Winging It In Winter By The Window: Soil Auto Grow

[Azimuth]

She should still be living off the cotyledons, so those marks on her leaves (rusty spots) are a little distressing, but I'm not a good enough diagnostician to know why they're there ...hopefully, we can get her growing, then worry about those spots...they may even go away (or stop progressing) once she starts growing a bit...

Those spots look like a building calcium deficiency. What are you feeding for nutes? Do you have some cal-mag? That's a pretty common deficiency with canna plants so if the nutrients you're feeding don't have enough you can supplement with cal-mag.

You said the plant should still be living off the cotyledons, so maybe that means you haven't started feeding yet. If that is the case your plant is telling you to 'get on it.'

And, a magnesium deficiency often comes along with a calcium deficiency which is why they sell them bottled together.

 

[Azimuth]

This seedling looks worse than yesterday. There is growth but the leaves look horrible.

Funky looking leaves on seedlings like this are often a sign of over-watering.

CK is still droopy and small

Droopy is often a sign of over or under watering, and I'd bet over. That leads to other issues that look like deficiencies so you'll want to get it squared away if that's what it is.

Can you describe your watering practices? How do you determine when and how much to water? How and when do you fertilize, etc.

 

[TorturedSoul]

In case of emergency, break glass... and page @Emilya .

 

[Emilya Green]

I believe that @Azimuth is on to it... I have seen many times when someone in their zeal to not overwater, actually underwater. This seems to be one of those cases.

We need to get the plant growing roots as quickly as possible, and there is an art to it. We first have to give enough water for the plant to work with, but we don't want to overwater either. The solution to this, is learning about and how to use the wet/dry cycle.

Within days of the plant reaching the surface, it can be put to work building its root structure. It doesn't do this by itself, you have to make it happen. Those first few days of life some timid watering is actually called for (I use a sprayer) but once the seedling stops swimming around by day 3 or 4, it is time to water that solo cup to saturation, or to runoff. There should be no fear in doing this, because the plant can handle it, and the secret to not overwatering is to now give the plant time to take care of this sudden abundance of water. It will take 6 or 7 days for the plant to grow enough roots and suck up enough of the water that the soil begins to get dry. When it gets harder for the plant to get the water, it grows new roots to seek out every last drop in that cup, and even on this first cycle, it can do a pretty good job of draining that cup so much that you can barely feel any water weight in there at all.

When the plant has finally earned it, water it slowly, acting like that soil was a sponge and your job is to get every last drop of water in there that you can, until any extra comes out of the bottom as runoff. Stop at that point, but come back in 20 minutes and see if you can get a few more drops in there. Now you are fully watered, and the plant's job again is to use up all of that water and grow big while it is doing it. This second watering cycle will complete much faster, and in 4 days or so, she will need water again.

Continue making your plant earn its water by draining the cup all the way to the bottom, and so that the cup is so light you can't tell with your human senses that there is any water in there at all. Meanwhile, while you might think you are torturing your plant, it is growing huge and reaching for the light... you will know when you have a happy plant.

The wet/dry cycle will shorten each time and soon your plant will be able to drain the water in 48 hours or less. This is when you know that you have a solid rootball in that container and that soon it will be time to uppot into one at least 3x bigger, and then start the wet/dry cycle again, steadily building up bigger and badder root systems as you head toward your final container.

There are some other tricks you can learn about watering, like how to replace soil in the middle of the container with root mass, but you will have to read my watering article to see how its done, complete with pictures and arrows and all the trimmings. The link is below, in my signature. Hope this helps!

 

[DV8]

Plenty good advice being given. But I will tell you this, even clones sometimes get mopey.

Theres just some that decide they are gonna be unhappy. Little non conformists.

My evidence is weak, meaning purely anecdotal and through my own observations, but those mopey ones often get to flower and just sing. Cant speak to Autos really, but definitely photos.

I just add a bit more encouragement.

"Cmon there girl, I know you're gonna throw out beautiful flowers, and all this sadness in veg will be worth it. You can be a star, and everyone will see your true beauty. I believe in you."

The happy ones are alot easier.

Pretty sure @Trala had Maya doing the same mopey business then found her inner goddess in flower.

 

[Carmen Ray]

Funky looking leaves on seedlings like this are often a sign of over-watering.


Droopy is often a sign of over or under watering, and I'd bet over. That leads to other issues that look like deficiencies so you'll want to get it squared away if that's what it is.

Can you describe your watering practices? How do you determine when and how much to water? How and when do you fertilize, etc.

Hi Azi. Three days ago I up-potted the CK into nearly dry soil and drew a moat around the outside of the root ball into which I poured 150 ml of water because I didn't want to over- water. The following day you suggested I pour water into the roots, so I poured a small amount. Then Boo suggested I water it until run-off, which I did and then removed the run-off. That was 2 says ago. I have not watered again. The droop occurred overnight after up-potting, before any watering. Her lower leaves may be starting to discolor in the same way as the seedling.
The seedling had dried out so I squeezed 4 syringes of water down the sides and about 2 mls into the center where the root ball is. I did not water that to run-off. The cup is damp not wet.
I have not fertilized the soil as that is not necessary. It is a complete LOS. I did add mycco powder to the initial 150 ml water, and to the initial seedling water. I added 0.2 ml kelp extract to the first 500 mls into the big pot but then watered the rest with plain water.
The plants look worse today.

 

[Skottelgoed Spons]

Hi Azi. Three days ago I up-potted the CK into nearly dry soil and drew a moat around the outside of the root ball into which I poured 150 ml of water because I didn't want to over- water. The following day you suggested I pour water into the roots, so I poured a small amount. Then Boo suggested I water it until run-off, which I did and then removed the run-off. That was 2 says ago. I have not watered again. The droop occurred overnight after up-potting, before any watering. Her lower leaves may be starting to discolor in the same way as the seedling.
The seedling had dried out so I squeezed 4 syringes of water down the sides and about 2 mls into the center where the root ball is. I did not water that to run-off. The cup is damp not wet.
I have not fertilized the soil as that is not necessary. It is a complete LOS. I did add mycco powder to the initial 150 ml water, and to the initial seedling water. I added 0.2 ml kelp extract to the first 500 mls into the big pot but then watered the rest with plain water.
The plants look worse today.

I would say use a (sosatie stick) wooden stick and press it next to your roots into the soil to check how moist your soil is. I make use of this method so that I do not over water my plants like I did with the hindu I lost... Just a suggestion... Really hope they bounce back carmen.

 

[Carmen Ray]

I think the CK will probably straighten herself out, but like Mel & Shed said, stuff happens slowly in soil.

I doubt if it's damaged- it takes more to hurt them than you'd think...
I would tend to err on the side of more water, as opposed to less water, though...I usually give my seedlings what seems like a little too much water, and they do ok.
She should still be living off the cotyledons, so those marks on her leaves (rusty spots) are a little distressing, but I'm not a good enough diagnostician to know why they're there ...hopefully, we can get her growing, then worry about those spots...they may even go away (or stop progressing) once she starts growing a bit...

Thank you Carcass. I hope you guys are right

Hi Carmen don't get discouraged! I've decided that autos require quite a bit of skill to grow well. I thought after growing clones in perlite for years I knew all I needed to know but that was a pipe dream. You only have a few weeks before flower, so to grow them well you need to have everything dialed in from day 1. It takes some doing, and we'll get there!

I hope so BK, we're each other's cheerleaders now with the problems we both face

I believe that @Azimuth is on to it... I have seen many times when someone in their zeal to not overwater, actually underwater. This seems to be one of those cases.

We need to get the plant growing roots as quickly as possible, and there is an art to it. We first have to give enough water for the plant to work with, but we don't want to overwater either. The solution to this, is learning about and how to use the wet/dry cycle.

Within days of the plant reaching the surface, it can be put to work building its root structure. It doesn't do this by itself, you have to make it happen. Those first few days of life some timid watering is actually called for (I use a sprayer) but once the seedling stops swimming around by day 3 or 4, it is time to water that solo cup to saturation, or to runoff. There should be no fear in doing this, because the plant can handle it, and the secret to not overwatering is to now give the plant time to take care of this sudden abundance of water. It will take 6 or 7 days for the plant to grow enough roots and suck up enough of the water that the soil begins to get dry. When it gets harder for the plant to get the water, it grows new roots to seek out every last drop in that cup, and even on this first cycle, it can do a pretty good job of draining that cup so much that you can barely feel any water weight in there at all.

When the plant has finally earned it, water it slowly, acting like that soil was a sponge and your job is to get every last drop of water in there that you can, until any extra comes out of the bottom as runoff. Stop at that point, but come back in 20 minutes and see if you can get a few more drops in there. Now you are fully watered, and the plant's job again is to use up all of that water and grow big while it is doing it. This second watering cycle will complete much faster, and in 4 days or so, she will need water again.

Continue making your plant earn its water by draining the cup all the way to the bottom, and so that the cup is so light you can't tell with your human senses that there is any water in there at all. Meanwhile, while you might think you are torturing your plant, it is growing huge and reaching for the light... you will know when you have a happy plant.

The wet/dry cycle will shorten each time and soon your plant will be able to drain the water in 48 hours or less. This is when you know that you have a solid rootball in that container and that soon it will be time to uppot into one at least 3x bigger, and then start the wet/dry cycle again, steadily building up bigger and badder root systems as you head toward your final container.

There are some other tricks you can learn about watering, like how to replace soil in the middle of the container with root mass, but you will have to read my watering article to see how its done, complete with pictures and arrows and all the trimmings. The link is below, in my signature. Hope this helps!

Thank you for coming to look at the problem Emilya, and for your advice. It's much appreciated. I think I possibly overdid the dry cycle but I honestly don't know. I watered the Caramel King plant until run-off a day after up-potting. She went in with moist soil and should have had enough moisture there in my view, but then the following day she looked droopy and I did the big watering as per your guide, which I have re-read several times. Then I poured off the run-off so the bag wasn't sitting in it. The underside is damp still.

I didn't water the seedling to run-off, rather I used a syringe to aim water around the sides. The soil is packed with nutes, so I can't see it being a feeding issue unless from too little or too much water.

Plenty good advice being given. But I will tell you this, even clones sometimes get mopey.

Theres just some that decide they are gonna be unhappy. Little non conformists.

My evidence is weak, meaning purely anecdotal and through my own observations, but those mopey ones often get to flower and just sing. Cant speak to Autos really, but definitely photos.

I just add a bit more encouragement.

"Cmon there girl, I know you're gonna throw out beautiful flowers, and all this sadness in veg will be worth it. You can be a star, and everyone will see your true beauty. I believe in you."

The happy ones are alot easier.

Pretty sure @Trala had Maya doing the same mopey business then found her inner goddess in flower.

Thank you DV, that's what my plant needs to hear. I've been apologizing to her.

 

[Carmen Ray]

I would say use a (sosatie stick) wooden stick and press it next to your roots into the soil to check how moist your soil is. I make use of this method so that I do not over water my plants like I did with the hindu I lost... Just a suggestion... Really hope they bounce back carmen.

Thanks Skottelgoed. I can try that. What does the stick look like if there is moisture in the soil?

 

[Skottelgoed Spons]

Thanks Skottelgoed. I can try that. What does the stick look like if there is moisture in the soil?

It will have moist brown stains. You will see it immediately. The darker the stain the wetter the soil.

 

[Carmen Ray]

It will have moist brown stains. You will see it immediately. The darker the stain the wetter the soil.

It does, the brown was a couple of inches down. The bottom of the bag is damp. The top is dry. I watered to run-off yesterday. It was the first watering.

This is CK, some of the lower leaves have this spotting.

This is the seedling

 

[Skottelgoed Spons]

It does, the brown was a couple of inches down. The bottom of the bag is damp. The top is dry. I watered to run-off yesterday. It was the first watering.

This is CK, some of the lower leaves have this spotting.

This is the seedling

If I may ask. Do you use tap water and what is the ph balance of your water? Trying to go through my chart of what could cause them to get those spots.

Do you have any meters to test your water with?

 

[Carmen Ray]

If I may ask. Do you use tap water and what is the ph balance of your water? Trying to go through my chart of what could cause them to get those spots.

Do you have any meters to test your water with?

No, I am growing in LOS so ph is not relevant. The Cape Town tap water is fine for growing cannabis and I leave it to stand so that it can dechlorinate before I use it. I used the same water source for my outdoor grow last season and I had two of my plants in this same soil. I Googled brown spots on leaves and there are a bunch of responses all claiming different issues.

 

[Skottelgoed Spons]

This is the closest I could find on those spots you getting on your girls

The Mn looks and describes the closest for those spots. I might be wrong. There could be alot of other possible reasons for this.

 

[Carmen Ray]

This is the closest I could find on those spots you getting on your girls

The Mn looks and describes the closest for those spots. I might be wrong. There could be alot of other possible reasons for this.

Thank you Skottelgoed. I honestly can't believe it is a deficiency unless there was a nutrient lockout due to over or under watering. The LOS is a full meal for the plants.

 

[Skottelgoed Spons]

Thank you Skottelgoed. I honestly can't believe it is a deficiency unless there was a nutrient lockout due to over or under watering. The LOS is a full meal for the plants.

Yeah this is a real strange one you are experiencing carmen. I also can't see that it would be a deficiency but you never know with these plants. Just need to be positive that they will bounce back to growing green and lush.

 

[Azimuth]

When you water, you temporarily displace the air pockets in the medium with low oxygen water so the plant isn't getting oxygen. With strong roots it will absorb some of that water quite quickly pulling down oxygen for the next cycle.

However, if you don't have strong roots the plant can languish a bit. If you can let it dry out it will build stronger roots and be better for the next cycle and get strong with each subsequent one. BUT, if you don't let it dry out, the roots will be weak and spindly and you run the risk of root rot.

So, I would suggest, as hard as it is going to be, that you let that soil dry out. Some breeze over the plant can help, like with a small fan, but you're not trying for wind, just enough to ruffle the leaves a little.

It may take a week or more to fully drain the water and if it does you can  lightly spritz the soil surface with a mister every 3-4 days, but no more good waterings until the cup is dry.

Deficiencies like you are beginning to show can be caused by root damage. The nutrients are there, but the roots can't get them because they're having problems.

So, it will be hard but let them dry out. Your soil has enough nutrients in it that it will recover once the roots do.

 

[DV8]

Without trying to add much more about watering, heres a KISS tip.

If they are wet, and staying wet, which is common in winter, pot tip. I have an L shaped cut piece of white plumbers pipe (PVC I know it as) 100mm diameter, place it under bottom of pot, and just leave pot on an angle for cpl hours.

Here we get wet cold weather with high RH, thats always working against the ideal bands the plants want.

Yellow banded rust coloured spots, Calcium def. Classic sign. Be it a tomato, canna, or zucchini etc, shows up in the same coloured pattern.

LOS is great, but not infallible. Given its shown up this early I think its unlikely to resolve itself. Easily turned around.

Should anyone disagree on diagnosis feel free to correct me.

 

[DV8]

Oh and while Im at it if its mope from uppot and watering its not uncommon. Well not in my grows. I wouldnt be too concerned unless it goes on for more than 36 to 48 hours.

I uppot through containers more than other growers, so might account for why I see it more.

Ive found it happens a lot less if I time the last watering before the uppot around 24 hrs before it goes up. Slides out, straight into a mirrored hole on next pot. Saves a " watering in" post pot placement.

They are heaps more sensitive at the small seedling end than say closing in on veg maturity (staggered nodes).

Any how Ill leave it be from there, winter autos accounts for exactly zero of my first hand experience. Thats the whole reason I subbed in to begin with haha.

 

[Azimuth]

Without trying to add much more about watering, heres a KISS tip.

If they are wet, and staying wet, which is common in winter, pot tip. I have an L shaped cut piece of white plumbers pipe (PVC I know it as) 100mm diameter, place it under bottom of pot, and just leave pot on an angle for cpl hours.

Here we get wet cold weather with high RH, thats always working against the ideal bands the plants want.

Yellow banded rust coloured spots, Calcium def. Classic sign. Be it a tomato, canna, or zucchini etc, shows up in the same coloured pattern.

LOS is great, but not infallible. Given its shown up this early I think its unlikely to resolve itself. Easily turned around.

Should anyone disagree on diagnosis feel free to correct me.

That's great advice, @DV8 ! What you are doing there is reducing the "perched water table" and allowing the bottom part of the soil to hold a bit less water making it easier for the plant to drain whatever's left. In fact, I routinely do that after each thorough watering, I tilt the container to 45 degrees until the excess water runs out. Usually only a few seconds.

And, any object that is about the same height will work even a jar top, piece of wood, a book edge, whatever.

Great idea!!