300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

[Karr]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Did you keep a mother from the last comparison grow? It would be awesome if you did so as you could have the same genetics from which to compare everything you change in the future.

For your vertical setup, would that be in your current tents? Those are only about 3x3 right? If so that would be one tight vert. There are commercial units that do it, so for sure it's enough room. I just haven't seen one setup.

I would love to see your layout or plan as I currently utilize a 400cmh and have always loved the idea of goig vert. Too bad I'll need a new bulb if I do

Ps do you have any links to diy small space vert setups? Thanks!

Oh and pps. How long did you veg and end up flowering for in this comparison grow? I'll dig for the info, but maybe someone will beat me to it.

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Your tent is looking pleasingly full! I want to watch what you do with this planter!

Hope you are having a Happy New Year!!

Thanks Tmac12, having a great New Year and hope yours is too .


Both the kush-stuffed tent and the PPP window box planter are on-schedule and doing great.

The window boxes will give me a sample size of 4 plants grown in various different media, and possibly different nutes, under a 12/12 light schedule from seed or small clones.

The fast turnover should speed up my experiments with media/nutes, different strains, and whether 12/12 grows with smaller plants are a viable method for me.

thanks again sis

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

wow amazing as ever

thanks Dexter!

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I would have to agree with Irish on his 18 or 24. With your meticulous approach it could shed some light on a frequently opinionated debate.

I understand arguments both ways. No where plants grow(arctic variety aside if any exist) a 24 hour day is possible. The pro 18 ers will argue about the amount of growth that takes place in the dark, the whole stored energy thing. The indisputable advantage they have is 6 hours a day less electricity usage.

Then the 24 guys, they cite that cannabis is C4(or c3?) plant that does not require rest. They talk of dark only showing growth by means of stretch and that they actually do not grow faster with dark(usably). More light equals more bud and shorter fatter plants.

A lot of these guys cite the big growers in netherlands and such, but I'm sure even there not everyone agrees.

It would be fun to compare using two very similar enviormentes and a stable mother.

But do you have two of the same plants? Couldnt really do led in one and hps in the other.

This one would require the same light setup in both tents, which I could do with 250w HID, since I have two identical hoods, bulbs, and two 250w digital ballasts.

I have both PPP and Sunset Kush mother plants, so identical clones isn't a problem.

This would be an easy and straightforward comparison, but needs to be done as an isolated experiment, because running different light schedules in each tent rules out the ability to compare other grow parameters.

It's on the mythbuster list .

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I would have to agree with Irish on his 18 or 24. With your meticulous approach it could shed some light on a frequently opinionated debate.

I understand arguments both ways. No where plants grow(arctic variety aside if any exist) a 24 hour day is possible. The pro 18 ers will argue about the amount of growth that takes place in the dark, the whole stored energy thing. The indisputable advantage they have is 6 hours a day less electricity usage.

Then the 24 guys, they cite that cannabis is C4(or c3?) plant that does not require rest. They talk of dark only showing growth by means of stretch and that they actually do not grow faster with dark(usably). More light equals more bud and shorter fatter plants.

A lot of these guys cite the big growers in netherlands and such, but I'm sure even there not everyone agrees.

It would be fun to compare using two very similar enviormentes and a stable mother.

But do you have two of the same plants? Couldnt really do led in one and hps in the other.

It would be fun, and I've got identical gear and clones to do it with, but I'm thinking of doing the CMH/HPS vertical grow next.

There's several I'm very curious about, but I'll have to patiently work my way through them.

Happy New Year, SS!

Irish and Karr both bring up points I have thought much about, but have never tested side-by-side so to speak.

The second half of the lighting debate! Yay, LEDs work fine. (No surprise there, at least for me)

well hell, you could have told me and saved me a lotta work, lol

Now its on to lighting schedules, no matter which source lighting you end up picking. I would also love for you to test and either prove or debunk some of the more obvious questions when it comes to lighting schedules.


Maybe, adding some actinic bulbs in one of the tents during the "night" hours would be a starting point of testing to see if any light is indeed bad for indoor growing during the "night cycles" and if actinics add anything special(who knows, there's clearly something different outdoors, besides free radicals!). If you compared outdoor lighting during the day vs night, or sun vs moon. The intensity change might "feel" like complete darkness to the plant, but there is still a full spectrum, although at a much lower intensity during the night, being provided to the plant for the entire 24 hour period. (Side thought: An LED array or electronic ballast for MH/HPS, that could do 100% intensity during the "day" and step down to 5-10% intensity to replicate "night" hours?)

With each year passing, growers 'round the world are finding NEW and exciting ways of doing things. Anything is possible, we have much to learn. Let's keep open minds as we are sure to debunk something along the way, it's part of the love of this hobby, I'd say!

Any thoughts?

Adding some actinic lighting during the dark cycle would be very easy for me to do. I have a 24" aquarium hood that uses two 55w power compact T5 tubes and they come in actinic colors. It has independent switches for each tube, so I could run 55w or 110w of actinic light in the dark cycle.

Again, however, this would have to be an isolated experiment with the actinic lighting as the main variable, because having different lighting schedules in each tent would throw off any other comparisons, at least between tents.

but, definitely doable, and sounds very interesting. Thanks for sharing about actinic lighting and it's effect on your reef tank.

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

You may tackle the "MG soil is horrible" myth? I expect it to do fine under your tutelage.

Not going to tackle it in the CMH vs HPS grow, because I want to do the soil comparison with about 5 different soils and a sample sizes of 4-5 plants for each soil.

For the CMH/HPS grow, I'll just do 3 plants in the same soil and 3 plants in hempy in each tent, and with a sample size of 6 plants between both tents, that should provide pretty good data for performance differences between soil and passive hydro.

I'm going to shop for a big bag of

You got plenty of time to shop, because I won't be able to start it until after I tear everything down after my next harvest and build my new room.

Probably at least a couple of months or so, but I'll inaugurate my new room with a vert grow

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

As most of me agrees with you, part of me lends itself to thought. Where would the world be if we relied solely on Universities to test or invent new ways to old ideas.

good point, many things have been invented and discovered outside of formal research settings.

...And your best is always a job well done, which is why I find myself here, now, writing this.

my pleasure and you're welcome

Pitting these types of tests against each other is more a test of, in my opinion, spectrum availability in each light source. Maybe, instead of testing R/B/Y/O/Uv/Ir LEDs against the same, maybe pit them against white/warm 2000k-3000k to 6000-7000k temp LEDS.

CMH vs HID, or actually CMH vs MH, again just spectrum availability.

Soil comparisons are about availability of nutes, or testing which nute packed soil is best suited for indoor use.

Years ago when I grew outdoors, it was a very 3rd grader approach. Plants need water, dirt and light. Mostly free items. I dug a big hole filled it with some lava rock from the front yard(that ugly ground cover, 1-2inch chunks) and cheap soil from a local nursery. I would drag the water hose over to it every other day, turn on the water on low and let it soak for about an hour. Nothing special. The product was amazing. 6 ft plant with tons of dense colas and incredible frost. Back then I didn't know a thing about pH'ing water. I didn't add nutes. I didn't let the water sit over night to get rid of chloramines. Didn't check water temperature prior to watering. I didn't chop the bottom layers off(lollipop). I didn't do a thing, I didn't know any better. Now, I've got a cabinet(and I love them all) full of vitamins and minerals for my girls, along with pH Up and Down, Perlite, Kelp additives, Endos and Ectos. So, by saying this I don't mean to say it couldn't have been improved on, but an apple can only get so sweet. The focus was not on nutes or spectrum(when I grew outdoors) but lets assume you have the Sun's spectrum matched(CMH) as closely as you are going to get for indoors. What are the other variables, of the many, when thinking about outdoor vs indoor? Could it be Co2 availability? Natural stress of the outdoors? Lighting schedules(duration)? Night lights? Which of these variables are worth testing and which of these can be tested with what we have available to us, your average garage dwelling growers?

I think I'm trying to push you to test things that aren't yet known. (Little greedy on my part... hehe)

The tests you've mentioned are more or less tests to see, of the things we KNOW work, which will give you the best(best may mean quantity or quality to you) end results. And I can appreciate that.

Very thought provoking post, Nine Leafer.

I can also appreciate you "pushing" me to do less conventional and conservative tests, but I also have to be "greedy", although I'd rather call it practical.

I choose what to test and compare based on what my grow needs are and what direction I'm wanting to go, because I'm very much independently funded , so I have to be practical and do tests that I think will help my grows progress.

I'm a simple mainstream personal grower, and something like a soil comparison grow would be very useful to me and I'd think to others also.

If the experiment is something fairly easily doable, like dogs suggestion to use clear incandescent bulbs for the last couple of weeks, or using some actinic light during the dark cycle, I'm game, but for now, most of my questions are mundane and practical, because that's where I'm am at with my progress as a grower.

Once I get my basic game down better, I can start to finesse things.

It's a pleasure reading your threads. I've learned a lot from this thread alone as I had little, to no, knowledge of indoor growing prior to finding this. The money you saved me, from buying things that don't work, is amazing. I know I'll learn from whatever you decide to take on, and I will be aboard! Thanks! Oh and stop by my thread when you have some time, check out what you've inspired directly through this thread.

I will do that, and thanks for the kind words and very nice compliment! I'm glad that you found some practical information that helped you, and I'm looking forward to comparing things like different light schedules in the future.

 

[Tmac12]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Addressing the leaking lite issue. When we put Solar outside by the dining room, never thought about the over the sink kitchen lite.... Now she almost got killed by the chickens,was duct taped together, and never got ferts but once or twice and had a little lite almost everynite... but we got a few buds from her. And they were quite good.

 

[Barry Manilow]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Just when I thought this thread was about done we get more great thought provoking ideas.... the gift that keeps on giving! Great posts Nine Leafer.

 

[HorseBadoritz]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

High SS,

Don't know if you'd be into it, but I'd like to see a 400w Horizontal HID vs a 400w CMH Bare Vertical going for the best yield in similar spaces. Even further, I'd like to see you veg 'em under T5s.

I think it might also be informative if you did the PPP, so you could compare structure and smoke to this last LED grow... all subjectively, of course

You mentioned that you had a 250w digital ballast for a proposed CMH grow. The Philips retro bulbs still have a warning that they might not work with electronic ballasts.

None the less, I'm sure whatever you choose to do and journal will kick us all farther down the path faster

 

[Pop Kulture]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Here's my pre-flip LST method:

Once the plant recovers and starts to produce new shoots and bush out, which takes from 2-4 days or so, I flip them to 12/12.

Any other tops that start growing taller than you want the canopy should also get the same treatment with additional ties, but most of the time, my experience has been that if you keep the main cola down, the plants distribute their energy fairly evenly among all the rest of the tops and the canopy levels itself pretty well.

dat's it

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I will be using MG organics choice, as well as Happy Frog soil, so I can see which does better. Both are on the list that my seed bank recommend soils for use without having to feed if correct pot size is chosen.

-Go

How many plants in each?

I'd be very interested in your observations.

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I am using a 700 watt led that has 15 light spectrums and 3 watt lights running around 2.65 watts per light. temps at the light fixture are around 101 (right on the fixture) but within an inch drop considerably, max temp in room now is 91, lights off is 75

High phil!

I think you asked me about this.

Pointing the IR thermometer straight up at the Spectra, I get a reading of 99.2 with the ventilation fan off.

With the ventilation fan on, and pointed straight up at the panel, I get a reading of 91.5.

This is with lowish ambient temps of 67-68 in the garage and 75 or so inside the tents.

Besides the excellent air circulation and mold prevention this setup gives me, I have to believe that it's also going to have a positive effect on the panel's lifespan.

 

[go green]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Sounds like good circulation SS. I wish I could get my temps up for the first time ever. We are going to need to determine how big of an area those ceramic heaters will cover, Irish is using, as well as some others, and soon myself, and possibly even you at some point?

What's your topsoil temp SS?

-Go

 

[Setting Sun]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Did you keep a mother from the last comparison grow? It would be awesome if you did so as you could have the same genetics from which to compare everything you change in the future.

I initially sprouted two fem PPP seeds. One of the mothers got stem rot and the 8 clones in this grow were salvaged from this plant before it died.

I didn't take any clones from them because the other mother plant was the same pheno, so I've been cloning her.

It's confusing, lol, but the second mom is alive and well, and extremely prolific.

For your vertical setup, would that be in your current tents? Those are only about 3x3 right? If so that would be one tight vert. There are commercial units that do it, so for sure it's enough room. I just haven't seen one setup.

I would be running 250w CMH and HPS bulbs, not 400w, and my tents are a good match in size for a 250w vertical grow.

I would love to see your layout or plan as I currently utilize a 400cmh and have always loved the idea of goig vert. Too bad I'll need a new bulb if I do

It's going to be real simple. Bare bulb hanging down with circulation fan blowing straight up. Six plants in each tent, half in soil, half in hempy.

Ps do you have any links to diy small space vert setups? Thanks!

If you search for "vertical grow" in the forums here, or in google, you'll get some good hits.

Here's a few vertical grows from some buds of mine to get you started:

Gator's Cage

Horse's Coco Hempy 400w CMH Vertical Crawlspace Grow 2010

6 Clones - 3 Strains & Hempies - Oh My!

Oh and pps. How long did you veg and end up flowering for in this comparison grow? I'll dig for the info, but maybe someone will beat me to it.

vegged for roughly 4 weeks, but I go more by height and they were flipped at 12-14".

they flowered for around 8-9 weeks.



thanks karr

 

[Karr]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Thanks ss. I might be getting that spectra 300 soon, considering keeping my CMH going for a scrogg setup with hempy and oc+. Coco as well. Then under the led I would have my 6 plant rainforest 66, not full though. I need to give hydro another try as my first experience failed horribly.

My biggest problem is the crap load of ionic nuts that iv got left.

The bottle says soil/coco and coco is something almos like hydro, being inert and just suspending eater, so hopefully these nuts will work for my hydro setup.

 

[Nine Leafer]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

well hell, you could have told me and saved me a lotta work, lol

Adding some actinic lighting during the dark cycle would be very easy for me to do. I have a 24" aquarium hood that uses two 55w power compact T5 tubes and they come in actinic colors. It has independent switches for each tube, so I could run 55w or 110w of actinic light in the dark cycle.

Again, however, this would have to be an isolated experiment with the actinic lighting as the main variable, because having different lighting schedules in each tent would throw off any other comparisons, at least between tents.

but, definitely doable, and sounds very interesting. Thanks for sharing about actinic lighting and it's effect on your reef tank.

LOL, even though I know you are joking. I would never discount or diminish any tests you've done. I was just merely speaking from a, somewhat, scientific stand point of, X + Y = Z. Meaning light(X), no matter what the source may be, LED or HID or CFL, are known to have certain nanometer(Y) ranges. If those ranges are present, growth(Z) will occur. Testing different LED brands against each other make sense to test those individual panels outputs. I agree that actinic testing would not be of interest when testing other variables such as soil or other light sources, it must be the only variable being tested. Thanks for the response!

Just when I thought this thread was about done we get more great thought provoking ideas.... the gift that keeps on giving! Great posts Nine Leafer.

Thanks! Just some random thoughts on my mind about growing indoors.

 

[Dexter4Morgan]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I saw some 75W "moonlight" bulbs at the pet store the other day. It took some self control not to buy a bunch and try them LOL

 

[Nine Leafer]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

So I got to thinking about all these LEDs on the market and decided to do some quick math to determine which is most cost efficient/upfront cost. LED vs HID. These are the number I came up with please correct if you see anything out of line.

__________________________________________________

360w LED Arrary (with 8 years Lifetime 50000hrs)

[Unit/Upfront Cost]
$1000 for the unit itself. (GrowLEDHydro 300w Panel)

[Power Usage] (@ $0.14 Per kWh)
$8.47 for each week Veg @ 24hr/Day

$4.23 for each week Flower @ 12hr/Day

[Veg/Flower Time(wks)]
15.66 weeks of Veg each year = $132.64

36.34 weeks of Flower each year = $153.71
____________________________
$286.35 for power for 1 year

[Total 8 year Cost(50000hrs)]
$3290.84 to run 8 years or the panel lifetime (includes panel price of $1000)

[Side topic]
24 rows with 12 LEDs per Row = 288 LEDs on a 360w power supply. 90% of 360w is 324w, 90% is max watt output.
(Fans: Say they use the remaining 36w divided by 6 fans, makes them 6w per fan which leaves you 288w for all the LEDs)

324w minus the 36w of fans = 288w remaining for LEDs

That leaves, 1w provided to each of the 288 - 3w(rated) LEDs?

Just some quick math, please clarify.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

400w HID CMH (460w actual usage)

[Units/Upfront Cost]
$150 ballast (400w S51 TYPE)
$50 reflector (LumeWing)
$70 bulb (I found them as low as $52)

[Power Usage] (@ $0.14 Per kWh)
$10.82 a week Veg @ 24 Hr/Day
$5.41 a week Flower @ 12 Hr/Day

[Veg/Flower Time(wks)]
15.66 weeks of Veg each year = $166.44

36.34 weeks of Flower each year = $196.59
___________________________________
$363.03 for power for 1 year

$3384.24 for 8 years with 4 years life left on the ballast (includes $480 price for reflector, ballast and 4 bulbs (2 years each bulb)

[Side Topic]
11365 Hrs of bulb life used over 2 years or 56.82% bulb life used in 2 years - 20000 Hr rated CMH bulbs
(Another bulb will run you $70 and you are off and running for another 2 years.)

 

[IrishBoy]

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

So I got to thinking about all these LEDs on the market and decided to do some quick math to determine which is most cost efficient/upfront cost. LED vs HID. These are the number I came up with please correct if you see anything out of line.

__________________________________________________

360w LED Arrary (with 8 years Lifetime 50000hrs)

[Unit/Upfront Cost]
$1000 for the unit itself. (GrowLEDHydro 300w Panel)

[Power Usage] (@ $0.14 Per kWh)
$8.47 for each week Veg @ 24hr/Day

$4.23 for each week Flower @ 12hr/Day

[Veg/Flower Time(wks)]
15.66 weeks of Veg each year = $132.64

36.34 weeks of Flower each year = $153.71
____________________________
$286.35 for power for 1 year

[Total 8 year Cost(50000hrs)]
$3290.84 to run 8 years or the panel lifetime (includes panel price of $1000)

[Side topic]
24 rows with 12 LEDs per Row = 288 LEDs on a 360w power supply. 90% of 360w is 324w, 90% is max watt output.
(Fans: Say they use the remaining 36w divided by 6 fans, makes them 6w per fan which leaves you 288w for all the LEDs)

324w minus the 36w of fans = 288w remaining for LEDs

That leaves, 1w provided to each of the 288 - 3w(rated) LEDs?

Just some quick math, please clarify.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

400w HID CMH (460w actual usage)

[Units/Upfront Cost]
$150 ballast (400w S51 TYPE)
$50 reflector (LumeWing)
$70 bulb (I found them as low as $52)

[Power Usage] (@ $0.14 Per kWh)
$10.82 a week Veg @ 24 Hr/Day
$5.41 a week Flower @ 12 Hr/Day

[Veg/Flower Time(wks)]
15.66 weeks of Veg each year = $166.44

36.34 weeks of Flower each year = $196.59
___________________________________
$363.03 for power for 1 year

$3384.24 for 8 years with 4 years life left on the ballast (includes $480 price for reflector, ballast and 4 bulbs (2 years each bulb)

[Side Topic]
11365 Hrs of bulb life used over 2 years or 56.82% bulb life used in 2 years - 20000 Hr rated CMH bulbs
(Another bulb will run you $70 and you are off and running for another 2 years.)

very cool bro. not great of a difference. i really want to see CMH go against leds since CMH seems to make some supper frosty buds. i would love to see a none very CMH grow. ive been trying to talk my friend into running two 400w CMH setups instead of his one 1000w hps setup. quality is everything to me on my grows and would go with what ever light give me the best quality even if it cost me a little more on power. i would also like to see what the temp difference is between the 2? seem like the 180w led panels would be a great match for a 250w none vert CHM grow.

very cool math skills my friend thats a good read for sure thanks for taking the time to do that for us.