Carmen And Tassie Compare Notes: Big Angel And Super Mazar Autos

[Azimuth]

Thank you Azi, this is much appreciated. Please will you look at the refractometer and tell me if it is the right thing.

That one says for sea water tanks and I'm not sure if the prism inside is calibrated differently for plant sap vs water?

The device looks right as far as the housing goes, but maybe @Gee64 would know if it will work.

I can get one but I doubt I will have the physical strength to squeeze a drop from a leaf, if I even have enough leaves on a plant to sacrifice.

How about a bench vice? Lol. But I'm seriously considering trying one.

Hmm, I really doubt I can do this. Is it possible to monitor VPD without checking Brix and Calcium levels?

Yes, two different things. VPD basically tells you how the plant doing with all your various inputs. An overall scorecard with the score being the number the calculator spits out when you input the three factors (room temp, leaf temp, and rh). How hard is the plant working to move sap from the roots through the leaves.

The brix level is the percentage of sugars in your leaf sap. Above 12 and bugs no like. But it takes an organic grow to get those high numbers. Just one more reason to grow organic, I guess. No more bugs is a welcome change.

So you can have good vpd without high brix, but it'll be harder to go the other way. Probably unlikely you could have a high brix with poor vpd.

This I'd find online right?

Yes, I just googled "leaf vpd graph" and got a bunch. Make sure the chart is showing leaf vpd (not room vpd) and ideally would allow you to choose a leaf offset (1,2,5 degrees, etc).

The graph will look like half a rainbow with different ideal zones depending on stage of growth.

Ok, I literally have nowhere for a worm farm to go, unless it can stand in the hot summer sun and the pouring cold winter rain, and remain weather proof and sealed to ants. I buy very good quality EWC and it's not badly priced.

Hey, as long as you have access to good castings at a good price go for it. (Takes all the fun out of it though! Lol.)

 

[Gee64]

That one says for sea water tanks and I'm not sure if the prism inside is calibrated differently for plant sap vs water?

The device looks right as far as the housing goes, but maybe @Gee64 would know if it will work.


How about a bench vice? Lol. But I'm seriously considering trying one.


Yes, two different things. VPD basically tells you how the plant doing with all your various inputs. An overall scorecard with the score being the number the calculator spits out when you input the three factors (room temp, leaf temp, and rh). How hard is the plant working to move sap from the roots through the leaves.

The brix level is the percentage of sugars in your leaf sap. Above 12 and bugs no like. But it takes an organic grow to get those high numbers. Just one more reason to grow organic, I guess. No more bugs is a welcome change.

So you can have good vpd without high brix, but it'll be harder to go the other way. Probably unlikely you could have a high brix with poor vpd.


Yes, I just googled "leaf vpd graph" and got a bunch. Make sure the chart is showing leaf vpd (not room vpd) and ideally would allow you to choose a leaf offset (1,2,5 degrees, etc).

The graph will look like half a rainbow with different ideal zones depending on stage of growth.


Hey, as long as you have access to good castings at a good price go for it. (Takes all the fun out of it though! Lol.)

You want one advertised to measure brix and sugars, which is quite commonly dual purpose for measuring alcohol content. They are commonly used for winemaking.

Make sure it says it's for measuring sugar content in fruits and plants, not antifreeze or salinities.

 

[Gee64]

It may have a dual scale for brix and alcohol or brix and specific gravity, also known as S.G.

 

[Carmen Ray]

That one says for sea water tanks and I'm not sure if the prism inside is calibrated differently for plant sap vs water?

It mentions measuring brix in the information about it.

The device looks right as far as the housing goes, but maybe @Gee64 would know if it will work.


How about a bench vice? Lol. But I'm seriously considering trying one.

I'll see. At the moment I don't grow enough leaves to sacrifice any to brix testing and I don't really want a bench vice damaging my dining table.

Yes, two different things. VPD basically tells you how the plant doing with all your various inputs. An overall scorecard with the score being the number the calculator spits out when you input the three factors (room temp, leaf temp, and rh). How hard is the plant working to move sap from the roots through the leaves.

Ok and the hygrometer and the thermometer will tell me this?

The brix level is the percentage of sugars in your leaf sap. Above 12 and bugs no like. But it takes an organic grow to get those high numbers. Just one more reason to grow organic, I guess. No more bugs is a welcome change.

So you can have good vpd without high brix, but it'll be harder to go the other way. Probably unlikely you could have a high brix with poor vpd.


Yes, I just googled "leaf vpd graph" and got a bunch. Make sure the chart is showing leaf vpd (not room vpd) and ideally would allow you to choose a leaf offset (1,2,5 degrees, etc).

The graph will look like half a rainbow with different ideal zones depending on stage of growth.

Thank you!

Hey, as long as you have access to good castings at a good price go for it. (Takes all the fun out of it though! Lol.)

I know. In my early life I lived on farms

You want one advertised to measure brix and sugars, which is quite commonly dual purpose for measuring alcohol content. They are commonly used for winemaking.

Make sure it says it's for measuring sugar content in fruits and plants, not antifreeze or salinities.

It does say that, which is why I double check with you before completing the transaction

It may have a dual scale for brix and alcohol or brix and specific gravity, also known as S.G.

Okay they have ones for wine, so I guess that's what I should go for when I do.

I think for now I will leave out the refractometer. I am guessing my brix is pretty good because the plant looks so good and I take care to keep up with the fish / kelp water and weekly top dressings.

 

[Azimuth]

Ok and the hygrometer and the thermometer will tell me this?

They will tell you two of the three readings for VPD and the IR gun gives you the third.

 

[Lady Cannafan]

They will tell you two of the three readings for VPD and the IR gun gives you the third.

I appreciate all of this information going on from all of you, and thanks to @Carmen Ray asking the questions for me in advance.
I have the refractometer and the proper IR gun, so I'm going to finally give this a go as well. Garlic press try first, and if that doesn't do the job, a small pair of vice grips with a couple of quarters.

 

[StoneOtter]

I appreciate all of this information going on from all of you, and thanks to @Carmen Ray asking the questions for me in advance.
I have the refractometer and the proper IR gun, so I'm going to finally give this a go as well. Garlic press try first, and if that doesn't do the job, a small pair of vice grips with a couple of quarters.

I use a garlic press. I ball a leaf up and place it in then press gently and take a wooden bbq skewer and turn the ball and press again. Maybe three or four times until the ball is all bruised up good. Then I use a little force and see if any juice is ready. If there's a drop I go for a little more force. If no drop then more bruising. This usually works.

Almost never does smooshed up leaf come through the holes this method if I do it right. Maybe a few holes but not crazy smooshy.

 

[Lady Cannafan]

I use a garlic press. I ball a leaf up and place it in then press gently and take a wooden bbq skewer and turn the ball and press again. Maybe three or four times until the ball is all bruised up good. Then I use a little force and see if any juice is ready. If there's a drop I go for a little more force. If no drop then more bruising. This usually works.

Thanks! I'm currently trying to locate my garlic press, I don't use it much and I think my kitchen gadgets drawer swallowed it up.

 

[Gee64]

I appreciate all of this information going on from all of you, and thanks to @Carmen Ray asking the questions for me in advance.
I have the refractometer and the proper IR gun, so I'm going to finally give this a go as well. Garlic press try first, and if that doesn't do the job, a small pair of vice grips with a couple of quarters.

I see Azi got you guys all fixed up.

If you go the garlic press route it works best if you can drop a dime, or something similar, into the press before the leaf goes in. That will allow the sap to ooze out but not actually mash the leaf thru all the holes. Anything that will fit loosely into the press so the liquid can still come thru.

There are quite a few posts in Geespot about both VPD and brix over the last 3 weeks or so if you need any further info, and please ask if it doesn't make sense.

It all sounds complicated, but it's actually not if you ask if stuck. Brix is really easy if you put it into your LOS mix before planting, and VPD is pretty simple once you see it a couple times.

Here is a good summary on brix and how it works, but VPD is spread out over the last few weeks so I can't give you a direct link.

There are 2 different VPD's. One is known as room/air/atmospheric VPD, and one is leaf VPD. You want leaf VPD, which is also referred to as "rate of transpiration" and transpiration is what pulls food in at the roots as it pushes water and gases out the stomata.

VPD directly affects the state of the stomata, so if it's incorrect then not only can transpiration be affected, but carbon intake from the atmosphere is affected too, as CO2 comes in thru the stomata. Carbon is a big player in brix.

The difference in temperature between the leaf and the air is a huge factor in this, and when leaf temps get equal to or above air temps, the atmosphere will not be able to wick the transpiration away, so moisture builds up on the leaf, and stomata start to close.

Air temps can raise or lower tissue temps, but the difference between leaf temp and air temp is primarily controlled by light intensity. Light is radiation, and if a plant can't use all the light because it's too intense, the excess radiation causes resistence in the leaf tissue, and the leaf gets warmer but air temp does not.

Plants transpire best when leaves are 2 degrees F lower than air temps, so when light intensity is correct, you have a 2 degree offset.

As the root system gets larger the plant can handle more light, so VPD not only has the ability to control transpiration, it has the ability to match light intensity to the plants ability to use it. You can very accurately set light intensity with VPD. In fact, it's the only way you can set light intensity correctly. Just assigning an arbitrary number of PPFD's is like throwing a dart in the dark and hoping for a bullseye.

Because brix are a product of photosynthesis, and VPD directly effects the rate of photosynthesis, the 2 go hand in hand.

If you click the above link on brix, have a coffee in hand as it's a long post, but in an easy to understand manner.

You can achieve high brix with poor VPD, but it certainly is easier with correct VPD.

Once you understand VPD you will be able to adjust in any atmospheric conditions to keep your plant in a reasonable VPD zone, and that's all you need, just to be in the ballpark.

If VPD makes your plant transpire too fast, the roots can't keep up so a deficiency will occur even if there is enough food in the pot.

If you can match the rate of transpiration to the rate of photosynthesis you're golden. VPD allows you to do this.

 

[Lady Cannafan]

I see Azi got you guys all fixed up.

If you go the garlic press route it works best if you can drop a dime, or something similar, into the press before the leaf goes in. That will allow the sap to ooze out but not actually mash the leaf thru all the holes. Anything that will fit loosely into the press so the liquid can still come thru.

There are quite a few posts in Geespot about both VPD and brix over the last 3 weeks or so if you need any further info, and please ask if it doesn't make sense.

It all sounds complicated, but it's actually not if you ask if stuck. Brix is really easy if you put it into your LOS mix before planting, and VPD is pretty simple once you see it a couple times.

Here is a good summary on brix and how it works, but VPD is spread out over the last few weeks so I can't give you a direct link.

There are 2 different VPD's. One is known as room/air/atmospheric VPD, and one is leaf VPD. You want leaf VPD, which is also referred to as "rate of transpiration" and transpiration is what pulls food in at the roots as it pushes water and gases out the stomata.

VPD directly affects the state of the stomata, so if it's incorrect then not only can transpiration be affected, but carbon intake from the atmosphere is affected too, as CO2 comes in thru the stomata. Carbon is a big player in brix.

The difference in temperature between the leaf and the air is a huge factor in this, and when leaf temps get equal to or above air temps, the atmosphere will not be able to wick the transpiration away, so moisture builds up on the leaf, and stomata start to close.

Air temps can raise or lower tissue temps, but the difference between leaf temp and air temp is primarily controlled by light intensity. Light is radiation, and if a plant can't use all the light because it's too intense, the excess radiation causes resistence in the leaf tissue, and the leaf gets warmer but air temp does not.

Plants transpire best when leaves are 2 degrees F lower than air temps, so when light intensity is correct, you have a 2 degree offset.

As the root system gets larger the plant can handle more light, so VPD not only has the ability to control transpiration, it has the ability to match light intensity to the plants ability to use it. You can very accurately set light intensity with VPD. In fact, it's the only way you can set light intensity correctly. Just assigning an arbitrary number of PPFD's is like throwing a dart in the dark and hoping for a bullseye.

Because brix are a product of photosynthesis, and VPD directly effects the rate of photosynthesis, the 2 go hand in hand.

If you click the above link on brix, have a coffee in hand as it's a long post, but in an easy to understand manner.

You can achieve high brix with poor VPD, but it certainly is easier with correct VPD.

Once you understand VPD you will be able to adjust in any atmospheric conditions to keep your plant in a reasonable VPD zone, and that's all you need, just to be in the ballpark.

If VPD makes your plant transpire too fast, the roots can't keep up so a deficiency will occur even if there is enough food in the pot.

If you can match the rate of transpiration to the rate of photosynthesis you're golden. VPD allows you to do this.

Thanks Gee! The link isn't working. Says 404 error. Can you try that again?

 

[Gee64]

Sorry, it worked in preview mode. It's fixed now. You may need to refresh the page.

 

[Lady Cannafan]

Sorry, it worked in preview mode. It's fixed now. You may need to refresh the page.

Works great now. Thank you.

 

[InTheShed]

Happy New Year Carmen! My contrary advice on VPD is to not bother spending money on the equipment needed to measure it until you're in a position to actually control it. Otherwise it's gadgets just to tell you how far off you are.

 

[Gee64]

Happy New Year Carmen! My contrary advice on VPD is to not bother spending money on the equipment needed to measure it until you're in a position to actually control it. Otherwise it's gadgets just to tell you how far off you are.

I agree to some degree, but knowing how leaf temp compares to air temp can still help with carbon intake, however a refractometer to see brix and calcium is probably money better spent if your budget is tight. If brix are up then carbon intake is in the ballpark.

 

[g-one-three]

I agree to some degree, but knowing how leaf temp compares to air temp can still help with carbon intake, however a refractometer to see brix and calcium is probably money better spent if your budget is tight. If brix are up then carbon intake is in the ballpark.

This is the way I did it. Refractometer before a IR gun, the refractometer gives you a solid idea of how healthy your plant is and the IR helps take all that health and optimize it.

Honestly though @Carmen Ray the fact that your plants haven't had any sort of bug issue makes me think your already running high Brix soil. Your system has been successful and repeatable as we've seen through your journals. I just think an unfortunate roll of the genetic dice is the problem lately. All these gadgets are great and helpful at fine tuning things but it starts with the grower and your a pretty dang good one. So don't stress too much on whether you need or can get these tools, you'll be growing good green with or without them.

PS if you want to be able to crack walnuts with your hands by next Christmas, use the vice grips and two quarters lol

 

[KeithLemon]

Hi Carmen, I am late but if you do not mind, I will tag along.

 

[Gee64]

This is the way I did it. Refractometer before a IR gun, the refractometer gives you a solid idea of how healthy your plant is and the IR helps take all that health and optimize it.

Couldn't have said it better, Thanks G

Honestly though @Carmen Ray the fact that your plants haven't had any sort of bug issue makes me think your already running high Brix soil.

I totally agree, but seeing a calcium deficiency the day it starts, not 2 weeks later has value. Especially with autos, so I would get the refractometer 1st.

Your system has been successful and repeatable as we've seen through your journals. I just think an unfortunate roll of the genetic dice is the problem lately.

That too is a real possibility. I remember when autos 1st came out people called them lowriders because they were small.

All these gadgets are great and helpful at fine tuning things but it starts with the grower and your a pretty dang good one. So don't stress too much on whether you need or can get these tools, you'll be growing good green with or without them.

More truth

PS if you want to be able to crack walnuts with your hands by next Christmas, use the vice grips and two quarters lol

Carmen, I don't grow auto's but a friend told me that if you lower ppfd and go 20/4 to reach your dli target you will get bigger plants. He lives 500 miles away so I haven't seen his auto's, but he's been growing for 50 years, so there may be something there. Maybe use a DLI calculator to see what that would give you for a pofd reading?

 

[Carmen Ray]

They will tell you two of the three readings for VPD and the IR gun gives you the third.

Thank you.

I appreciate all of this information going on from all of you, and thanks to @Carmen Ray asking the questions for me in advance.
I have the refractometer and the proper IR gun, so I'm going to finally give this a go as well. Garlic press try first, and if that doesn't do the job, a small pair of vice grips with a couple of quarters.

Garlic press = #genius

I use a garlic press. I ball a leaf up and place it in then press gently and take a wooden bbq skewer and turn the ball and press again. Maybe three or four times until the ball is all bruised up good. Then I use a little force and see if any juice is ready. If there's a drop I go for a little more force. If no drop then more bruising. This usually works.

Almost never does smooshed up leaf come through the holes this method if I do it right. Maybe a few holes but not crazy smooshy.

Thanks!

I see Azi got you guys all fixed up.

If you go the garlic press route it works best if you can drop a dime, or something similar, into the press before the leaf goes in. That will allow the sap to ooze out but not actually mash the leaf thru all the holes. Anything that will fit loosely into the press so the liquid can still come thru.

There are quite a few posts in Geespot about both VPD and brix over the last 3 weeks or so if you need any further info, and please ask if it doesn't make sense.

It all sounds complicated, but it's actually not if you ask if stuck. Brix is really easy if you put it into your LOS mix before planting, and VPD is pretty simple once you see it a couple times.

Here is a good summary on brix and how it works, but VPD is spread out over the last few weeks so I can't give you a direct link.

There are 2 different VPD's. One is known as room/air/atmospheric VPD, and one is leaf VPD. You want leaf VPD, which is also referred to as "rate of transpiration" and transpiration is what pulls food in at the roots as it pushes water and gases out the stomata.

VPD directly affects the state of the stomata, so if it's incorrect then not only can transpiration be affected, but carbon intake from the atmosphere is affected too, as CO2 comes in thru the stomata. Carbon is a big player in brix.

The difference in temperature between the leaf and the air is a huge factor in this, and when leaf temps get equal to or above air temps, the atmosphere will not be able to wick the transpiration away, so moisture builds up on the leaf, and stomata start to close.

Air temps can raise or lower tissue temps, but the difference between leaf temp and air temp is primarily controlled by light intensity. Light is radiation, and if a plant can't use all the light because it's too intense, the excess radiation causes resistence in the leaf tissue, and the leaf gets warmer but air temp does not.

Plants transpire best when leaves are 2 degrees F lower than air temps, so when light intensity is correct, you have a 2 degree offset.

As the root system gets larger the plant can handle more light, so VPD not only has the ability to control transpiration, it has the ability to match light intensity to the plants ability to use it. You can very accurately set light intensity with VPD. In fact, it's the only way you can set light intensity correctly. Just assigning an arbitrary number of PPFD's is like throwing a dart in the dark and hoping for a bullseye.

Because brix are a product of photosynthesis, and VPD directly effects the rate of photosynthesis, the 2 go hand in hand.

If you click the above link on brix, have a coffee in hand as it's a long post, but in an easy to understand manner.

You can achieve high brix with poor VPD, but it certainly is easier with correct VPD.

Once you understand VPD you will be able to adjust in any atmospheric conditions to keep your plant in a reasonable VPD zone, and that's all you need, just to be in the ballpark.

If VPD makes your plant transpire too fast, the roots can't keep up so a deficiency will occur even if there is enough food in the pot.

If you can match the rate of transpiration to the rate of photosynthesis you're golden. VPD allows you to do this.

This is all very good to bear in mind, but I don't have the money to spend on gadgets atm. I tend to feel the same as Shed.

Happy New Year Carmen! My contrary advice on VPD is to not bother spending money on the equipment needed to measure it until you're in a position to actually control it. Otherwise it's gadgets just to tell you how far off you are.

Happy new year, Shed! I tend to agree. I'm not going to buy anymore gadgets at the mo.

I agree to some degree, but knowing how leaf temp compares to air temp can still help with carbon intake, however a refractometer to see brix and calcium is probably money better spent if your budget is tight. If brix are up then carbon intake is in the ballpark.

Ok, I would have bought the IR gun first, so good to know.

This is the way I did it. Refractometer before a IR gun, the refractometer gives you a solid idea of how healthy your plant is and the IR helps take all that health and optimize it.

Honestly though @Carmen Ray the fact that your plants haven't had any sort of bug issue makes me think your already running high Brix soil. Your system has been successful and repeatable as we've seen through your journals. I just think an unfortunate roll of the genetic dice is the problem lately. All these gadgets are great and helpful at fine tuning things but it starts with the grower and your a pretty dang good one. So don't stress too much on whether you need or can get these tools, you'll be growing good green with or without them.

Thank you G!

PS if you want to be able to crack walnuts with your hands by next Christmas, use the vice grips and two quarters lol

lmao!

Hi Carmen, I am late but if you do not mind, I will tag along.

Welcome Keith! It's lovely to see you. I'm excited to watch your first indoor auto grow!

Couldn't have said it better, Thanks G

I totally agree, but seeing a calcium deficiency the day it starts, not 2 weeks later has value. Especially with autos, so I would get the refractometer 1st.

I will get one eventually but for now I am counting on the notion that my soil is high brix.

That too is a real possibility. I remember when autos 1st came out people called them lowriders because they were small.

More truth

Carmen, I don't grow auto's but a friend told me that if you lower ppfd and go 20/4 to reach your dli target you will get bigger plants.

Hmmmm. I'd love to talk to him and ask questions.

DLI is the daily light integral, i.e. the amount of usable light hitting the plants every 24 hours. This table shows the optimal light required for good growth of an autoflowering plant. (reference missing)
Clones/Seedlings​	0 - 100 PPFD​
Early Vegetative Stage​	150 - 400 PPFD​
Late Veg/Pre-Flower​	350 - 500 PPFD​
Flowering Stage​	400 - 800 PPFD​
Flowering with CO2​	600 - 1100 PPFD​

Gee I can't see it. I'd have to have my ppfd set at 500 for 24 hours of light to make a DLI of 45. I can't see how that is going to grow big plants. I just can't see it.

He lives 500 miles away so I haven't seen his auto's, but he's been growing for 50 years, so there may be something there. Maybe use a DLI calculator to see what that would give you for a pofd reading?

Ask him for photos and yield figures please.

 

[Gee64]

Thank you.

Garlic press = #genius

Thanks!

This is all very good to bear in mind, but I don't have the money to spend on gadgets atm. I tend to feel the same as Shed.

Happy new year, Shed! I tend to agree. I'm not going to buy anymore gadgets at the mo.

Ok, I would have bought the IR gun first, so good to know.

Thank you G!

lmao!

Welcome Keith! It's lovely to see you. I'm excited to watch your first indoor auto grow!

I will get one eventually but for now I am counting on the notion that my soil is high brix.

Hmmmm. I'd love to talk to him and ask questions.

DLI is the daily light integral, i.e. the amount of usable light hitting the plants every 24 hours. This table shows the optimal light required for good growth of an autoflowering plant. (reference missing)
Clones/Seedlings​	0 - 100 PPFD​
Early Vegetative Stage​	150 - 400 PPFD​
Late Veg/Pre-Flower​	350 - 500 PPFD​
Flowering Stage​	400 - 800 PPFD​
Flowering with CO2​	600 - 1100 PPFD​

Gee I can't see it. I'd have to have my ppfd set at 500 for 24 hours of light to make a DLI of 45. I can't see how that is going to grow big plants. I just can't see it.


Ask him for photos and yield figures please.

He uses 20 hour days.

Here's what the calculator says, so I guess it may actually make sense... maybe....

He uses synthetics and grows lots of popcorn. Lol photos, your funny. He still thinks the FBI or CSIS is bugging his phone. Actual photos will never happen. I bet if you googled it you would find some data on it tho.

 

[JiggiLotus]

Lol photos, your funny. He still thinks the FBI or CSIS is bugging his phone. Actual photos will never happen. I bet if you googled it you would find some data on it tho.

gotta love them batshit crazy friends