AfricanGrower's 1st Hydro Journal - Ebb&Flow - Bubblelicious 2013

Your grammar is an easy read and ideas communicated well. About the PH v. PPM, I still can't wrap my brain around it. If my water is 7.0, I add only acidic material that lowers the PH by roughly 1.2 (+/- 0.5), what process alters those numbers above 7.0? I mean logic tells me that the ph should even out somewhere between all those numbers, but I know in reality this is not the case as it is a natural process, not a number sentence. I would then, really like to know what the natural process is, that is occurring during the feeding that is altering the solution's PH levels into a new realm. If these changes can be (or already have been) identified, then the grower can identify what rules apply and use that knowledge as an advantage.

A late 19th century (I think Brittish?) scientist named Thomas Troward who later became a preacher has written a few books. His teachings as a scientist involved identifying natural laws (gravity, relativity, probability etc) and studying them in great detail to master them to specialize at some form of the application of said laws. As an aspiring grower, I try to apply these principles so I can really understand what is happening in my grows and why. Like I know if I have a potted soil plant and if I water it once every 3 days and give it light and fresh air, it will grow productively and produce it's fruit. That is an example of these concepts.

With that said, I would like to know what is happening that changes the PH like that. I think this knowledge could be manipulated for the grower's benefit. anyone have a clue? Hit me with the latin words!
 
I try Sky, I try. English is not my first language, but I study it enough to the point where I consider myself a native English speaker! But sorry, I have no Latin in my lexicon ;)

As to your questions about what is REALLY going on, on the molecular scale of things...well, honestly you bring up points I just don't have the expertise to answer. I have never seen my pH rise above its natural pH, so that was the only reason I came to my conclusion. But I see what you are getting at. There has to be more going on than just simple addition and subtraction! I just don't know enough about these natural processes to give an educated guess.

Troward, huh? I know what I will be doing this weekend. The natural world fascinates me, not to mention, now that cannabis cultivation is involved, its just obvious that I need to learn more!

b.real said:
fopo?
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Bro, I'm drifting in and out of sleep:sleep:....I am having a real hard time understanding the word, "fopo" :hmmm::confused:
 
<<PPM has dropped to 1040, and the pH has risen to 6.3.
I'm sure you know this already, but I'll offer it anyway, when PPM drops and pH rises, the plant is using more nutrients than water. A very tricky thing, pH I mean, especially when we introduce all the elements we all do when growing.
 
Skybound said:
With that said, I would like to know what is happening that changes the PH like that. I think this knowledge could be manipulated for the grower's benefit. anyone have a clue? Hit me with the latin words!
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Hmm. Do you mean how does the pH change once you run the water through the plant? Like runoff?

I remember a bit about pH from chemistry classes. I'm going to throw some stuff out there and see if I'm in the ball park of what you're asking.

When we measure pH, we're really measuring how many H⁺ (acidic hydrogen ions) and OH⁻ (basic hydroxide ions). When we have a neutral pH of 7 that means we have an equal amount of hydrogen and hydroxide ions. This is why pure water is a pH of 7. If you look at the chemical symbol for water, H2O, you can rearrange it to be H⁺(OH⁻). You see the 1:1 ratio there.

If our solution is acidic (lower than 7), we have more H⁺ and basic solutions (higher than 7) have more OH⁻.

I'm not sure of the specific reactions that take place when we feed, but my guess is that other ions are binding with these hydrogen and hydroxide ions, forming new compounds.

I'll try digging around and seeing if I can find some reactions specific to growing, but I'm pretty sure these are the very basics of what is happening. Maybe someone smarter than I am will come along and elaborate. :cheesygrinsmiley:
 
I like where your head is Dres! I don't understand much of what you said b/c high school wasn't cool enough for me back in my really really dumb days, but I think that's something I can eventually wrap my head around. Please do continue to follow that lead you have. I would also, but you're light years ahead of me and you'll likely find actual data we can use. +REPs for your findings thus far!
 
Awesome Dresney, school is in session! I'll pay attention this time round, I promise lol
 
AfricanGrower said:
I also am realizing that the high pH swings was more than likely due to my plants eating more than they are drinking. I was a complete idiot in not taking PPM readings after my pH swings and comparing the results. Well, before yesterday's res change I did and this is what I noticed:

After yesterdays res change, I brought my PPM to 1150, and a pH of 6.0. Now today after about 3 feeding cycles, the PPM has dropped to 1040, and the pH has risen to 6.3. So this is just going to be a matter of time before everything will stabilize and the plant will 'drink' and 'eat' in equal proportions. The only reason I don't want to increase the PPM too drastically is because the bagseed is still a full month behind in overall maturity compared to the Bubb, and at the rate of increase that I am going by, the bagseed shows acceptable amounts of nutrient burn (1 millimeter of burnt leaf tips) while the Bubb is eating like a champ
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Hey AG, ah... I see dank nugs in your future. Even if this baby isn't ready, you're gonna have to take a little sample at x-mas for a new year's eve celebration! Is the exhaust from the cool tube exhausting INSIDE the tent? Or am I seeing that incorrectly?

>>>I also am realizing that the high pH swings was more than likely due to my plants eating more than they are drinking.

I understand what you're saying, but we need a bigger median measurement. What I mean by this, is... Measurements must be taken for a few days, not a few feedings. Remember in chemistry class, the instructor made you take several readings and then calculate the median?

It sounds like you are being cautious about PPM, but Before upping the ppm over 1000, I'm going to ask you to put on your lab coat, and justify your actions by performing this test: :hmmmm: You know the Capn, he's going to throw a wrench into this! One thing to remember is it takes a good week or two for your plant to show signs of stress. We hear people say, "My leaf tips are burnt." What is actually happening, is the salts dehydrate fresh water from the leaves. (if you're lost at sea, drinking salt water will dehydrate you).

For the test: "Stick to the recipe" of PPM at 800-900, and for now, don't use the PH as a factor. There are other things that cause your PH to fluctuate, like not using R.O. water, your hands in the water, hoses, fittings, etc. And don't forget, we are using cheap meters here. For the following experiment, adjust PH daily (if needed). To determine where your EC needs to be, let's focus only on PPM for a minute.

1. First, make sure you are recirculating for at least 15 minutes at a time. This way, you can be confident the PH and PPM in your medium is the same as your res water. After your system is settled and hasn't been tinkered with for 24 hours, calibrate your meter, then take a PPM reading. Let's say it's 800. Now, come back in 15 mins, and take another PPM reading, do that a few times until you are confident you have a good median reading.

2. The next day, calibrate your meter, and then do the same exact thing. Note the measurements.

3. The next day, repeat step 2.

After the 3rd day, if your PPM median measurement is significantly (+/- 150ppm) different than 800, ONLY THEN would I consider changing your target PPM.

The more contact your roots have with the water, the lower the PPM needs to be. For example, you may have seen ronnie's rainforest system... he had to keep his ppm SO LOW to avoid burning his plants. And on the other end of the spectrum, we have dirt growers, who up the ppm over 1200 with no issues.

I've taken at least 1/2 dozen strains over 1000 (in cubes) in hopes of increasing bud size, and in EVERY case, I've done more harm than good. Currently, I have two plants in their 6th week of flower. One running at 850, the other, 1100. The one running at 1100 has signs of dehydration on upper leaves, and I have since lowered it back down to 900. The one that never went over 850, looks perfect. (my meter has a .5 conversion factor)

I'm not saying bubb can't handle 1100. Maybe it can. But I'm challenging you to justify a PPM increase.

Here's a pic of a bud from the one I was running at 1100. If you look closely, you can see dehydrated tips and spots here and there. Nothing too bad, but you don't want those dead leaf tips in your bud. It is hard to trim out, ruins bag appeal, and tastes awful.

Dehydration.jpg
 
Hey AG, thanks for your kind words on my thread. best of budding babes to you my friend.
 
Skybound said:
What does 'conversion factor" mean? Blog entry please!
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It's the conversion rate at which meters that are calibrated with NaCl can be converted directly into EC. You basically take the conversion rate, multiply it by 1000, then divide the result from whatever PPM reading you want to convert into EC. (ie. 900 PPMs @.5---> .5 x 1000 = 500 ---> 900 / 500 = 1.8 --->1.8 is your EC reading.

>>> After the 3rd day, if your PPM median measurement is significantly (+/- 150ppm) different than 800, ONLY THEN would I consider changing your target PPM.

I definitely understand your perspective, and yes, proper data needs to be gathered to make a valid justification. But remember my reasoning behind the increase is based off of assumption more than anything. My reasoning for finally going over the 1000 mark was solely based on signs of lower foliage yellowing and dying off. With an increase above 1000, for the last 3 days, I have not noticed any change in appearance, nor has the lower foliage stopped slowly dying off. (I have no interest about the overall health of the bagseed as I know it can handle the high salt content.)

I will have to wait until next weeks res change to start this test, as I have 15gallons of mixed nutrients at 1050 PPMs. Valid data will surely come out of this.
 
Is the exhaust from the cool tube exhausting INSIDE the tent? Or am I seeing that incorrectly?
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Completely overlooked this question. What you see there is a my exhaust fan. It pulls air in from the grow tent, and pushes it over an through the bulb, dumping all the hot air out from the top of the tent.

I have am not expecting the need for a carbon filter. The most I will use is ONA gel in the exhaust ducting.
 
TheCapn said:
Dehydration.jpg
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Beautiful picture. I can't say I ever seen such a fuzzy trichome production on the leaf edge like that.

Nice work and +Reps :thumb:

Edit: :scratchinghead: I may of got it wrong. Maybe that was TheCapn's picture. Capn got the Reps that time :)
 
Scarfinger68 said:
Beautiful picture. I can't say I ever seen such a fuzzy trichome production on the leaf edge like that.

Nice work and +Reps :thumb:

Edit: :scratchinghead: I may of got it wrong. Maybe that was TheCapn's picture.
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Haha, yes Scar, that is bud grown by the Capn, not me. Although I have high hopes that I will come out with something, if not 'fuzzier' ;)

On a side note, I was going through forums I used to be active on (sparked by B.Real's 'fopo' question) and I'm so humble to know where and what I came from, growing-wise.

WORLDS smallest pc grow

this will be my third grow, and first time using a pc box i designed.

height: 11inches
length: 13 inches
width: 5 1/2 inches

3 15w cfls. equiv. to 60w each

two small pc fans

medium: shultz* soil andcolor burst fertilizer.

pictures will be up within the next 2 days because my camera is f*cked. i am still not an expierienced grower so any comments, suggestions or help would be useful.
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As you noticed I was quite young at this time around 2009. No idea of proper grammar construction, nor punctuation! Only 4 years ago. I joined THAT site a month before my 18th birthday, and was banned for being underage. It really made me take a step back and reevaluate my priorities, and I am glad to say that I have found a home here at 420 :)
 
AfricanGrower said:
Completely overlooked this question. What you see there is a my exhaust fan. It pulls air in from the grow tent, and pushes it over an through the bulb, dumping all the hot air out from the top of the tent.

I have am not expecting the need for a carbon filter. The most I will use is ONA gel in the exhaust ducting.
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I'm interested to see how you get on with this ONA gel thing. I took your advice and placed containers of it near fans and it works well, but I can't imaging not having a carbon filter.

So with that duct boost fan, you're PUSHING the then air thru the hood, right?
 
Well I do more than just place the open container near the air flow. I coat the inner ducting with the stuff. Now that reminds me, I need to restock on another tub ;)

>>>So with that duct boost fan, you're PUSHING the then air thru the hood, right?

Yes it pushes it through the cooltube, spilling out through the top exhaust port.
 
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