Seriously - What's the best LED setup?

[TorturedSoul]

Growmau5

I think he was a member here for a short time, but got banned for selling product without being a sponsor or something. But I might be thinking of someone else. Brain cells are sluggish in the absence of cannabinoids .

If you have enough PPFD on your canopy, I think you'd be better off adding some Far Red for flower initiation/faster sleep, and blue for power veg/anti-stretch

Yes, but in what ratio? Aren't those the two portions of the spectrum that are a bit "antagonistic" (for lack of a better term) in their effect? Wish I was in better shape right now, doggone it. Trying to remember something feels like trying to... uh... .

 

[PurpleGunRack]

I dont know bro. I watched his videos, and he says the Fusion board gives the emerson effect. Its not big deal man,

Then he's either lying or unaware of what the Emerson effect actually is...

I like the boards and their price, but buy them for the photons and extra red for flowering, if you want an Emerson effect light buy something like the Emerson bar from RapidLED

Yes, but in what ratio? Aren't those the two portions of the spectrum that are a bit "antagonistic" (for lack of a better term) in their effect? Wish I was in better shape right now, doggone it. Trying to remember something feels like trying to... uh... .

No, it's like spectrums work against each other.

If we use 2700K - 4000K white light LED as the main light for full cycle growing, we add Blue during veg and stretch, and Far Red as sleep light during stretch and flower(1 hour at end of day and 15 minutes into dark period), maybe even leave it on during lights on in veg for some Emerson effect possibilities.
As for mass, I'd say that ½ a Far Red mono diode per sq. ft. of space is plenty, and that 1-2 blue per sq. ft. (depending on main light CCT) would be enough.

I've also read that Blue and UV-A make sweet love to each other, but again not enough proper studies, hints to actual quantities needed and possible positive effects to venture into that

 

[Mayne]

Not sure you understand Emerson Effect yourself PGR, as youv said, no research, but infact, there is research concluding that adding 640/680---700/730NM boost photosynthesis by almost 75%.

660-680 alone does very little,
700-720 alone does very little,

Both combined, boosts by 75%

Which is the Emerson Effect.

So, if your using a 720 Nm, but you dont have the 680, then your not into emerson effect. Fusion board DOES have these waves, on the same board, which then inturn, give you the emerson effect.

Now, when you have the high Blue 430nm, and the 660nm, both, hits both ChA&B, whitch inturn gets the best of growth, then adding Emerson, ( 680&720) boost EVERYTHING by 75% in Photosynthesis.

High blue value REDUCES stretch, so adding blue, will stop stretch,..

High90 CRI of 3000K and ADDED 700-720nm would be needed for emerson effect

emerson.png

• Mayne
• Apr 1, 2018

 

[Mayne]

and make note to this PGR, Im not tryin to get in a pissing match with ya, Im just relaying information Im finding myself. This is maybe why, the tug-of-war with LEDs and whats best, is so gray area.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Have you (or Purple Gun Rack) got a source other than the original study by Emerson? IIRC, he used aquatic algae for his experimentation - so one might posit that the response curve would be somewhat different (water attenuates different wavelengths of light at different rates, and such species presumably have evolved to take best advantage of the spectrum of light that tends to actually reach them - which is not likely to be an issue with land-based plants). I think the guy died before really completing his studies.

A lot of people (me included ) have been known to parrot secondhand information that they've found via the Internet. Which is cool, as far as that goes, lol. But if the people who created those nice charts merely prettied up the original 60-year old study (or did the same thing to someone else's reports if they were merely copying that study), then I'd guess it's still somewhat theoretical in regards to cannabis, specifically. However, if those graphics came from someone who either experimented directly on cannabis - or, at least, chloroplasts from land-based plants - or pulled the information from someone else who did... then I would give it more credence.

Of course, I'd give the highest level of credence to a study that used cannabis plants instead of just their chlorplasts (or another land-based species').

Come to think of it, @Icemud did a grow journal a while back specifically to study the Emerson Effect and how it relates to the cannabis plant. I don't remember any specifics, other than he used some specialized LED product or other as part of his lighting. Maybe he'll swing by and give a capsule summary of what he learned and what his results were, if he's not terribly busy these days, IDK.

 

[PurpleGunRack]

and make note to this PGR, Im not tryin to get in a pissing match with ya, Im just relaying information Im finding myself. This is maybe why, the tug-of-war with LEDs and whats best, is so gray area.

I certainly don't see it as such @Mayne , just a discussion that hopefully brings out the ins and outs of the matter, so we all get more pieces of the puzzle

Sorry if I come across as a know-it-all, the only thing I know for sure is not to trust LED salesmen

And hey I was thinking about building an Emerson effect lamp mere days ago, a little digging into how to build it, and I couldn't find a proper ratio of diodes just guesstimates, and the more I read about it the less I wanted to chase it.

Not sure you understand Emerson Effect yourself PGR, as youv said, no research, but infact, there is research concluding that adding 640/680---700/730NM boost photosynthesis by almost 75%.

I've read the wiki page and a whole lot more and read the copy/paste of it on a dozen grow light shop sites....

This research is very old (1950's) and (for the Emerson effect part) lacking in many areas:

-The research compare two narrow spectrums individually and both combined, NOT ADDED to a main grow light.
The 75% is Red and Far Red combined compared to Red alone.

- ONLY these two spectrums are used, which nobody does when growing plants indoor or out, lets see the same test while also showering the plants with 1000 PPFD, most definitely not gonna boost photosynthesis by 75% in this case

- Not done on 1000's of full grows, not even done on a single cannabis grow

- How much Far Red, how much extra Photo Red, and how big a percentage of the total light output is necessary?
There are no studies or tests on this so how could we know, and then how do we utilize it to our advantage?

- Try to visualize a 75% increase in plant size, grow/flower speed, yield, or a combination, if I told you about 20w of monos added could do that, would you believe me?



I'm not saying it doesn't have an effect, but how big is the effect, and is it cost effective? And how well are we using it? Could a little tweak in spectrum or time applied make it much better, or worse?

I would love for these things to have an effect, but it's most likely very subtle in day to day home growing, if detectable at all, and without a serious study with many repetions and control subjects we're just stumbling in the dark.

To some extent we can try to mimic the sun, but where on the planet? Pretty obvious if you're growing an African landrace sativa, but what about a poly hybrid that has only ever seen artificial light for decades?

Hopefully some proper independent testing will be done soon, so we can fine tune our lights to growing cannabis.

 

[Mayne]

No doubt PGR, I agree.

I know Growmau5 did a grow that was aimed at emerson effect, havent had a chance to go thru and watch it for the 30th time yet, LOL..

But like you said, many studies over a lentgh of time, a true, hardcore study. I wasnt much into it either, but now i am. lol..

 

[Old Salt]

Hopefully some proper independent testing will be done soon, so we can fine tune our lights to growing cannabis.

There`s enough evidence supporting the use of far red to initiate flowering and putting plants to sleep, that I've sprung for them. It added $67.50 USD to the cost of my DIY light.

 

[Mayne]

I think i might build a light bar, with just Full spec diodes. ( 380-830)

When i modded my Mars300 with the diodes, I put in some of these diodes, and Im wondering if that is what made it grow so fast and giant leafs, in a short period of time.

 

[PurpleGunRack]

There`s enough evidence supporting the use of far red to initiate flowering and putting plants to sleep, that I've sprung for them. It added $67.50 USD to the cost of my DIY light.

Exactly, and you can actually see the plants physically reacting to this at lights out

I'm still doing the Far Red part of the build I had planned, with 8x Cree XT-E Far Red diodes, a Meanwell APC-16-700 driver and some aluminium channel - easy done
For my future strip builds I will add one or two aluminium channels to each lamp so I can add extra monos later on

I think i might build a light bar, with just Full spec diodes. ( 380-830)

When i modded my Mars300 with the diodes, I put in some of these diodes, and Im wondering if that is what made it grow so fast and giant leafs, in a short period of time.

Never heard of those, but just checked them out and it seems they actually onlu have spikes in blue and red rather than full spectrum, so that could be like adding blue+uv and red+far red to your COBs which have plenty light in the green-yellow-orange spectrum.

FullSpectrumDiode.jpg

• PurpleGunRack
• Apr 2, 2018

400nm - 840nm

 

[Mayne]

Greeat find PGR, i was looking for that graph, and it does seem to have what Im looking for. Just those peaks and the far red is of interest, like you said, my cob will fill in the rest.

hummmmmmm, I already have drivers from my old Mars300 that could work perfectly..

 

[Big Sparks]

 

[TTKlaus]

If 90% accuracy is good enough, you don't need a meter....

I agree. You don't really need a meter to grow. But you do absolutely need a meter to build and design grow lights. I was dabbing in the dark until I bought a meter.

TTKlaus

 

[Stltoed]

I got really high hopes on chilleds logic 100w boards. I hope they yield well. So that's my advice.

I recently saw those. Pretty slick, but if I'm not mistaken they are 3000k not a good veg color

 

[Stltoed]

This is a conversation that has a million right answers.

If I had a 10x10, I would definately build my answer. Cobs are too efficient, and cost is cheap compared to the fixture building companies. I presently use Black Dog, believe me when I say they are less expensive. I would probably go with 4-6 smaller light fixtures instead of 1 or 2 large fixtures because every grow will be different, some will last longer than others. Plant shapes vary so, a bunch of smaller lights are easier to move into to best location. You can turn some off if needed.

Cobs do have an issue, and that is the color temp is pretty one sided. For me, i would augment a 4000k-4500K set of lights with some serious red elements to finish off the plants. Maybe with QB, or give the QB the veg duty and finish with the red spectrum cobs

I've used G8, Spectrum King, a few different Platinum and finally Black Dog. I have also tried CMH. I will be building a set of cobs some day

 

[Stltoed]

Exactly, and you can actually see the plants physically reacting to this at lights out

I'm still doing the Far Red part of the build I had planned, with 8x Cree XT-E Far Red diodes, a Meanwell APC-16-700 driver and some aluminium channel - easy done
For my future strip builds I will add one or two aluminium channels to each lamp so I can add extra monos later on




Never heard of those, but just checked them out and it seems they actually onlu have spikes in blue and red rather than full spectrum, so that could be like adding blue+uv and red+far red to your COBs which have plenty light in the green-yellow-orange spectrum.

FullSpectrumDiode.jpg

• PurpleGunRack
• Apr 2, 2018

400nm - 840nm

If you guys are interested, Rapid LED has a ready made Emerson effect light that you can pick up for $100. It has the two red spectrums and looks like an easy way to set the record straight. Go buy one I want to see how it works. Haha

 

[Old Salt]

If you guys are interested, Rapid LED has a ready made Emerson effect light that you can pick up for $100. It has the two red spectrums and looks like an easy way to set the record straight. Go buy one I want to see how it works. Haha

I looked at it, and decided to include the individual LEDs instead. It's more work, but fits my light better.

 

[Stltoed]

I looked at it, and decided to include the individual LEDs instead. It's more work, but fits my light better.

Right on. Some interesting stuff. I want to build something

 

[PurpleGunRack]

I recently saw those. Pretty slick, but if I'm not mistaken they are 3000k not a good veg color

3000K is awesome for veg, plenty blue in there, best full cycle CCT you can get, and easy to add some signalling wavelengths with a handsul of monos

Cobs do have an issue, and that is the color temp is pretty one sided. For me, i would augment a 4000k-4500K set of lights with some serious red elements to finish off the plants. Maybe with QB, or give the QB the veg duty and finish with the red spectrum cobs

Actually this is not the case, 2700k - 5000k is ''full spectrum'', look at how blurples add green, yellow and white diodes to balance out the blue and red, many blurples are actually on the red side of 3000K.

QB288_388_spectrum_85ab6da3-96b2-4c3f-afc7-3fb6601c32ea_1024x1024

• PurpleGunRack
• Jan 9, 2018

fluence-PAR-600.jpg

• PurpleGunRack
• Mar 27, 2018

plant-lighting-2.jpg

• PurpleGunRack
• Mar 27, 2018

Plant Absorption Peaks PAR & McCree curves Vs Sunlight.png

• PurpleGunRack
• Mar 27, 2018

've used G8, Spectrum King, a few different Platinum and finally Black Dog. I have also tried CMH

You ain't seen nothing yet DIY white light LED will blow these away, use less power and run cooler without noisy fans

If you guys are interested, Rapid LED has a ready made Emerson effect light that you can pick up for $100. It has the two red spectrums and looks like an easy way to set the record straight. Go buy one I want to see how it works. Haha

Yes, but you have to have 2 channels on it to have the Far Red on 15 minutes after lights out, which is what we want for flower initiation, so the puck or a pure Far Red add-on would be my preference.

Emerson effect is speeding up photosynthesis, and I recently read that Blue and Far Red should work a lot better than Photo Red and Rar Red, still so much doubt about how and how well this actually works, and if it's worthwhile buying/building supplemental lamps for.

Actually seeing an effect from the Emerson thing is difficult since it's more subtle, the flower/sleep initiator with only Far Red is clearly visible and happens within minutes

I like the solderless monos, just slap some thermal tape on it and stick on some aluminium channel, get a $5 driver and you're up and running


Also @Stltoed I recommend you build with strips, you get the best diodes and best possibilities to cover your space perfectly and they're cheap compared to COBs and QBs

 

[CraZysWeeD]

I will complement the logic 100 boards with my blurpy led array. Hope they will match pretty slick together.