Winging It In Winter By The Window: Soil Auto Grow

[InTheShed]

I've lifted the bag on top of a roll of duct tape to aerate the underside.

Plants in pots should always be off the ground/saucer/etc to allow airflow underneath. Duct tape works, but a baking rack would provide more even support.

Yes, start one now in a Dixie cup!

Most folks here tend to work with Solo cups, so I'm starting to think you own stock in the Dixie corporation.

I haven't seen a Dixie cup since about 1976!

Thank you Boo. I am getting my nickers in a twist atm. I'm pretty sure it was @InTheShed who said to go 24 / 7 if my electric bill could handle it. I have faith in Shed to nth when it comes to his weed growing suggestions and now I am torn because you and he have a different view about the hours of light (God I hope I am remembering correctly Shed... my memory is not what it used to be).

I agree with faith in @InTheShed so you do what he said! I'm sorry you are stressing. Deep breath. Things will work out.

I did indeed say that. Cannabis is a C3 plant which needs no dark period for growth:

In C3 plants, which Cannabis Sativa is...

C3 plants:
"The C3 cycle is often referred to as a light-independent reaction to the process of photosynthesis. This is because the C3 cycle is not supplied directly by the photons from the ultimate source of light – the Sun."

The 24-0 schedule might speed up the vegetative growth process some. The downside is the higher power bills.

That said, it only works with plants that are healthy and growing and getting all their nutritional needs met and aren't overlit. If you hit a plant with 24 hours of light it means that it will be eating 24 hours a day. If there isn't enough calcium (for example) in the soil (or the nutes) then the plant will show deficiencies, as yours do.

Since both your plants are having the same problem, I'm wondering if the soil is more of an issue than you think. For example, nothing drains in pots as well as it does outside and it might not be ideal for seedlings.

 

[Carmen Ray]

a baking rack would provide more even support.

Excellent idea
I will look around for a couple of them.

1976!

Um, that's my youth lol. I don't know where I get that from hahaha.

I'm wondering if the soil is more of an issue than you think.

This morning I sent the manufacturer the latest photos and asked if he could think of what could be the cause. He's a very reasonable person. If there is an issue with this batch of soil then he likely would have seen more of this with his customers. He sells amendments too, so he will hopefully have a solution for me. I'll have to wait until Monday I think. So they'll have changed for the better or worse by then I'm sure... hopefully the former.

I did indeed say that. Cannabis is a C3 plant which needs no dark period for growth

That's very cool to know. Thank you Shed

 

[Jon]

Thank you Jon. I have not got the entire pot wet until now, which is 3.5 weeks above ground after up-potting to the final 20 L pot. I have watered as per your description from the beginning, and my concern is that I may have allowed the solo cup and big pot to become too dry in my efforts not to over-water. Yesterday was the first time I wet my bigger girl's pot to run-off. As I say, I look forward to watching how you do things. It will be comparable and relevant yes. I am sure you will help many people with an instruction manual if it has photographs and concise descriptions. I didn't have any of these issues with photoperiod plants, so it is quite upsetting for me to see these plants so unhappy. And I have had three dud seeds so far too. I have never before had difficulty sprouting I am still holding out for a recovery.

Ah. Okay, well then we'll see how it goes. If it is that you've been underwatering, congratulations. You might be the first person to ever UNDERwater to the point of a problem. (lol, that's a joke sort of, it's just that usually it's the opposite problem with almost everyone). It's easily fixed, and yes, hold out, they want to recover. You're on the right track.

 

[Jon]

Plants in pots should always be off the ground/saucer/etc to allow airflow underneath. Duct tape works, but a baking rack would provide more even support.

Most folks here tend to work with Solo cups, so I'm starting to think you own stock in the Dixie corporation.

I haven't seen a Dixie cup since about 1976!


I did indeed say that. Cannabis is a C3 plant which needs no dark period for growth:

In C3 plants, which Cannabis Sativa is...

C3 plants:
"The C3 cycle is often referred to as a light-independent reaction to the process of photosynthesis. This is because the C3 cycle is not supplied directly by the photons from the ultimate source of light – the Sun."

The 24-0 schedule might speed up the vegetative growth process some. The downside is the higher power bills.

That said, it only works with plants that are healthy and growing and getting all their nutritional needs met and aren't overlit. If you hit a plant with 24 hours of light it means that it will be eating 24 hours a day. If there isn't enough calcium (for example) in the soil (or the nutes) then the plant will show deficiencies, as yours do.

Since both your plants are having the same problem, I'm wondering if the soil is more of an issue than you think. For example, nothing drains in pots as well as it does outside and it might not be ideal for seedlings.

@InTheShed, LOL!!! I never even thought about that, but you're absolutely right!! Lmao. I guess Dixie cups to me are like Frisbees. A Frisbee isn't a THING, it's a BRAND of a thing. Today's brand of the plastic starter cup of choice is most definitely a SOLO cup. Lmao. Do they even make Dixie cups anymore? I think I've seen little paper ones by them in bathrooms maybe....

 

[Jon]

Excellent idea
I will look around for a couple of them.

Um, that's my youth lol. I don't know where I get that from hahaha.

This morning I sent the manufacturer the latest photos and asked if he could think of what could be the cause. He's a very reasonable person. If there is an issue with this batch of soil then he likely would have seen more of this with his customers. He sells amendments too, so he will hopefully have a solution for me. I'll have to wait until Monday I think. So they'll have changed for the better or worse by then I'm sure... hopefully the former.

That's very cool to know. Thank you Shed

@Carmen Ray, fyi, I began running veg at 24/0 after digesting this exact statement and explanation from @InTheShed, and I don't care about the power bills. Since I began doing that, in my opinion just to watch them grow, I believe I have seen improved veg growth. Not sure. But definitely not worse. With autos at that same time I began running 24/0 until I see pistils, then switch to 20/4 (C3 or not, I think they need rest in flower). With autos I definitely see better veg growth. It was one of the better changes I've made imho.

 

[InTheShed]

@InTheShed, LOL!!! I never even thought about that, but you're absolutely right!! Lmao. I guess Dixie cups to me are like Frisbees. A Frisbee isn't a THING, it's a BRAND of a thing. Today's brand of the plastic starter cup of choice is most definitely a SOLO cup. Lmao. Do they even make Dixie cups anymore? I think I've seen little paper ones by them in bathrooms maybe....

I remember Dixie cups in our bathroom growing up so I could rinse my mouth after brushing my teeth...after that, I never saw them again!

Frisbees, however, are an actual thing. There is no other flying disc that is anything like a Frisbee.

 

[TorturedSoul]

No, I am growing in LOS so ph is not relevant.

Acid rain leaches nutrients out of the garden soil .

 

[TorturedSoul]

Plants in pots should always be off the ground/saucer/etc to allow airflow underneath. Duct tape works, but a baking rack would provide more even support.

Most folks here tend to work with Solo cups, so I'm starting to think you own stock in the Dixie corporation.

I haven't seen a Dixie cup since about 1976!


I did indeed say that. Cannabis is a C3 plant which needs no dark period for growth:

In C3 plants, which Cannabis Sativa is...

C3 plants:
"The C3 cycle is often referred to as a light-independent reaction to the process of photosynthesis. This is because the C3 cycle is not supplied directly by the photons from the ultimate source of light – the Sun."

The 24-0 schedule might speed up the vegetative growth process some. The downside is the higher power bills.

That said, it only works with plants that are healthy and growing and getting all their nutritional needs met and aren't overlit. If you hit a plant with 24 hours of light it means that it will be eating 24 hours a day. If there isn't enough calcium (for example) in the soil (or the nutes) then the plant will show deficiencies, as yours do.

Since both your plants are having the same problem, I'm wondering if the soil is more of an issue than you think. For example, nothing drains in pots as well as it does outside and it might not be ideal for seedlings.

Cannabis can function as a C3 or C4 plant. If I had to guess, my guess would be that it evolved long enough ago that the species went through one or more... planet-wide (or at least very widespread) "disaster events," and the plants that were also able to use the alternate pathway were the ones that survived to produce offspring.

There have been a couple experimental studies - with autoflowering plants - that used different light schedules. This was static; same schedule from seed to harvest, and no change in intensity or spectrum. The groups were grown at 18/6, 20/4, and 24/0. The yield from the 20/4 group were higher. In the repeat, the same results were observed.

However, two runs does not guarantee a thing.

I do not know which strains (there were more than one, with each group consisting of the same number of each strain, to try to allow for the variability of seed-grown plants). I also do not know the DLI attained, therefore I've no idea whether the 20/4 group outperformed the 18/6 group due to the latter simply not receiving enough light each day. I gave credence to the study results when I read the abstract three or four years ago. However, if I was doing such a study, I might decide to ensure that each group received the same amount of light per day, meaning that the plants receiving less hours' of light would receive more light at any one time that they were being illuminated. Conversely, I would also want to ensure that none of the plants were receiving any more light-energy than they could actually process. It might be that redoing the experiment with three sets of three groups of plants (each set having different - but the same across that set - of light energy levels) would produce some different result in one or more sets. <SHRUGS> Or not, lol.

Informally (no real record-keeping over time involved), I have gotten the feeling that plants with no period of uninterrupted darkness do not seem to get as tall. Which, depending on circumstances, could be looked at as a good thing. On the other hand, if one plant gets taller than another plant, and the stems of both fully fill in with flowers, then I assume the taller plant would be the more productive. Again, I didn't keep records, so this is just speculation. For a time, I was doing constant-light growth phase, but ended up deciding that I wasn't seeing increased yield (was my goal; I was dealing at the time), but was buying more electricity. So I went back to the more traditional 18/6.

 

[Jon]

Cannabis can function as a C3 or C4 plant. If I had to guess, my guess would be that it evolved long enough ago that the species went through one or more... planet-wide (or at least very widespread) "disaster events," and the plants that were also able to use the alternate pathway were the ones that survived to produce offspring.

There have been a couple experimental studies - with autoflowering plants - that used different light schedules. This was static; same schedule from seed to harvest, and no change in intensity or spectrum. The groups were grown at 18/6, 20/4, and 24/0. The yield from the 20/4 group were higher. In the repeat, the same results were observed.

However, two runs does not guarantee a thing.

I do not know which strains (there were more than one, with each group consisting of the same number of each strain, to try to allow for the variability of seed-grown plants). I also do not know the DLI attained, therefore I've no idea whether the 20/4 group outperformed the 18/6 group due to the latter simply not receiving enough light each day. I gave credence to the study results when I read the abstract three or four years ago. However, if I was doing such a study, I might decide to ensure that each group received the same amount of light per day, meaning that the plants receiving less hours' of light would receive more light at any one time that they were being illuminated. Conversely, I would also want to ensure that none of the plants were receiving any more light-energy than they could actually process. It might be that redoing the experiment with three sets of three groups of plants (each set having different - but the same across that set - of light energy levels) would produce some different result in one or more sets. <SHRUGS> Or not, lol.

Informally (no real record-keeping over time involved), I have gotten the feeling that plants with no period of uninterrupted darkness do not seem to get as tall. Which, depending on circumstances, could be looked at as a good thing. On the other hand, if one plant gets taller than another plant, and the stems of both fully fill in with flowers, then I assume the taller plant would be the more productive. Again, I didn't keep records, so this is just speculation. For a time, I was doing constant-light growth phase, but ended up deciding that I wasn't seeing increased yield (was my goal; I was dealing at the time), but was buying more electricity. So I went back to the more traditional 18/6.

Hi @TorturedSoul - I can anecdotally support this. I've grown autos start to finish at 18/6, 20/4, and 24/0. Time and time again the 20/4 gives me the best yield and results. This is the first time I vegged autos at 24/0 then switched at pistils to 20/4, so we'll see what happens there. If Titan is any indicator the results are good so far. I also have a Jack Herer auto that was vegged at 24/0 and is flowering at 12/12 with the photos as my other current experiment, jury is out on that still too.

Regarding how you would choose to control the experiment....seems to me they missed the true thing to be gleaned from the experiment/comparison. If one was to do it like you suggest, is that not the same thing as making sure the DLI is exactly the same for each regardless of hours of light? That's what you suggest, yes? Okay, I get that. But really I think it's about disproving (this word is too strong - arguing against might be better) the whole DLI thing. If all it was about was achieving daily DLI and that was it, no question, all else is waste, as some suggest, then why would the results ever vary? Everyone gives their autos enough light to achieve their DLI in 18 hours. Why then the difference in results? I think DLI is overrated and not fully understood. I also think exceeding the DLI, if done correctly (not sure what that is yet, lol), is NOT waste.

Just thinking out loud here, NOT trying to start a controversy or invite a bunch of angst.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Yes, sort of. Determine how much light-energy they can process at any one time, and see they do not get more than that; determine the best DLI, and ensure they receive that amount. Use a strain that you're able to do both of those things whilst still being able to vary the light schedule. And observe whether a 20/4 schedule still appears to give the heaviest yield. Assuming that it's possible to meet those conditions, of course. I assume so, because we hit photoperiodic strains with a lot of light on just 12 hours during the flowering phase.

 

[InTheShed]

Running that test with auto seeds sounds pretty unscientific to me. Not only are you probably dealing with some random hybrid to begin with, you are breeding in a ruderalis plant with very little THC that lives in a climate that doesn't resemble the test conditions at all. Were the photoperiod versions of these plants genetically used to short days or long days, equatorial or Canadian eh?

 

[TorturedSoul]

From what I've read, they get a fair amount of light in the regions that ruderalis comes from, even have the occasional hot Summer day. Those summers are just short.

I don't remember precisely why autos were used. Perhaps the person simply favored them, or maybe he thought it might save some time (which is somewhat debatable, I suppose, since any cannabis plant can enter the flowering phase when it reaches sexual maturity). Oh, wait - because the experiment was done to see which light cycle was the most productive, and photos just keep on growing under those light schedules, lol. I wasn't really thinking, I guess.

As I mentioned, multiple strains were used, and multiple plants of each. It's possible that the lock of the draw could still have screwed the pooch, but the guy did go to some effort to minimize the likelihood, at least.

Speaking of autos, and ruderalis, I assume that the start of its natural region's growing "season" is not near-constant light, since that's a cyclical thing. Just as the entire Winter is not "sun barely seen," only the middle. This causes me to wonder whether starting the things out under a shorter day schedule might provoke a somewhat lengthier growth phase. Merely idle curiosity, of course. I'd like to have a 5,000 square foot facility - and rather large budget - at my disposal to try different things simultaneously, but... these days, I'd be happy with some clones of Simon's Bubble Gum strain in pop bottles that I could stick in a darkened trash can for twelve hours a day until I could harvest three or four budcicles.

Your mention of equatorial strains... They're sort of like the reverse of ruderalis, in a way. They get a constant 12/12, but grow to some size before flowering. I can't grow them outside, because they're really only getting a decent start at flowering when it gets cold and rainy. People on the equator have issues with indica stains, because they want to flower too soon. Ruderalis stains have been available commercially for a long time (Ben Dronkers' Sensi Seeds has had two of them since... the late '90s?), but they were just a curiosity for the most part. Then people began doing more work with them, and I expected them to sort of end up as "an outdoor-friendly kind of thing." Kind of funny that more are probably grown indoors than out, huh? But one need not be overly careful about light contamination, and they can be grown alongside one's mother plants - or pretty much as a regular houseplant. Now, if I could only convince my elderly mother that they were some sort of salad green. . . .

 

[InTheShed]

Garbage can SOG sounds like a great idea!

 

[TorturedSoul]

I did that exact thing with Serious Bubble Gum once, lol. Except they were cut off milk jugs. Big aluminum trash can, with a lid. Worried about mold the entire time, but got lucky. Was just screwing around, really.

People used to actually grow in the things. Used to be, you could find people growing with relatively low-wattage HIDs. Now it's uncommon to see even a 250-watt one, let alone a 150- or 70-watt grow. Not nearly as efficient, of course, but you could pick up a dresser at a yard sale, knock the bottoms out of the drawers, glue what remained in place, and put hinges on the back. Park an aquarium on top. Anything. Just for sh!ts and giggles.

 

[TorturedSoul]

I'm officially an old fart. I have more boring memories than exciting plans.

 

[Carmen Ray]

Acid rain leaches nutrients out of the garden soil .

Lol, why are you making fun of that? Am I wrong about this too now?

the plants that were also able to use the alternate pathway were the ones that survived to produce offspring

That's a plausible theory TS.

I do not know which strains (there were more than one, with each group consisting of the same number of each strain, to try to allow for the variability of seed-grown plants). I also do not know the DLI attained, therefore I've no idea whether the 20/4 group outperformed the 18/6 group due to the latter simply not receiving enough light each day. I gave credence to the study results when I read the abstract three or four years ago. However, if I was doing such a study, I might decide to ensure that each group received the same amount of light per day, meaning that the plants receiving less hours' of light would receive more light at any one time that they were being illuminated. Conversely, I would also want to ensure that none of the plants were receiving any more light-energy than they could actually process. It might be that redoing the experiment with three sets of three groups of plants (each set having different - but the same across that set - of light energy levels) would produce some different result in one or more sets. <SHRUGS> Or not, lol.

It gets complicated to run such tests I imagine. I find it a bit mind boggling to think of the permutations. It could only be done in a highly controlled environment right?

For a time, I was doing constant-light growth phase, but ended up deciding that I wasn't seeing increased yield (was my goal; I was dealing at the time), but was buying more electricity. So I went back to the more traditional 18/6.

That's interesting.

I see that there is more discussion after your initial post... I will follow up shortly..........

 

[Carmen Ray]

I don't know what to think about all of that scientific method... complicated and yes a large facility would be required.

Now, if I could only convince my elderly mother that they were some sort of salad green. . . .

I hear you!

Garbage can SOG sounds like a great idea!

Is this a real thing you guys? I can't imagine you are being serious? lol... or are you?

 

[Carmen Ray]

Greetings.

Some feedback from the soil dude. He says it deffo isn't going to be the soil because that is lab tested and he's had no other reports of this issue. He said that it looks to him like over watering and he thinks the autos will be unhappy with the "loadshedding" (random blackouts).

We discussed the possibility of doing a photo run now, alongside the autos, vegging them through June / July then flowering them in August / Sept. I also spoke to LeRugged and he is encouraging me. He says as long as they get their veg time they won't be upset by the loadshedding, and I can either put them out in the beginning of August to flower, or flower them indoors.

So I am wondering if I should wet some photos. I will need help to figure out the light schedule, to get them dried and in jars by latest end Oct? Guests arrive in first week of Nov. I am thinking the shortest veg time possible then the flip by end July? I can either get fem seeds this week (I have looked at a Wedding Cake and a Bruce Banner #2), or else I could sprout some of my Transkei and KZN but that is regular seed. It will be hardier because it is landrace but a pain to sort male and female and can flower for the longest time too. Decisions and choices.... what to do?

@Jon I will need to watch your watering guide closely, no matter what I decide to do going forward, because I sure as eggs mucked the watering up properly this time.

I did say I was "winging it" Sorry for getting the autos wrong guys. I had such high hopes. I don't want to be the weed Walter Mitty.

It's been 4 days since up-pot and 3 since watering the CK and the seedling. I've ordered some cake racks to put the pots on.

 

[BubbaKush909]

Hi Carmen! I hope you're feeling better, change is rarely easy but it gets easier as Trala so eloquently said.

I know you're getting deluged with info and I hesitate to add my 2cents, but I've been thinking what Shed is thinking, there's nothing wrong with your soil per se it may just be too 'hot' for seedlings. This is the theory that I'm working on, I never had issues sprouting plants until I started popping them straight into my version of living, everything soil and all of a sudden I lost 5 out of 8. That's putting a seed that already has a nice tap root directly into the living soil. Prior to this soil I think I'd only lost 2 out of maybe 50 seeds that had already germinated. And the ones that did make it are all on the small side.

If you look at @Jon's soil prep for a seedling it has very benign soil, I don't know if you can get anything like that but my next suggestion would be to try to use some already used soil, the more depleted the better. These babies don't need much to sprout and start growing and at the early stage imo less is more. Good luck Carmen we're all pulling for you!

 

[Carmen Ray]

Hi Carmen! I hope you're feeling better, change is rarely easy but it gets easier as Trala so eloquently said.

I know you're getting deluged with info and I hesitate to add my 2cents, but I've been thinking what Shed is thinking, there's nothing wrong with your soil per se it may just be too 'hot' for seedlings. This is the theory that I'm working on, I never had issues sprouting plants until I started popping them straight into my version of living, everything soil and all of a sudden I lost 5 out of 8. That's putting a seed that already has a nice tap root directly into the living soil. Prior to this soil I think I'd only lost 2 out of maybe 50 seeds that had already germinated. And the ones that did make it are all on the small side.

If you look at @Jon's soil prep for a seedling it has very benign soil, I don't know if you can get anything like that but my next suggestion would be to try to use some already used soil, the more depleted the better. These babies don't need much to sprout and start growing and at the early stage imo less is more. Good luck Carmen we're all pulling for you!

Thanks BK but this is down to human error. I have messed up the watering and training. I spoke to the manufacturer at length this morning. Sorry I really don't want to go on about the soil anymore. It is not a soil issue. Thank you for caring