What is this problem

[bluter]

i decided to do it without pots dont no if that would make a difference

it will. next time try starting in a small rockwool cube and transplant in to the buckets full of hydroton. wash the hydroton off well and simply monitor res ec and ph. go with fewer plants. that plant count is a bit optimistic.

its separate there a slot each corner for a pot

so the roots have access to the res, ie: it drains back through the slot.

the simple answer is as @John C suggests : you will have flush and clean the res as best you can. re-balance nutes. watch your ph and ec. since you are in flower you will have to drain and refresh the res every 2 -3 days or so and re-balance your nutes according to the plants needs.

these systems promise a hands off approach but ultimately require constant vigilance to work successfully

 

[Verbalist]

The issues are that while you have supplied calcium and magnesium, calcium is either not usable by the plants below pH 5.6 or above 6.3 pH. When the reservoir pH rises above 6.3 the dissolved calcium precipitates out of the dissolved solution back into a suspended solid and is unusable being locked out from the usable nutrients

Heh you were reading me!!

 

[bluter]

adding an couple air stones to the res wouldn't hurt either.

 

[AgedMaster]

yes i check ph before i feed including the feed i leave to sit. heres pics of my feed system and plants sorry for quality

the leaves are going brown from centre out the buds are doing nice though

 

[AgedMaster]

adding an couple air stones to the res wouldn't hurt either.

i use a airstone

 

[AgedMaster]

it will. next time try starting in a small rockwool cube and transplant in to the buckets full of hydroton. wash the hydroton off well and simply monitor res ec and ph. go with fewer plants. that plant count is a bit optimistic.



so the roots have access to the res, ie: it drains back through the slot.

the simple answer is as @John C suggests : you will have flush and clean the res as best you can. re-balance nutes. watch your ph and ec. since you are in flower you will have to drain and refresh the res every 2 -3 days or so and re-balance your nutes according to the plants needs.

these systems promise a hands off approach but ultimately require constant vigilance to work successfully

theres a tiny hole in each corner for water drainage and a big hole at front for drainage also the roots dont go in res

 

[AgedMaster]

i resized pic looks a bit clearer

heres a few leaves also

 

[Verbalist]

I’d say thats a combination of Phosphorus deficiency and excess of Calcium. Also seeing just slightly yellowing leave tips which could indicate to some micro nutrient deficiency due the high pH.
Buds looks to be growing and resin all over the place, so K (Potassium) aint lacking which indicates that there are enough nutrients, but some of them are not available due the high pH.

Youre half way through the flowering. You may have to deal with the unstable pH until you harvest them.
If the RW doesn’t settle down and ”get buffered” it might stay like that. So have you actually tried to flush/soak the RW slabs in about 5.5 pH solution? Change res water after the flush as it recycles? Buffering RW during the growth should be doable.

 

[AgedMaster]

Adjustable Recycling Timer

thank you john did not no what they was called

 

[AgedMaster]

I’d say thats a combination of Phosphorus deficiency and excess of Calcium. Also seeing just slightly yellowing leave tips which could indicate to some micro nutrient deficiency due the high pH.
Buds looks to be growing and resin all over the place, so K (Potassium) aint lacking which indicates that there are enough nutrients, but some of them are not available due the high pH.

Youre half way through the flowering. You may have to deal with the unstable pH until you harvest them.
If the RW doesn’t settle down and ”get buffered” it might stay like that. So have you actually tried to flush/soak the RW slabs in about 5.5 pH solution? Change res water after the flush as it recycles? Buffering RW during the growth should be doable.

yes i flushed when i think u advised and it spiked again i think if i go back to using res it will sort ph problem just checked run off back down to 7.5 im using res now going to feed twice per day now from what im reading rockwool needs 2 feeds to keep ph stable i think salts building up because of 1 feed

 

[AgedMaster]

Change res water after the flush as it recycles

i flushed using a 3 ltr jug from 20 ltr bucket filled twice did not use pump i gave them 10 ltrs each by hand slowly

 

[KingJohnC]

i resized pic looks a bit clearer

heres a few leaves also

The small pocked dimples or stippling damage is a calcium deficiency.

The large inner leaf area rust damage appearance is the phosphorous deficiency presenting itself inter marginally.

 

[KingJohnC]

most pre built systems are overpriced, over hyped, over bought, and under perform. i'm guessing that system should run about 2 plants max.

the simple answer is as @John C suggests : you will have flush and clean the res as best you can. re-balance nutes. watch your ph and ec. since you are in flower you will have to drain and refresh the res every 2 -3 days or so and re-balance your nutes according to the plants needs.

these systems promise a hands off approach but ultimately require constant vigilance to work successfully

The majority of growing opportunists lack world experience and are easily mislead by salesman hype inflation of larger harvest volume and greater potency, most who either sell off or abandon the equipment after a failed grow. If you care to see which equipment does not function as promised check the local classified advertisements for used grow equipment, this is where the failures are listed. Salesman sell what they have available to sell promising every advanced concept is realized in the product they just so happen to have available for this $ outlay. For every grow store i have ever visited I have only seen 2 which competently could grow vegetables which bloomed. One store owner a man had a bachelor degree in botany who managed to have tomato plants produce small fruits. The second store had a hose running out of the back supply room across the carpet to the display room laying in full view every time I visited, meaning the hose was used on a constant basis. The owner/manager believed the hose was required to change nutrient solutions, being told by employees that they do not adjust the pH and instead they change the nutrient solution daily. So frequently the hose did not need to be properly stored, that the hose is not a tripping hazard and insurance liability the owner felt less concerned with. This second store had plenty of lush green vegetation similar to a greenhouse and some consumer when visiting this store spread a blight which infected every plant within 1 week which stopped the store from displaying growing vegetable plants for several years after. My point that I am relaying is if the people selling you a promise can not with every available resource to equipment and supplies make the equipment which they are peddling to you function then its is highly unlikely that someone without an already pre existing background in water quality adjustment and maintenance will succeed in their first attempt.

The issue is when 1 of the 3 pillars of the relationship between functioning equipment, plant gardener and the plants fails it is infrequent that is the plant gardener or plant are at cause. Only requiring 1 single outside variable for the equipment systems promised functional ability to be exceeded.

I planed my Aeroponic system for several years ahead of construction to manage and mitigate any problematic issue. In actual use an impeller had cracked which broke, the water pump stopped functioning located in the reservoir below the plants and which I discovered after midnight, realizing then the plants had been in drought condition during the light cycle for 8 hours or greater at 78F.

Hydroponic and aeroponic grow systems are certainly capable of producing wonderful cannabis medicine After preparation for managing the equipment for pH, PPM, temperature humidity qualities. Keeping 2 backup water pumps, 1 full flow size and a second lower volume water pump with sufficient hose length should you have a pump fail to have a replacement on hand ready to change in at midnight and save your cannabis medicine. The smaller pump is for use in an emergent situation to transfer water in or out from container to container or drain. Water pump filter bags to pre filter larger material which prevents impeller destruction and water pump failure.

For growing plants the greatest cost per harvested gram of cannabis are hydroponic systems.

 

[KingJohnC]

I’d say thats a combination of Phosphorus deficiency and excess of Calcium. Also seeing just slightly yellowing leave tips which could indicate to some micro nutrient deficiency due the high pH.
Buds looks to be growing and resin all over the place, so K (Potassium) aint lacking which indicates that there are enough nutrients, but some of them are not available due the high pH.

The growing terminal ends of the leaf as this is the area of a new leaves growth, the leaf tips are where any nutrient burn damage from either excessive nutrient strength or nutrient imbalance will first show.

If the RW doesn’t settle down and ”get buffered” it might stay like that. So have you actually tried to flush/soak the RW slabs in about 5.5 pH solution? Change res water after the flush as it recycles? Buffering RW during the growth should be doable.

Rockwool [stonewool's] other commercial trade name is made from extricated spun molten rock similar to how fibreglass and fibre optical cable are extricated from molten silica. Rockwool itself will raise pH if the rockwool has not been sufficiently flushed to remove contaminates. I suspect the rockwool medium has filtered out many dissolved solids or precipitates from the nutrient solution and is partially responsible for the pH fluctuations. Flushing the rockwool medium by slowly spraying or pouring pH adjusted water to remove dissolved solids and sediment will return the medium to acceptable condition. The water poured through the rockwool should be collected for sample, the sample pH tested to verify the pH of the rockwool is no longer affecting the waters pH. Flush with pH adjusted water until the runoff waters pH no longer changes the pH value.

The single greatest issue is that the reservoir size is undersized for the plant mass and number of plants and it is required to supply. So what is the minimum size that should be used for 4x medium to large cannabis plants through to harvest nothing under 20 US liquid gallons or 75.7082 litres with a top up reservoir with pH adjusted water to add back pH adjusted water and counter balance pH fluctuations.

there are 3.785 litres per 1 US liquid gallon
20 ltr / 3.785 = 5.28344 US liquid gallons
5.28344 US liquid gallons / 4 = 1.32086 liquid gallons per plant

For any of the hydro bucket systems unless the system is plumbed to a ebb and grow style of cyclical flood and drain action where nutrient is pumped through a tubing in and then back out from the bucket returning the nutrient solution back to a common reservoir, a 2.5 - 4.5 gallon bucket is insufficient for large cannabis plants to buffer the pH change for more than 4-6 hours.

I once met a person who while already having gardening experience was told how to construct a hydro bucket system to assemble a 5 gallon double buckets deep water culture or DWC system. Shortly after this person was using the system and his plants began having large nutrient deficiencies which displayed during vegetative growth and became much worsened during flower. 5 gallon buckets filled to 3.9-4.2 US liquid gallon per bucket The only solution was for him to hand water and readjust the nutrient solution in each bucket 5 - 6 times per day/night for each separate plant and entirely change the nutrient solution every 4 - 5 days as each time the pH is adjusted with pH down the nutrients total PPM strength rose to harmful levels. I would not plan a grow system which requires a person to set an alarm 2x at night and 2x wake from sleep every night to keep plants alive performed for months on end. The person pledged he would never do hydroponics again and returned to soil or soiless gardening after this experience. A drain to waste hydroponic system would have reduced the nutrient expense cost required by over 1/3 while removing the constant 5 - 6 time per 24 hour day required pH readjustments.

The information which I am relaying to you is do not be disheartened by the ongoing issues, several hundred thousand people have already dealt with the very same issues your plants are experiencing. Through this teaching experience should you again wish to use hydroponic or aeroponic grow systems you will much greater comprehend the conditional variables and manage these factors.

 

[KingJohnC]

I see.
You circulate same water for 4 plants - everything goes over and over thru the unbuffered RW.
I’d guess over time RW slab gets ”buffered” when you’ve poured enough water/nutrients through it.
But as Rockwool wasn’t buffered and youve poured shit loads of CalMag through, I was thinking if Calcium gets ionized due the RW alkalinity and gets bound to Rockwool. …Which then could neutralize any acid elements/pH stabiliziers(?)

The rockwool is not a buffer and offer no resistant ability to mitigate pH change. Calcium is largely the the most common element which buffers a change in water solution and necessitating the need to overcome the saturation of free calcium in solution to alter pH significantly.
Anion and cation interaction can easily be seen in the periodic table of elements.

After adding either pH up or pH down you must wait for the water buffer to be overcome and come a resting pH. Make pH adjustments slowly until you are able to predict the volume of pH adjusting fluid required per volume of water and allow 12-20 minutes for the pH buffer present to be overcome to allow for a accurate pH test. You are able to verify with testing every 2 - 3 minutes after you add a pH adjusting fluid to your water source and watch the pH initial reading, buffer reaction and final resting pH after the pH buffer has been overcome.

You identified hard water as your water source, without a water quality report from your municipal department of water treatment it is not possible to know which elements in excess are working against or countering the nutrients in your chosen nutrient line and if other elements are bound and/or unusable to the plant locked out from the nutrients solution. Any single element present in excess out of balance ratio is capable of altering the plants nutrient uptake as the plant attempts to limit further excessive uptake using more water than nutrients further raising PPM strength in the nutrient mixture while altering pH of the solution as well.

Several nutrient suppliers have a product designed for use with hard water which may be more suitable to your hard water source.

I just can’t figure out anything else.
If it spikes up to 8.5 it must have something to do with some truly alkaline element.
Even the tap water here in Finland is buffered close to 8pH, to make sure pipes won’t freeze due the alkalinity but those buffers evaporate almost completely amongst with chlorine - as you let the water sit for +24hrs.

The issue is the hard water combined with a reservoir which is too small of volume to support the current plant mass are amplifying pH fluctuations. The most inexpensive solution requires either a large size water distiller capable of distilling more purified water per day than required or water filter and reverse osmosis filter combination to reduce the present mineral and other content to within acceptable range.

Short term working solution is to purchase and haul either distilled or reverse osmosis water in large carboys. Using the distilled or reverse osmosis water to blend with the existing hard water source lowering the PPM to an acceptable level before addition of grow nutrients.

I conversed with a person previously whose hard water supply with only adding pH adjustment was 1200 - 1600 PPM prior to addition of any grow nutrients. In the nation which I reside in hard water sources are common outside from major city's.

 

[AgedMaster]

The growing terminal ends of the leaf as this is the area of a new leaves growth, the leaf tips are where any nutrient burn damage from either excessive nutrient strength or nutrient imbalance will first show.


Rockwool [stonewool's] other commercial trade name is made from extricated spun molten rock similar to how fibreglass and fibre optical cable are extricated from molten silica. Rockwool itself will raise pH if the rockwool has not been sufficiently flushed to remove contaminates. I suspect the rockwool medium has filtered out many dissolved solids or precipitates from the nutrient solution and is partially responsible for the pH fluctuations. Flushing the rockwool medium by slowly spraying or pouring pH adjusted water to remove dissolved solids and sediment will return the medium to acceptable condition. The water poured through the rockwool should be collected for sample, the sample pH tested to verify the pH of the rockwool is no longer affecting the waters pH. Flush with pH adjusted water until the runoff waters pH no longer changes the pH value.

The single greatest issue is that the reservoir size is undersized for the plant mass and number of plants and it is required to supply. So what is the minimum size that should be used for 4x medium to large cannabis plants through to harvest noting under 20 US liquid gallons or 75.7082 litres with a top up reservoir with pH adjusted water to add back pH adjusted water and counter balance pH fluctuations.

there are 3.785 litres per 1 US liquid gallon
20 ltr / 3.785 = 5.28344 US liquid gallons
5.28344 US liquid gallons / 4 = 1.32086 liquid gallons per plant

For any of the hydro bucket systems unless the system is plumbed to a ebb and grow style of cyclical flood and drain action where nutrient is pumped through a tubing in and then back out from the bucket returning the nutrient solution back to a common reservoir, a 2.5 - 4.5 gallon bucket is insufficient for large cannabis plants to buffer the pH change for more than 4-6 hours.

I once met a person who while already having gardening experience was told how to construct a hydro bucket system to assemble a 5 gallon double buckets deep water culture or DWC system. Shortly after this person was using the system and his plants began having large nutrient deficiencies which displayed during vegetative growth and became much worsened during flower. 5 gallon buckets filled to 3.9-4.2 US liquid gallon per bucket The only solution was for him to hand water and readjust the nutrient solution in each bucket 5 - 6 times per day/night for each separate plant and entirely change the nutrient solution every 4 - 5 days as each time the pH is adjusted with pH down the nutrients total PPM strength rose to harmful levels. I would not plan a grow system which requires a person to set an alarm 2x at night and 2x wake from sleep every night to keep plants alive performed for months on end. The person pledged he would never do hydroponics again and returned to soil or soiless gardening after this experience. A drain to waste hydroponic system would have reduced the nutrient expense cost required by over 1/3 while removing the constant 5 - 6 time per 24 hour day required pH readjustments.

The information which I am relaying to you is do not be disheartened by the ongoing issues, several hundred thousand people have already dealt with the very same issues your plants are experiencing. Through this teaching experience should you again wish to use hydroponic or aeroponic grow systems you will much greater comprehend the conditional variables and manage these

thanks for advice john next time i will do one giant plant i checked ph run off after second feed its dropped to 7.2 gona check when lights on if it drops again also the res ph was stable 5.8 dont no how when higher ph water is coming from rockwool into res this is what canna states

CANNA AQUA has been specially developed so that your plant regulates the pH itself and therefore always receives the right combination of nutrients.

It cant as surely i wouldnt have issues

Or it could have been the fact i was putting nutes the wrong way round even canna says to add part A first then part B i was doing it random

 

[KingJohnC]

thanks for advice john next time i will do one giant plant i checked ph run off after second feed its dropped to 7.2 gona check when lights on if it drops again also the res ph was stable 5.8 dont no how when higher ph water is coming from rockwool into res this is what canna states

CANNA AQUA has been specially developed so that your plant regulates the pH itself and therefore always receives the right combination of nutrients.

It cant as surely i wouldnt have issues

Or it could have been the fact i was putting nutes the wrong way round even canna says to add part A first then part B i was doing it random

When growing a single large plant the issue will be similar as the vegetative plant mass being same or greater will still overload the small volume sized reservoir. the reservoir pH stability is on account of the dark cycle of the 24 Hour period when plants do not use or consume great quantity of nutrients and use more water rather than nutrients, combined with lowering the total PPM strength by diluting the mixture with addition pH balanced water. These steps you have taken are working to ease the difficulty your cannabis plants are dealing with consuming hard water and too great PPM strength allowing the plant to use more water component of the mixture as desired.

I have witnessed people who use the CANNA AQUA product line produce high quality cannabis medicine. The CANNA AQUA product line is not based around the usage of hard water as the source for nutrient mixtures. Until approximately 2014 - 2015 few nutrient manufacturers and suppliers made any products for use with hard water as commercial concerns use a desalination or water treatment to reduce mineral content in water supply.

 

[AgedMaster]

b

 

[AgedMaster]

would a flexi tank be ok u can get 250ltr versions and there not to big then i can do run to waste instead of recycling feed i will also get a filter for my water not one that creates sodium

 

[Verbalist]

CANNA AQUA has been specially developed so that your plant regulates the pH itself and therefore always receives the right combination of nutrients.

Almost every nutrient brand advertises themselves as ”pH perfect”.
Now days especially nutrients designed for hydro cultivation has more or less pH stabilizers. But it doesn’t necessary mean that you don’t have to pH your feed.

Or it could have been the fact i was putting nutes the wrong way round even canna says to add part A first then part B i was doing it random

This is important as well. Two part nutrients A part has the Calcium on it, and thus that the bottle which has Ca on it needs to be ALWAYS mixed in first.

Nb! Just googled Canna Aqua A+B analysis and found out they’ve added Silica to the part A. Can you confirm this(?) Read your A and B bottle labels and see which bottle has Silica (Si) on it.

I assume part A has Silica on it. And Silica or concentrate with Silica needs to be mixed always, ALWAYS first. And it needs to be stirred very well to make Silica soluable.
Insoluable Silica bounds Phosphates and makes P unavailable for roots.

Silica also has naturally very high pH (between 7-8) and Silica tends to raise your solution pH.

This could be one major problem solver.