Carmen And Tassie Compare Notes: Big Angel And Super Mazar Autos

[InTheShed]

@InTheShed what ppfd do you keep your autos under in their different stages of growth, since you are keeping them at 24/0?

Right now in the early stage of stacking it's around 340 PPFD (29 DLI) if calibrated phone apps are to be believed. I'll be lowering the light over the next few days to bump that up closer to 400 PPFD (35 DLI) until it's done stacking, and then increase the lux again for bulking.

All this assuming the leaves don't complain about the increases.

 

[Roy Growin]

Thank you. In winter the heat from the light is helpful but in summer it can get quite hot. Hmmm.

I don't know. I don't think I understand the light relationship enough to make a call. I need guidance.

My concern is that if I go lower than 800 will I kill yield with too little light? If we look at this chart again, the range is wide.

Clones/Seedlings​	0 - 100 PPFD​
Early Vegetative Stage​	150 - 400 PPFD​
Late Veg/Pre-Flower​	350 - 500 PPFD​
Flowering Stage​	400 - 800 PPFD​
Flowering with CO2​	600 - 1100 PPFD​

@InTheShed what ppfd do you keep your autos under in their different stages of growth, since you are keeping them at 24/0?

It is indeed.

I wish I had your SEO brain for my product listings!

Amazing right!

Interesting, you might be onto something.

They do good SEO

This I have to read. Thank you!

Show me a product or page you want to promote

 

[Carmen Ray]

Right now in the early stage of stacking it's around 340 PPFD (29 DLI) if calibrated phone apps are to be believed. I'll be lowering the light over the next few days to bump that up closer to 400 PPFD (35 DLI) until it's done stacking, and then increase the lux again for bulking.

All this assuming the leaves don't complain about the increases.

Thank you. So are you adhering to the DLI? What is the highest you'll go with lux? If I got to 500 ppfd in 24 hours I am already over DLI. Is that enough lux to bulk the bud or do I ignore DLI and keep it higher?

Show me a product or page you want to promote

Thank you Roy. I'll send you a pm.

 

[InTheShed]

Thank you. So are you adhering to the DLI? What is the highest you'll go with lux? If I got to 500 ppfd in 24 hours I am already over DLI. Is that enough lux to bulk the bud or do I ignore DLI and keep it higher?

I try to get close to that auto chart but my leaves often complain (might be the bar light vs something with a more even spread). I doubt I'll get to 40 DLI but I'll try again this year.

I'm not tracking lux since I'm measuring DLI, except to see if the app matches my lux meter.

 

[Carmen Ray]

I try to get close to that auto chart but my leaves often complain (might be the bar light vs something with a more even spread). I doubt I'll get to 40 DLI but I'll try again this year.

I'm not tracking lux since I'm measuring DLI, except to see if the app matches my lux meter.

I'm so confused by Grow Lighting 101. I thought that tracking lux was a way to manage DLI. I guess I have to experiment with a lower lux and longer hours and see what happens. I just wish I had a better sense of it all.

Right now in the early stage of stacking it's around 340 PPFD (29 DLI) if calibrated phone apps are to be believed. I'll be lowering the light over the next few days to bump that up closer to 400 PPFD (35 DLI) until it's done stacking, and then increase the lux again for bulking.

What's your average?

All this assuming the leaves don't complain about the increases.

Ok. Thanks Shed.

 

[InTheShed]

I'm so confused by Grow Lighting 101. I thought that tracking lux was a way to manage DLI. I guess I have to experiment with a lower lux and longer hours and see what happens. I just wish I had a better sense of it all.

Tracking lux would mean you would need to find a lux-to-PPFD calculator based on the color temp of the light, and then you would need another calculator to convert the PPFD to DLI over the hours of light per day you're providing. Much easier to track DLI directly if your app does that.

Remember the basics are that lux measures brightness, PPFD measures light the plant can use, and DLI measures PPFD over a 24 hour period. So my app is multiplying the PPFD x 24 (the hours of light mine get), but if I were running 20/4 it would be multiplying PPFD x 20.

To hit the same DLI over a 24 hour period with 20 hours of light I would need higher PPFD to compensate for the loss of 4 hours of light each day.

What's your average?

No idea. I don't actually chart any of it.

 

[Carmen Ray]

Tracking lux would mean you would need to find a lux-to-PPFD calculator based on the color temp of the light, and then you would need another calculator to convert the PPFD to DLI over the hours of light per day you're providing. Much easier to track DLI directly if your app does that.

Gosh! Ok thanks.

Remember the basics are that lux measures brightness, PPFD measures light the plant can use, and DLI measures PPFD over a 24 hour period. So my app is multiplying the PPFD x 24 (the hours of light mine get), but if I were running 20/4 it would be multiplying PPFD x 20.

Ok fantastic. I have set my app to multiply over 24 hours and for a DLI of 45, the ppfd happens to be 550. I hope that's enough to bulk the bud.

To hit the same DLI over a 24 hour period with 20 hours of light I would need higher PPFD to compensate for the loss of 4 hours of light each day.

No idea. I don't actually chart any of it.

Ok thank you.

 

[InTheShed]

I hope that's enough to bulk the bud.

45 DLI is the max recommended for autos according to that chart so you shouldn't need more than that. In terms of PPFD, you'd only need it higher if you cut your light hours.

 

[Carmen Ray]

Weekly Update: Week 9

Thank you all for the very useful discussion about light. I have reduced the light intensity to 50% in order to bring it into the correct range which is 45 DLI. This happens to be at PPFD 550. The light will now remain on 24/0. I'll reduce the DLI towards the end of flower, in line with the charts.

I fed the plant its 2 weekly dose of Nourish and continue to alternate between fish water and kelp water on a daily basis. I have no problems and let's hope it stays that way.

Have a great weekend!

 

[Carmen Ray]

If you were to make your day longer but reduce light intensity you would almost assuredly not have warm leaves because of the reduced ppfd. Transpiration would be slower but last longer to achieve the same amount in the end.

Hey Gee, I've copied this from Otter's thread. Do you think I should turn off the fan now that I've turned the lights down so much? It's 25 C in the room and 52 % RH. I have the light 30 cm from the plant and it is low at 50 % intensity and half the ppfd than before.

 

[Gee64]

Hey Gee, I've copied this from Otter's thread. Do you think I should turn off the fan now that I've turned the lights down so much? It's 25 C in the room and 52 % RH. I have the light 30 cm from the plant and it is low at 50 % intensity and half the ppfd than before.

That's up to you, but if you can't measure changes you are kind of flying in the dark. I would leave everything else the same and only make 1 change at a time. What does your new PPFD reading say when converted to DLI with the new light schedule. I would leave the fan and only change DLI to see what happens.

I will be honest here, I have no idea what will occur. I only suggested the longer day because my buddy did it and says he saw a better outcome. It was more of a suggestion for you to do research on, but I DO love a good experiment

 

[StoneOtter]

It all makes sense to me Carmen. Math works most times and this time seems sensible. Light over time is what we do here. You just spread light a little more than we usually see. You and InTheShed.

 

[Gee64]

I find 24/0 a bit worrisome TBH. Weed can survive at 24/0, as can almost all plants, but respiration is much more efficient than photorespiration, so a dark period reduces stress.

When plants are forced to photorespire then photosynthesis gets compromised. You do however make up the loss with added hours, you just get more stress is all.

Sometimes, like in Shed's situation of cold temps, the pro's outweigh the cons, as it sounds like he needs the warmth more than the negative of added stresses. Give and take.

But if you can safely avoid 24/0 your plant will encounter less stress.

It would be interesting to see it in a side-by-side with clones and monitor the brix of each.

What cannabis plants do have is a natural circadian rhythm that oddly enough matches a humans endocannabinoid system's natural circadian rhythm, and breaking weeds circadian rhythm effects terpene production, and in humans breaking the rhythm effects the health of CB-1 receptors and the enzymes our body uses to control synthesis and breakdown of endocannabinoids, so you could be upsetting the balance of your buzz or medical effects too.

Sometimes that is actually better tho, as it changes the entourage effect, so it isn't nescessarily bad.

24/0 breaks her circadian rhythm. For better or for worse is in the individual.

 

[4our8ighty0]

I find 24/0 a bit worrisome TBH. Weed can survive at 24/0, as can almost all plants, but respiration is much more efficient than photorespiration, so a dark period reduces stress.

When plants are forced to photorespire then photosynthesis gets compromised. You do however make up the loss with added hours, you just get more stress is all.

Sometimes, like in Shed's situation of cold temps, the pro's outweigh the cons, as it sounds like he needs the warmth more than the negative of added stresses. Give and take.

But if you can safely avoid 24/0 your plant will encounter less stress.

It would be interesting to see it in a side-by-side with clones and monitor the brix of each.

What cannabis plants do have is a natural circadian rhythm that oddly enough matches a humans endocannabinoid system's natural circadian rhythm, and breaking weeds circadian rhythm effects terpene production, and in humans breaking the rhythm effects the health of CB-1 receptors and the enzymes our body uses to control synthesis and breakdown of endocannabinoids, so you could be upsetting the balance of your buzz or medical effects too.

Sometimes that is actually better tho, as it changes the entourage effect, so it isn't nescessarily bad.

24/0 breaks her circadian rhythm. For better or for worse is in the individual.

Yes I have not seen many negatives to 24/0 but my gut tells me it's not the optimal state for the plants,but I also don't see any real difference in 18/6 20/4 and 24/0 in terms of positive or negative effects. I just can't see it ya know logic is logic ? How can it be doing anything as efficiently as possible is it never has a nite cycle ? Means it has to do all the night work while doing day work,do y'all know of any comparisons of the light cycles ? For autos ofc

 

[JiggiLotus]

wait !! so on that note, with the luxing an fluxing...
so, my bestest auto was under 20/4 after it got outta the babystage, at the seedling era it was a high watt blurple grow bulb, then i stuck it under a 1000w vivosun for 20/4 and she loved it!
while growing the photos, i set the lights to that of what the photos prefer, and it actually weakened the autos, they produced less and other things like stunted growth, early flowering (tiny bud syndrome). so you can treat a photo like an auto but you cant treat an auto like a photo. lol.

 

[Carmen Ray]

That's up to you, but if you can't measure changes you are kind of flying in the dark. I would leave everything else the same and only make 1 change at a time. What does your new PPFD reading say when converted to DLI with the new light schedule. I would leave the fan and only change DLI to see what happens.

550 ppfd down from 1000 yesterday.

I will be honest here, I have no idea what will occur. I only suggested the longer day because my buddy did it and says he saw a better outcome. It was more of a suggestion for you to do research on, but I DO love a good experiment

This is an experiment that has played out reasonably successfully in several of my grows. I am too lazy to go digging for photos that are not on the C drive, but my biggest plants were grown at 24/0, albeit with some calmag issues.

It all makes sense to me Carmen. Math works most times and this time seems sensible. Light over time is what we do here. You just spread light a little more than we usually see. You and InTheShed.

Thank you Otter.

I find 24/0 a bit worrisome TBH. Weed can survive at 24/0, as can almost all plants, but respiration is much more efficient than photorespiration, so a dark period reduces stress.

Let's see if I grow the plants at a lower ppfd with perpetual light if I can get big plants without compromising quality / brix (oops I need a refractometer and garlic press pronto).
What does a C3 categorization mean for Cannabis and respiration / photorespiration?

When plants are forced to photorespire then photosynthesis gets compromised. You do however make up the loss with added hours, you just get more stress is all.

Ok so I feel confident enough from previous results, to try this again only slightly differently.

Sometimes, like in Shed's situation of cold temps, the pro's outweigh the cons, as it sounds like he needs the warmth more than the negative of added stresses. Give and take.

But if you can safely avoid 24/0 your plant will encounter less stress.

I may revert to 18/6, after all King @Jon does pretty well for himself

It would be interesting to see it in a side-by-side with clones and monitor the brix of each.

Yeah but then they wouldn't be autos lol, or the likelihood would be slim

What cannabis plants do have is a natural circadian rhythm that oddly enough matches a humans endocannabinoid system's natural circadian rhythm, and breaking weeds circadian rhythm effects terpene production, and in humans breaking the rhythm effects the health of CB-1 receptors and the enzymes our body uses to control synthesis and breakdown of endocannabinoids, so you could be upsetting the balance of your buzz or medical effects too.

It's all pretty hit and miss unless you are growing landraces I reckon.

Sometimes that is actually better tho, as it changes the entourage effect, so it isn't nescessarily bad.

24/0 breaks her circadian rhythm. For better or for worse is in the individual.

Let's see. I'll test it with my next grow of Cosmic Cookies and OG Kush by Smiley Seeds. The real test will be the Butterbean Birdseed if it gets here! @con has been growing those big beauties at 700ish ppfd for 20/4, which is 50ish DLI, if I am remembering correctly. I must double check.

How can it be doing anything as efficiently as possible is it never has a nite cycle ?

I think because it is a C3 plant. I still have to read Shed's reference article on the C3 plants. I must do it today!

 

[Gee64]

wait !! so on that note, with the luxing an fluxing...
so, my bestest auto was under 20/4 after it got outta the babystage, at the seedling era it was a high watt blurple grow bulb, then i stuck it under a 1000w vivosun for 20/4 and she loved it!
while growing the photos, i set the lights to that of what the photos prefer, and it actually weakened the autos, they produced less and other things like stunted growth, early flowering (tiny bud syndrome). so you can treat a photo like an auto but you cant treat an auto like a photo. lol.

Hey Jiggi, long time no see. I hope life is good. That's pretty much exactly what my buddy said, so thete may be something to it.

 

[Carmen Ray]

wait !! so on that note, with the luxing an fluxing...
so, my bestest auto was under 20/4 after it got outta the babystage, at the seedling era it was a high watt blurple grow bulb, then i stuck it under a 1000w vivosun for 20/4 and she loved it!
while growing the photos, i set the lights to that of what the photos prefer, and it actually weakened the autos, they produced less and other things like stunted growth, early flowering (tiny bud syndrome). so you can treat a photo like an auto but you cant treat an auto like a photo. lol.

Thank you for this info Jiggi ! We should possibly blog charted comparative auto grows and see if we can make sense of all this experimentation.

 

[Gee64]

Thank you for this info Jiggi ! We should possibly blog charted comparative auto grows and see if we can make sense of all this experimentation.

Thats an awesome idea

 

[con]

550 ppfd down from 1000 yesterday.

This is an experiment that has played out reasonably successfully in several of my grows. I am too lazy to go digging for photos that are not on the C drive, but my biggest plants were grown at 24/0, albeit with some calmag issues.

Thank you Otter.

Let's see if I grow the plants at a lower ppfd with perpetual light if I can get big plants without compromising quality / brix (oops I need a refractometer and garlic press pronto).
What does a C3 categorization mean for Cannabis and respiration / photorespiration?

Ok so I feel confident enough from previous results, to try this again only slightly differently.

I may revert to 18/6, after all King @Jon does pretty well for himself

Yeah but then they wouldn't be autos lol, or the likelihood would be slim

It's all pretty hit and miss unless you are growing landraces I reckon.

Let's see. I'll test it with my next grow of Cosmic Cookies and OG Kush by Smiley Seeds. The real test will be the Butterbean Birdseed if it gets here! @con has been growing those big beauties at 700ish ppfd for 20/4, which is 50ish DLI, if I am remembering correctly. I must double check.


I think because it is a C3 plant. I still have to read Shed's reference article on the C3 plants. I must do it today!

Let's see. I'll test it with my next grow of Cosmic Cookies and OG Kush by Smiley Seeds. The real test will be the Butterbean Birdseed if it gets here! @con has been growing those big beauties at 700ish ppfd for 20/4, which is 50ish DLI, if I am remembering correctly. I must double check.

Hi Carmen i run 18/6 i was running 20/4 in the 5x5 at first to compensate for the sunrise sunset feature on my light but backed off to 18/6 & i don't think i'll use the sunset/rise setting on my new grow i didn't see any difference using it so 18/6 it is & when i get to full blown flower my plants seem to suffer with any thing over 730 PPFD my tallest buds where at 900+ PPFD & had to bend them over to reduce PPFD started to see foxtailing from light stress but stopped after i lowered them i think you'll be best at 18/6, @730 PPFD at 18 hours gives me 47 DLI, at the seedling stage i like 200 then slowly ramp up to 400 PPFD when it gets into early veg to late veg then slowly ramp up to 650-680 PPFD & when into mid to full flowering i bump up to 730 PPFD