Autos v. Photos - A 5x5 No Rules Fight for Yield: A Jon & NickHardy Gig

[Jon]

Nice tent Jon You know I have a happy spot for the Apple Fritter and someday I will grow another one they are beautiful looking plants.

Thanks Keith, I agree. I’ve done a lot better on this one. She’s not the easiest plant to grow indoors. I’d call her at least an intermediate level plant. She’s finicky indoors with feeding and easily burned. Also easily foxtailed, as I have immensely on this one, but they don’t bother me as much as burning. She’ll be great though and a ton of bud.

 

[Jon]

Thanks Bill and Nick! I'd hate to have something like that. What a nightmare.


This is a great looking idea. What is this stuff called. I wonder if I can get hold of it here.

Hey @Carmen Ray - I found this on a quick search at Home Depot. They make various types of the silver reflective part. Some are dull like this, some are exactly like what Nick showed. Just gotta go look. But this will give you the idea. 12 @2’x4’ for $111 is enough to insulate a space easily!

SilveRboard 1 in. x 2 ft. x 48 in. R5 Radiant Acoustic Insulation Kit - STC 19 (12 sheets) - 96 sq. ft. SB12AKIT - The Home Depot

SilveRboard Acoustic Rigid Foam Insulation kit - 12 sheets - coverage 96 sq.ft - is a high performance flat-sheet insulation material made from Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) which is coated with a layer of reflective film laminated on both sides. This highly effective combination of materials...

www.homedepot.com

 

[Jon]

Hey @Carmen Ray - I found this on a quick search at Home Depot. They make various types of the silver reflective part. Some are dull like this, some are exactly like what Nick showed. Just gotta go look. But this will give you the idea. 12 @2’x4’ for $111 is enough to insulate a space easily!

SilveRboard 1 in. x 2 ft. x 48 in. R5 Radiant Acoustic Insulation Kit - STC 19 (12 sheets) - 96 sq. ft. SB12AKIT - The Home Depot

SilveRboard Acoustic Rigid Foam Insulation kit - 12 sheets - coverage 96 sq.ft - is a high performance flat-sheet insulation material made from Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) which is coated with a layer of reflective film laminated on both sides. This highly effective combination of materials...

www.homedepot.com

Also, consider that if you’re going to grow autos, it isn’t as if it has to be perfectly light sealed or anything. Easy Peasy. Betcha these panels could function as the walls themselves with minimal support if you duct taped it together.

 

[Jon]

Also, consider that if you’re going to grow autos, it isn’t as if it has to be perfectly light sealed or anything. Easy Peasy. Betcha these panels could function as the walls themselves with minimal support if you duct taped it together.

Last thing. It’s kind of a PITA to make something like this when you can get a brand new 3x3 for less than $100 easily. I have two that fit that description. I go cheap on the small tents.

 

[Jon]

Phew! Finally got all the garbage out of the tent and set it up proper for the finish. We have four left to harvest with the two Gorilla Cookies both hanging. The three together are all days away but despite their dark colors still have tons of half filled trichs at the moment. They look ready but they’re not. And the Apple Monster, I mean Fritter, will bring up the rear. She has a ways to go and is a long long auto.

Here’s the new digs, from both sides of the tent.

Forgot to mention: I canned the side lights at this point. The three soon to harvest are all basically done, just waiting on trichs to turn. So light at this point is irrelevant to them. This is why I placed them as far out of center as I could. More space for the AF. The AF therefore is basically one plant under 680 watts without the side lighting. It’s so far more than enough it’s silly.

 

[CaptainLucky]

Thanks Keith, I agree. I’ve done a lot better on this one. She’s not the easiest plant to grow indoors. I’d call her at least an intermediate level plant. She’s finicky indoors with feeding and easily burned. Also easily foxtailed, as I have immensely on this one, but they don’t bother me as much as burning. She’ll be great though and a ton of bud.

What do you think could have caused the foxtails? Too powerful light? CL

 

[Carmen Ray]

Also, consider that if you’re going to grow autos, it isn’t as if it has to be perfectly light sealed or anything. Easy Peasy. Betcha these panels could function as the walls themselves with minimal support if you duct taped it together.

Last thing. It’s kind of a PITA to make something like this when you can get a brand new 3x3 for less than $100 easily. I have two that fit that description. I go cheap on the small tents.

This is kind of it in a nutshell, thank Jon! -

Autos v. Photos - A 5x5 No Rules Fight for Yield: A Jon & NickHardy Gig

https://www.420magazine.com/community/threads/nick-hardy-co-the-last-dance.539859/page-11#post-5965872 Anyone who wants to barely understand the legality of growing here (I live here and I’m struggling!) Anyway read that! need more info on this because I was going to build my "tent" out of...

www.420magazine.com

 

[NickHardy]

Hoooow aaaam I gonna looose so baaad!
Moby
Play, 1999

Tent looks even more boss now you can finish just those last there.

Also - yeah Jon’s right on the panels - for us doing a room with 10ft ceilings the rolls just cheaper. Panels aren’t much more though.

When we did the room the builders bought the same stuff but with 4” of rock wool attached.

Lets say a communication error of note. Because thee room is only 237c’ wide the lights are 105cm wide - we had to cut our 240cm (8x4 tent down to make it di - so losing 8” to rockwool just wasn’t an option.

Guess what?

I’m probably buying s roll of it now though.

So we’re going to try grow in 6x6x6 inch (15x15x15cm) rock wool cubes. Grodans.

Its about 2.7 litres - 0.7 gallon or something.

So what a lot of the big commercial grows do is they buy “GrowTray” made out of ling strips of rookwool.

When they move their veg plants to flower - they roll out the strips, cut 6” squares in the plastic wrapper and just plonk them on top. Double the "pot or way more!) with no transplant stress.

So yeah - 4” rockwool insulation - that would fill that function (it will need drenching in nutes) and is dead cheap.

Nick.

 

[Jon]

What do you think could have caused the foxtails? Too powerful light? CL

Yup. For sure. Definitely not environmental. It’s the price you pay when you are:
A. The kind of idiot who insists on pushing light too much without CO2
B. Growing several strains under the same light setup and attempting to find the hottest sweet spot they can all live with.

Foxtails add yield. They actually do. Don’t bother me none. It’s cosmetic. And 90% won’t be that way after breakdown, only the very tops. Big deal.

 

[Jon]

Tent looks even more boss now you can finish just those last there.

Also - yeah Jon’s right on the panels - for us doing a room with 10ft ceilings the rolls just cheaper. Panels aren’t much more though.

When we did the room the builders bought the same stuff but with 4” of rock wool attached.

Lets say a communication error of note. Because thee room is only 237c’ wide the lights are 105cm wide - we had to cut our 240cm (8x4 tent down to make it di - so losing 8” to rockwool just wasn’t an option.

Guess what?

I’m probably buying s roll of it now though.

So we’re going to try grow in 6x6x6 inch (15x15x15cm) rock wool cubes. Grodans.

Its about 2.7 litres - 0.7 gallon or something.

So what a lot of the big commercial grows do is they buy “GrowTray” made out of ling strips of rookwool.

When they move their veg plants to flower - they roll pu the strips, cut 6” squares in the plastic wrapper and just plonk them on top. Double the ot with no transplant stress.

So yeah - 4” rockwool insulation - that eould fill that function (it will need drenching in nutes) and is dead cheap.

Nick.

Question: that sounds kinda like replacing Solos that you are now not allowed to use (lol) with essentially the same thing, isn’t it? My friend, have I shown you nothing for over 100 pages? I sincerely believe you can yield a million times better if you were to focus on large pots, large plants, and training. Your roots can only support X bud. It’s quite directly proportional. In this and the setup you just described, how in the world would you ever build enough roots to actually yield? It’s impossible. Good for a Solo and good yield is two different things.

Just my two cents mi amigo.

 

[Jon]

Question: that sounds kinda like replacing Solos that you are now not allowed to use (lol) with essentially the same thing, isn’t it? My friend, have I shown you nothing for over 100 pages? I sincerely believe you can yield a million times better if you were to focus on large pots, large plants, and training. Your roots can only support X bud. It’s quite directly proportional. In this and the setup you just described, how in the world would you ever build enough roots to actually yield? It’s impossible. Good for a Solo and good yield is two different things.

Just my two cents mi amigo.

One more point via example Nick: my very first coco plant was grown with @Bill284 directing me step by step. He’s such a peach. But although he tried to tell me about the growth rate and size difference, I was like yeah yeah yeah, just tell me how to do it. Lmao! S I started outdoors, in a pot of coco, with a Blueberry, Dos Si Dos, and one other photo I forget. But all three were in 3 gallon pots.

All three got so incredibly large that I had to move them to the big tent to finish cuz I couldn’t move them around anymore. With my light as high as it goes (almost 8 feet) and the plants in the floor, all three had to be tied down by feet. Not inches. Feet. And those three plants yielded over two pounds of finished bud.

Even in soil a three gallon pot can produce. Witness my Skywalker and Cherry Pie. Both in 3s of soil. Like those buds? How about your space filled with 3s that looked just like those instead of Solos or whatever. I spent minimal time anmd effort on those two plants.

And train them. Try it once that way and you’ll never use solos again. Only big pots. Betcha a million bucks, so to speak. Especially if you grew all the same strain and did a huge huge scrog. There’s a REAL challenge. Scrog your entire grow space.

 

[CaptainLucky]

Question: that sounds kinda like replacing Solos that you are now not allowed to use (lol) with essentially the same thing, isn’t it? My friend, have I shown you nothing for over 100 pages? I sincerely believe you can yield a million times better if you were to focus on large pots, large plants, and training. Your roots can only support X bud. It’s quite directly proportional. In this and the setup you just described, how in the world would you ever build enough roots to actually yield? It’s impossible. Good for a Solo and good yield is two different things.

Just my two cents mi amigo.

I have never grown in that small of a space but I would think you could increase your yield. Couldn’t say definitely without trying to though. CL

 

[Jon]

I have never grown in that small of a space but I would think you could increase your yield. Couldn’t say definitely without trying to though. CL

Increase, yes. Beat by an ocean doing it a different way? Absolutely without question. Imho.

 

[Jon]

I have never grown in that small of a space but I would think you could increase your yield. Couldn’t say definitely without trying to though. CL

It really is the discussion of this concept that has value, not my particular suggestion. Lots of folks do something on the scale of Nick. I almost will be soon. This discussion is helpful for a lot of folks to gain and offer perspective if they like. I’m not saying I’m right about anything, just to be clear. Just that my opinion is X and I believe in it. But I’m always psyched to be wrong or hear another side I hadn’t considered. On this topic I think there's some juice there, no?

 

[Bill284]

One more point via example Nick: my very first coco plant was grown with @Bill284 directing me step by step. He’s such a peach. But although he tried to tell me about the growth rate and size difference, I was like yeah yeah yeah, just tell me how to do it. Lmao! S I started outdoors, in a pot of coco, with a Blueberry, Dos Si Dos, and one other photo I forget. But all three were in 3 gallon pots.

All three got so incredibly large that I had to move them to the big tent to finish cuz I couldn’t move them around anymore. With my light as high as it goes (almost 8 feet) and the plants in the floor, all three had to be tied down by feet. Not inches. Feet. And those three plants yielded over two pounds of finished bud.

Even in soil a three gallon pot can produce. Witness my Skywalker and Cherry Pie. Both in 3s of soil. Like those buds? How about your space filled with 3s that looked just like those instead of Solos or whatever. I spent minimal time anmd effort on those two plants.

And train them. Try it once that way and you’ll never use solos again. Only big pots. Betcha a million bucks, so to speak. Especially if you grew all the same strain and did a huge huge scrog. There’s a REAL challenge. Scrog your entire grow space.

" yeah yeah yeah. " nobody believes me.
Love ya buddy


Stay safe
Bill284

 

[NickHardy]

I find the curve between pot size and root growth and yield to be non linear.

But we grow - we grow not just coco - we can water so often the medium becomes less important.

We are flood/drain - its not quite the same - the coco (whether or not @Bill284 stlye with bokashi and frass, @DYNOMYCO that the coco growing of which you speak - and honestly amazeballs.

Like for anyone starting out growing - if not a SIP - I dunno soil scares me a bit!.

<The Streets of Philadelphia just came on my Spotify - even for me tonight I've been weirdly lucky!>

So yeah with flood drain you're closer to DWC but not quite. Roots ain't a problem. And you neet to get your numbers clear:

We grow in 4 main sizes - and its so much easier to use milliliters:

So I made this.

Thinking about it.

Its hard to judge, small sample sizes, stuff like this grow the light breaking, other stuff we're always changing something, so many variables!

But yeah that's pretty much I how I see it.

Look - my numbers are sort of fuzzy - we've pulled 88g I think out of a 16oz solo, a couple of Mimosa Orange Punch. Epic yield strain tough, but under HPS 1000w DE ina 4x4 - so think I can do better! The 5 Gallons -sure you can get a bit more that that out a 5 gallon - but the extra cost in grow medium and light - you need them really big hit that weight.

AS I said last night in my journal - I'm not actually that comfortable growing in rockwool. Hard to recycle. Coco grows here in Thailand - its probably the more sustainable, nothing fling round the world. Environmental impact stuff.

But yeah. The massive farms in the US - lots grow in Rockwool so I'll give it a whirl!

We also grow high plant density. Sure like most the board beaten our record single plant weight.

BUt yeah - we're not abolute classic coco growers. We water way more than near anyone else does.

Its a slightly different beast.

Anyway spreadsheet below.

Root growth - I think it costs vertical growth. Stressing them with space yields.

 

[Jon]

Trizkit Photo
Days from Seed: 111
Days in Veg: 98
Days in Flower (since flip): 13
Tent: 5’x5’x6’6”
Light: @Mars Hydro FC-E6500
Current ppfd at highest point on plant: 1140
Nutes: @Remo Nutrients (complete set) plus CalMag plus Iron - Humboldt’s Secret (2-0-0)
Deflarfing “Tutorial”
Part 1
Before

It doesn’t take long to see that this is going to be a serious project. Lmao! Therefore, I’m going to present this in two parts. This is Part 1: Before.

This part is easy. All the pertinent info is on top in the headlines. Your eyes will certainly tell you the rest. I’m just going to show you the plant as best I can. I put an extra seat on my wheelchair seat to get three inches higher for the pictures. Lmao!

Enjoy. There does not exist the appropriate emoji for this plant. All of them are inadequate. So just…..enjoy. She’s fully female. I’m doing Part 2 in the morning.

 

[Jon]

I find the curve between pot size and root growth and yield to be non linear.

But we grow - we grow not just coco - we can water so often the medium becomes less important.

We are flood/drain - its not quite the same - the coco (whether or not @Bill284 stlye with bokashi and frass, @DYNOMYCO that the coco growing of which you speak - and honestly amazeballs.

Like for anyone starting out growing - if not a SIP - I dunno soil scares me a bit!.

<The Streets of Philadelphia just came on my Spotify - even for me tonight I've been weirdly lucky!>

So yeah with flood drain you're closer to DWC but not quite. Roots ain't a problem. And you neet to get your numbers clear:

We grow in 4 main sizes - and its so much easier to use milliliters:

So I made this.

Thinking about it.

Its hard to judge, small sample sizes, stuff like this grow the light breaking, other stuff we're always changing something, so many variables!

But yeah that's pretty much I how I see it.

Look - my numbers are sort of fuzzy - we've pulled 88g I think out of a 16oz solo, a couple of Mimosa Orange Punch. Epic yield strain tough, but under HPS 1000w DE ina 4x4 - so think I can do better! The 5 Gallons -sure you can get a bit more that that out a 5 gallon - but the extra cost in grow medium and light - you need them really big hit that weight.

AS I said last night in my journal - I'm not actually that comfortable growing in rockwool. Hard to recycle. Coco grows here in Thailand - its probably the more sustainable, nothing fling round the world. Environmental impact stuff.

But yeah. The massive farms in the US - lots grow in Rockwool so I'll give it a whirl!

We also grow high plant density. Sure like most the board beaten our record single plant weight.

BUt yeah - we're not abolute classic coco growers. We water way more than near anyone else does.

Its a slightly different beast.

Anyway spreadsheet below.

Root growth - I think it costs vertical growth. Stressing them with space yields.

Well, okay, but I disagree with you 1000% on almost every thing you said here about roots and their relationship to size and yield. However, I’ll stop short of saying no Nick, you’re wrong.

 

[Wastei]

I think running anything over 3 gallons indoors is a waste of coir. Lack of ceiling and turn around time makes anything bigger excessively IMO.

More feedings = higher rates of growth and yield and being root bound is not that big of a problem in coco coir.

The positive about running bigger container is that you don't need to feed as often, and that's also the downside in my book. Feeding frequency and finding the lowest optimal nutrient strength throughout the grow are the main two parameters to dial in in a hydroponic system.

in AA/HPA Aero you're feeding 0.5-3 seconds every 3 minutes and spraying with atomizing mist. Feeding as low as 0.5 EC max in flower. Aero is another ball game when it comes to feeding strength and frequency. Then you have DWC where the plant constantly sits in the sauce and often max out at 1.0-1.2 EC in flower.

In coir I aim to feed up to 7 times a day in flower depending on plant size and count. In veg I normally feed two times a day when they're big. I feed one time a day currently in veg because I want to keep the plant size down before the move.

Trying out and comparing different methods of growing gives you a better idea on plant nutrition and how one can work to optimize a system.

Cheers!

 

[CaptainLucky]

I find the curve between pot size and root growth and yield to be non linear.

But we grow - we grow not just coco - we can water so often the medium becomes less important.

We are flood/drain - its not quite the same - the coco (whether or not @Bill284 stlye with bokashi and frass, @DYNOMYCO that the coco growing of which you speak - and honestly amazeballs.

Like for anyone starting out growing - if not a SIP - I dunno soil scares me a bit!.

<The Streets of Philadelphia just came on my Spotify - even for me tonight I've been weirdly lucky!>

So yeah with flood drain you're closer to DWC but not quite. Roots ain't a problem. And you neet to get your numbers clear:

We grow in 4 main sizes - and its so much easier to use milliliters:

So I made this.

Thinking about it.

Its hard to judge, small sample sizes, stuff like this grow the light breaking, other stuff we're always changing something, so many variables!

But yeah that's pretty much I how I see it.

Look - my numbers are sort of fuzzy - we've pulled 88g I think out of a 16oz solo, a couple of Mimosa Orange Punch. Epic yield strain tough, but under HPS 1000w DE ina 4x4 - so think I can do better! The 5 Gallons -sure you can get a bit more that that out a 5 gallon - but the extra cost in grow medium and light - you need them really big hit that weight.

AS I said last night in my journal - I'm not actually that comfortable growing in rockwool. Hard to recycle. Coco grows here in Thailand - its probably the more sustainable, nothing fling round the world. Environmental impact stuff.

But yeah. The massive farms in the US - lots grow in Rockwool so I'll give it a whirl!

We also grow high plant density. Sure like most the board beaten our record single plant weight.

BUt yeah - we're not abolute classic coco growers. We water way more than near anyone else does.

Its a slightly different beast.

Anyway spreadsheet below.

Root growth - I think it costs vertical growth. Stressing them with space yields.

I have seen Shedster and I think it was con grow some massive plants in small containers. Still with that being said I still think it’s not growing to the potential that it could. But without testing with a cloned comparison I can’t say. CL