AfricanGrower's 1st Hydro Journal - Ebb&Flow - Bubblelicious 2013

Okay I will post one up this weekend, my 1/2 gallon resupply should be in by then. I'm surprised you haven't experimented with it in regards of application (the product instructions don't do it justice), this stuff is really like 'magic' :laughtwo:
 
He smears the gel on the inner walls of the ducting.

About the pH, research has lead me to discover that rockwool has a natural pH of 8.0 and soaking it in pH 5.0-5.5 is mandatory. A lot of the other choice mediums such as coco is like 6.0. Most rock based mediums (aside from RW) are neutral. There has got to be a rock somewhere on Earth that has a nice low pH that can be used in the RW to make it easier to work with. I am not implying that RW is not "Simple", just that it's high natural pH makes a recirculating res (especially as small as mine) much harder to balance. If I dial into 5.8, as soon as it feeds and drains back down, the spike goes to a minimum of 6.2. If left at that value for another feeding, it climbs yet again. The thorn in my back now is that if I keep lowering the pH with DOWN, it shocks the bennies and prolly kills a lot of them. If I leave it alone, by the 3rd feeding, I will likely be up around 7.5. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Which is the lesser evil?

Also learned that in making rockwool, rocks are melted down and spun into the end product much like making cotton candy. I'm gonna look for a "How It's Made" of RW to see the process, hope it's out there. I am assuming that b/c they produce this product for growing smaller leafy plants, that they have already tried to use materials with lower PH, but for whatever reason they agreed on their current recipe. Will have to look into that. It was suggested to me that veg plants produce alkalinity in the root zone and flowering plants make the zone more acidic. If this holds to be true, maybe starting the grow in coco until the transition, then simply repot into RW cubes?

As the majority of the pH discussion happened in this thread, this is why I posted it here.
 
Skybound said:
He smears the gel on the inner walls of the ducting.

About the pH, research has lead me to discover that rockwool has a natural pH of 8.0 and soaking it in pH 5.0-5.5 is mandatory. A lot of the other choice mediums such as coco is like 6.0. Most rock based mediums (aside from RW) are neutral. There has got to be a rock somewhere on Earth that has a nice low pH that can be used in the RW to make it easier to work with. I am not implying that RW is not "Simple", just that it's high natural pH makes a recirculating res (especially as small as mine) much harder to balance. If I dial into 5.8, as soon as it feeds and drains back down, the spike goes to a minimum of 6.2. If left at that value for another feeding, it climbs yet again. The thorn in my back now is that if I keep lowering the pH with DOWN, it shocks the bennies and prolly kills a lot of them. If I leave it alone, by the 3rd feeding, I will likely be up around 7.5. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Which is the lesser evil?

Also learned that in making rockwool, rocks are melted down and spun into the end product much like making cotton candy. I'm gonna look for a "How It's Made" of RW to see the process, hope it's out there. I am assuming that b/c they produce this product for growing smaller leafy plants, that they have already tried to use materials with lower PH, but for whatever reason they agreed on their current recipe. Will have to look into that. It was suggested to me that veg plants produce alkalinity in the root zone and flowering plants make the zone more acidic. If this holds to be true, maybe starting the grow in coco until the transition, then simply repot into RW cubes?

As the majority of the pH discussion happened in this thread, this is why I posted it here.
Click to expand...

Yes, I think I posted in your journal about the natural high alkalinity of rockwool. I know other growers sometimes skip this process (I don't know if Capn does it or not), but conditioning the rockwool before using it REALLY does help with overall pH in early stages. However, rockwool being inert, pH will eventually stabilize to whatever the pH of nutrients are going in. I say eventually because it is basically the same process as conditioning, only longer. When soaking the rockwool in water at a pH of 4.5-5.0 for 24 hours, the pH stabilizes at 6.0 for me. I have left it longer, and no fluctuations were noticed (of course I don't go about the meticulous process of meter testing to the Capn's standards ;)). When you just use the rockwool without conditioning, the natural alkalinity of the rockwool would definitely affect the over all pH in a recirculating system. But just like conditioning, it is constantly being exposed to low pH nutrients, and will eventually stabilize at a comfortable pH.

I tested this theory out towards the beginning of this grow, before I learned the process of conditioning rockwool. It was one of my male bagseeds; After uprooting it, I took some samples of the rockwool it was in, and placed it in a container filled with tapwater (adjusted to a pH of 5.8). After a couple of hours of soaking, I checked the pH and it had not moved more than an increment of .1.

Although the above experiment doesn't fully prove the theory and that there are probably many other factors involved, logically thinking about it, this should be the expected outcome.

Good thing about coco is that it may have less water retention than rockwool, meaning the possibility to increase feeding frequency. I will probably be doing a side by side comparison with mapito (another potentially rewarding medium) versus coco dan or just regular rockwool. We'll see how funds will be displaced ;)

>>> He smears the gel on the inner walls of the ducting.

Well it's not THAT simple, as the gel is not your 'typical' consistency, for example : hair gel! It is less malleable than your conventional gel. I'll put it all in the blog post ;)
 
If I get time tomorrow, I think I'd like to catch a feeding time and just cycle the system for about 15 minutes, check ph and adjust till the next feeding 8 hours away and repeat if necessary. Cap says it's near impossible to over water, plus my growth is pretty decent now so this might be a great thing. Once it has been nearly stabilized, or completely if possible, I can shoot in a half liter of cold tea. Hopefully that gives the roots a nice window to feed, grow and help me keep the pH balanced.
 
But remember to never stray away from the number one rule: simplicity¡! I just realized that I completely forgot to check/adjust my pH this morning and let my plant go through its first schedule feeding at a pH of 6.9. It has happened before, and without any setbacks. I've learned that they are very tolerable to pH, and that cannabis can still be healthy at different ranges of pH ;)
 
I think my next affordable move is to get another container to drain into like Res A and Res B, both aerated, but only Res A has the pump. Once A is too low, I could treat B for pH and PPM and bring it back to A. I think this might give me stability if flushing for 15 minute clips doesn't help.
 
Good green to you Sir AG, I may be a dirt grower but Im with you. Ph fluctuations are something I do on purpose, they seem to be fine with it. Hardy little plants! Also for me Im kind of fallen for coco soil mixes for my medium at mo.
May your girls glimmer and gleam!
 
Don't make me to a PH - Rockwool blog. I'll do it! You know I will!

Sky's nutrient forumla:

ha ha ha. You know I like to give you guys a hard time when you get all technical on me.

>>>He smears the gel on the inner walls of the ducting.

LOL. This reminded me of: "it rubs the lotion on the skin, or else it gets the hose again".
 
Just on the whole ph topic. i recently started using Advanced Nutrients ph perfect 3 part system. I have to say i was skeptical but my plants are loving it. i have 10 soil plants, 40 rockwool plants. 8 DWC buckets and 20 coco plants running it and they all look amazing! The only real issue is with the soil, it seems to be more sensitive to the strength of feeds. Ive just flipped the last of the plants using PH perfect, ive got some plants running AN big bud and over drive as boosts, some running Dutch pro as a boost and some runnin blUe PlAnEt nutes vitabloom. No nutes have been ph adjusted at any point. So far the PH perfect and Dutch pro Explode combination is working best in every media, followed by vitabloom and fianlly the big bud.

Anyway the point is PH'ing will be a thing of the past before long as nutes are chelated differently and available for uptake in a much broader range. I have the first of the plants finished on 16th dec and if there are no probs i will be switching permanently to PH perfect base nutes, it saves loads of hassle.


Just food for thought.
 
Cultivator said:
Just on the whole ph topic. i recently started using Advanced Nutrients ph perfect 3 part system. I have to say i was skeptical but my plants are loving it. i have 10 soil plants, 40 rockwool plants. 8 DWC buckets and 20 coco plants running it and they all look amazing! The only real issue is with the soil, it seems to be more sensitive to the strength of feeds. Ive just flipped the last of the plants using PH perfect, ive got some plants running AN big bud and over drive as boosts, some running Dutch pro as a boost and some runnin blUe PlAnEt nutes vitabloom. No nutes have been ph adjusted at any point. So far the PH perfect and Dutch pro Explode combination is working best in every media, followed by vitabloom and fianlly the big bud.

Anyway the point is PH'ing will be a thing of the past before long as nutes are chelated differently and available for uptake in a much broader range. I have the first of the plants finished on 16th dec and if there are no probs i will be switching permanently to PH perfect base nutes, it saves loads of hassle.


Just food for thought.
Click to expand...

See, I've been waiting on more growers (especially hydro growers) to start backing up AN's line of pH perfect products. I too was still 'iffy' about it only because I only randomly noticed good reviews about the product. Cultivator, I must say you give me hope in my pH battles, because as you say, dialing in pH for available nutrient uptake WILL be the thing of the past (Just like how LEDs are not the NEW thing anymore...read the papers, PLASMA is what's "IN" now :reading420magazine:)

Please feel free to update THIS journal with your final results and thoughts of the AN's pH perfect line. Although I won't be switching from the 'recipe' anytime soon, this is definitely something I will be looking forward to trying once I fully gain the experience of WHAT EXACTLY is causing my current fluctuations! The fact that growers realize the importance of a semi-wide ranging pH (like LA ;)) shows me that there is still so much to learn before taking the easy route, if you will!

+Reps Cult ;)

>>> Don't make me to a PH - Rockwool blog. I'll do it! You know I will!

Capn, DO IT, I dare you :laughtwo: (and excuse my ignorance for not knowing what movie that GIF is from)
 
Dresney said:
Whhhhhat?! Silence of the Lambs! It's a great movie. Watch it tonight! I will, too. We can have a movie date. :laughtwo:
Click to expand...

I feel ashamed now that I'm pretty sure I passed up an opportunity to watch this movie before...a movie date it is, I'll grab the popcorn:popcorn:, my cat's got the couch :laughtwo:
 
Here are some tips for you man:

1.Check the temperature of your solution, it should stay the same temperature all the time else the pH fluctuates.
2.Don't use any organic products.
3. On rockwool: soak 24hours with pH 5.1-5.2(never below 5.0 it ruins your rockwool).
4.Your medium temperature should be the same as you nutrient solution temperature.
5. always use a lid on your resevoir.

i got some more tips,
but better first try this

good luck man

if that doesn't stabalize your pH
 
Exemplarisch said:
Here are some tips for you man:

1.Check the temperature of your solution, it should stay the same temperature all the time else the pH fluctuates.
2.Don't use any organic products.
3. On rockwool: soak 24hours with pH 5.1-5.2(never below 5.0 it ruins your rockwool).
4.Your medium temperature should be the same as you nutrient solution temperature.
5. always use a lid on your resevoir.

i got some more tips,
but better first try this

good luck man

if that doesn't stabalize your pH
Click to expand...

Hey Exemp!, Thanks for stopping by. I'll try and meet all your points mentioned above, then I definitely will have some questions ;)

>>>1.Check the temperature of your solution, it should stay the same temperature all the time else the pH fluctuates.

My resevoir temps are relative to my ambient room temps, as my res is outside of my grow room. The temp can range anywhere between 15C - 20C. If I don't get some sort of chiller, there will be no way for me to maintain temperatures at a steady number.

>>>2.Don't use any organic products.

I have not used organic-based nutrients since I stopped using Fox Farms. But I have now realized my CaMg is from General Hydroponcis organics line, and contains added molasses.

>>>3. On rockwool: soak 24hours with pH 5.1-5.2(never below 5.0 it ruins your rockwool).

Yes I already condition my rockwool. First question: Why EXACTLY does a pH below 5.0 ruin your rockwool? You got me completely stumped on that one?

>>>4.Your medium temperature should be the same as you nutrient solution temperature.

Below the canopy, my tent never really gets above 75F so I am guessing that my medium is staying well below that. Again, I don't have the same concerns about temps in medium and and res as a typical hydro grower would. In most hydro setups, that are either DWC or aeroponics, the grower needs to maintain low temps because of two related reasons: 1.If running a sterile environment, the cold temperatures don't provide a suitable environment for bacteria to develop. If temps get too high, the chance of pythium (root rot) will definitely aid to pH fluctuations! 2.The lower temps allow for higher levels of DO (dissolved oxygen) in the water, and as you must know, in a setup that involves the complete submerging of your roots need to have access to as much oxygen in the water as possible. The high DO levels, in a 'Live' environment also aid to keeping anaerobic bacteria at bay, while giving your beneficial myco's a suitable rich O2 environment to strive in.

>>>5. always use a lid on your resevoir.

And of course ;)
 
1. The ph is relative to the temperature.
When the temperature drops the pH drops as well.

3 i don't know exactly whats ruins you rockwool but that's what all the suppliers reccomending.
i think it might has something to do with the rockwool disolving at low pH.

4. if you have a sterile invironment then there are no bacterias.
You also dont need bacterias or myco's if you only feed the plants minerals.

And use hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) that kills bacteria and fungus and adds extra oxygen to your water.

So if you want your Ph to be stabilized.
The temperature of your medium and the temperatures of your resevoir(where u measure the pH) must be the same.

Always above 18c and below 23 (21 works best for me)

I hope that covers your questions.
 
Exemplarisch said:
1. The ph is relative to the temperature.
When the temperature drops the pH drops as well.

3 i don't know exactly whats ruins you rockwool but that's what all the suppliers reccomending.
i think it might has something to do with the rockwool disolving at low pH.

4. if you have a sterile invironment then there are no bacterias.
You also dont need bacterias or myco's if you only feed the plants minerals.

And use hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) that kills bacteria and fungus and adds extra oxygen to your water.

So if you want your Ph to be stabilized.
The temperature of your medium and the temperatures of your resevoir(where u measure the pH) must be the same.

Always above 18c and below 23 (21 works best for me)

I hope that covers your questions.
Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing your knowledge Exemplarisch :Namaste:
 
Update Log 1

I am just putting up some numbers I pulled from my meters for my reference and everyone elses reference. In no way is this an ACTUAL update, or in no way are these numbers 100% viable until my 3 DAY TEST commences on Monday. ;)

Excerpt from notes

22/11/13

-PPM: 1020
-pH: Adjusted down to 5.8 from a pH of 6.8 in 48 hours

23/11/13

-PPM: 810
-pH: adjusted to 5.9 from a high 7.3 in 24 hours
 
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