an M&M. The plant consumes the M&M, getting the chocolate it craves from inside the hard candy shell, and you don’t get chocolate all over your hands. Chelation works much the same. The barrier that the trace element has been chelated with keeps it from sticking to the soil so the plant can uptake it though the roots or leaves.

Now that we know what Chelation is, what types are there? Traditionally EDTA has been used to Chelate the metal trace elements in fertilizers. It does its job quite well. The other type is Chelation with Amino Acids. Is this something new? No. Although you can find studies dating back to 2006 on Amino Acid Chelation, you haven’t really seen many products adopting it until 2015. So what is the difference? EDTA is a synthetic, non-biodegradable, product. It is considered a pollutant and can build up in animal and human tissue. Amino Acids are organic and biodegradable. They are not considered a pollutant to the environment and are more sustainable. In the 2006 study mentioned above, using rice crops as a test subject, the Amino Acid Chelated fertilizer produced 10% more yield. Amino Acid Chelation is more efficient than EDTA and supplies that plant with more of the trace minerals. Which type of Chelation does Mega Crop use? Amino Acid, whereas many of the other fertilizers are still using EDTA.

The low down on Chelation. It’s not a dirty word. You want your fertilizer Chelated. You want your trace minerals available over a wide pH range and available to your plant. The only valid argument against Chelation is that it was Chelated with EDTA and that it is a pollutant, non-biodegradable, and can build up in human tissue. Problem solved with Amino Acid Chelation." ~ Farside05


Is Farside05 saying that synthetic nutrients must be chelated in order for the plants to access them from the grow medium? Is it possible that by introducing amino acids to do the chelating, you could end up with a build up of ions / salts whatever?

It will finish a crop nicely if it goes south in flower, but you don't really want to recycle that soil into an organic grow in the future.

I can follow the description of the M&Ms, that sort of thing, but I don't know enough botany to reach any conclusions of my own. Why wouldn't you want to recycle that soil into an organic grow in the future? What has happened to it by adding the synthetics that can't be undone in composting?

And other than P's interaction with mycos, I can't find anything that says adding synthetic nutrients has any negative effect an organic grow or the organic-ness of the soil itself.

I'm seeing two growers who I respect very much, taking opposing views on a subject that concerns me and I don't yet have enough knowledge to make decisions like this myself.

My SIP ladies have to have it every day or they get both calcium and mag def. severely!

Ok! Thanks Otter! This is critical!

The information I've gotten up to now have led me to believe yes. I'm relying on watching it actually work in a real garden. Emilya's. Also my tomatoes get 1/4 tsp/2gal water every day per plant and just love it as an add to Geoflora. I've cut back to once a week in the cannabis garden. I'm shy to keep on it because of historical talk of problems, but my tomatoes have not suffered one bit! It doesn't seem to be the problem we've read about. I still don't want to push and find out in the middle of a nice healthy grow that it is. I have not tried it in my Rev LOS and have no desire to at present. I'm chicken.

I wouldn't want to mess up the balance of my perfectly tuned LOS either and would avoid additives that might cause problems.

They look loved and attended to and I see a delicious buddy future for you in them! Keep at it, your almost there!

Thanks Otter!

I did state it can be done, just not on a whim. Again.... as long as you are aware Fly Atter. I just wanted to make Stone aware is all. I would also hate to see someone with limited knowledge start dumping synthetics into their LOS pots thinking its doesn't have consequences.

With gratitude and respect to you all, I am none the wiser about the science of whether or not to mix synthetics with organics. It certainly sounds like something to be done with extreme caution and only if you understand chemistry and plant biology at a high level.

 

[InTheShed]

Do synthetics destroy the microherd?

I cannot find any evidence online that they do. Excessive amounts of phosphorus will render the mycos in the soil dormant, but the actual bacteria involved in feeding your plant are not affected. My favorite site to quote here is down at the moment but if it ever comes back, it's here.

Here is some additional info, that...
"...[y]ou can use both organic and synthetic fertilizers. For immediate results, you may need to feed with synthetic fertilizers while adding organic fertilizer blends to rebuild soil health over time."
Source

Is Farside05 saying that synthetic nutrients must be chelated in order for the plants to access them from the grow medium? Is it possible that by introducing amino acids to do the chelating, you could end up with a build up of ions / salts whatever?

As I have mentioned, the amount of nutrients that are chelated in any bottle of sythetic nutes is under 1% of the total. Only the tiniest amounts of micros need to be chelated to be taken up by the roots: iron (Fe), zinc (Zn), manganese (Mn), copper (Cu), boron (B), chlorine (Cl), molybdenum (Mo), and nickel (Ni) (Source). Those ions are actually taken up by the plant because they are chelated rather than being left to build up in the soil.

99% of synthetic nutrients are not chelated. Chelation is really not a concern for anyone using synthetic nutrients unless you are doing commercial farming.

 

[Carmen Ray]

I cannot find any evidence online that they do. Excessive amounts of phosphorus will render the mycos in the soil dormant, but the actual bacteria involved in feeding your plant are not affected. My favorite site to quote here is down at the moment but if it ever comes back, it's here.

Unfortunately still down. I'll check back later.
I'm not so sure that the bacteria would be unaffected. I'd like to find some science. I will also look.

EDIT: I found this

Here is some additional info, that...
"...[y]ou can use both organic and synthetic fertilizers. For immediate results, you may need to feed with synthetic fertilizers while adding organic fertilizer blends to rebuild soil health over time."
Source

This sounds like you would be coming from a depleted baseline, right? It also sounds like it takes a long time for the soil to return to a healthy organic state. The garden center does say in their blog that you must follow the instructions on the packaging, but they don't discuss the possible interactions of the synthetics with the organics at a molecular and microherd level.

As I have mentioned, the amount of nutrients that are chelated in any bottle of sythetic nutes is under 1% of the total. Only the tiniest amounts of micros need to be chelated to be taken up by the roots: iron (Fe), zinc (Zn), manganese (Mn), copper (Cu), boron (B), chlorine (Cl), molybdenum (Mo), and nickel (Ni) (Source). Those ions are actually taken up by the plant because they are chelated rather than being left to build up in the soil.

99% of synthetic nutrients are not chelated. Chelation is really not a concern for anyone using synthetic nutrients unless you are doing commercial farming.

Thank you. So chelation is completely irrelevant to the nutrition of my plants in a micro organic grow? What about those Amino Acid / EDTA residues?

 

[Gee64]

You guys are already learning things... Excellent!

Understanding mycos role and capabilities will help further things.

Not once did I mention detriment to microbes directly, but if myco doesn't share exudates with a specific herd they too will go dormant. The exudates from the plant get delivered as myco sees fit.

Keep reading.

Jeff Lowenfels is a great source. Dr Albrecht is another.

I have posted a couple videos that are very educational.

I am stepping out of this arguement. I have been involved with it too many times.

If me wanting to stop a newb from dumping CIL Golfgreen 20-20-20 into his or her organic grow makes me a dikk then I guess I'm a dikk. I can live with that.

 

[InTheShed]

I will also look.

EDIT: I found this

"In our research, we have observed that fertilizer applications increase enzyme activities related to nutrient cycling. This greater enzyme activity can be compared to the total microbial biomass. We could find that fertilizers promote microbial growth and activity as opposed to killing the microbes or decreasing their activity. Greater enzyme activity and microbial biomass, indicators of good soil health, can benefit from fertilizer which shows that fertilizer can also build healthy soils."

Doesn't sound like they've finished their work.

What about those Amino Acid / EDTA residues?

Home cannabis growers aren't applying chelates at a high enough concentration to affect the environment.

If me wanting to stop a newb from dumping CIL Golfgreen 20-20-20 into his or her organic grow makes me a dikk then I guess I'm a dikk. I can live with that.

I don't believe anyone called you a dick, I certainly didn't, nor do I consider you remotely dickish! I don't recommend 20-20-20 either as it's the wrong ratio for cannabis plants. But I always recommend the correct ratio of synthetic nutes for folks with failed organic grows, of which there are many. We're growing plants to harvest our meds, and I see no reason to hew to an organic "ideal" to the peril of the harvest.

All the advice about organic soil is great for the next batch you mix/buy, but it doesn't save the current failing autoflower.