Radogast 2 - Return of the Clones

As I understand it, DE will kill anything larger than a flea that is chitinous, slithery or clumsy.
Spiders will be ok. Worms will get their guts tore up.

Most of the soil food web, (mycelium, microorganisms, molds and webby stuff, etc. ) will be fine.

BUT ... My knowledge is sciency book knowledge, which is why I never heard about a DE puffer until this year. :)
From a company named Golden Harvest Organics (they were the first thing that popped up on Google and they had what I was looking for).

"Diatomaceous Earth will not harm warm-blooded animals or earthworms
Earthworm farmers use it to treat their worm beds for parasites, fungus gnat larva etc. Earth worms are structurally different from insects in that they can actually digest particles of DE. The particles are then eliminated in their castings."

We're talking about food quality DE. The DE used for pool filtration has been treated to crystallize the diatoms and likely would be dangerous to worms.
 
You have no idea how impressed I am by the fine system you assembled for your girls, SweetSue.
I almost used the word envious, but if I were truly envious I would have built new soil by now.
Rest assured I am VERY IMPRESSED. :green_heart::circle-of-love::green_heart:

One thing I am not ready to change is my desire to be nearly self-sustaining indoors as I try to be outdoors.
I have raw inputs of living soil, leaves, trees, moss, compost, sand and worm castings. Also left over bat guano and myco.

Do you have a recommendation for making a no till, reusable, living soil from these?

(That's an open question for anyone, not just SweetSue.)

The basic soil mix is equal parts sphagnum peat moss, humus and aeration. If you already have viable living soil I'm assuming you want to make a larger batch? If you already have pots of living soil and it's adequately mineralized and has a balance of nutrients I would assume you could simply let them run as a no-till. What super charges my soil is the balance of additives. The recipe I followed:

Clakamas Coots soil mix (in his own words)

"Equal parts of Sphagnum peat moss, some aeration deal (pumice, rice hulls, lava rock - whatever is sitting in the garage) and finally some mix of humus - my compost, worm castings some black leaf mold I bought from the local 'worm guy'
To each 1 c.f. of this mix I add the following:
1/2 cup organic Neem meal
1/2 cup organic Kelp meal
1/2 cup Crab meal (or Crustacean meal when available - it has Shrimp meal with the Crab meal. It's a local product from the fisheries on the Oregon & Washington Coasts)
4 cups of some minerals - rock dust

After the plant is in the final container I top-dress with my worm castings at 2" or so and then I hit it with Aloe vera juice and Comfrey extract. Or Borage. Or Stinging Nettle. Or Horsetail ferns. Whatever is ready.


The Rock Dust Recipe
4x - Glacial Rock Dust - Canadian Glacial (Gaia Green label)
1x - Bentonite - from the pottery supply store
1x - Oyster Shell Powder - the standard product from San Francisco Bay
1x - Basalt - from Redmond, Oregon (new product at Concentrates - about $18.00) ."

I believe that this recipe allows for some substitutions and that the biggest thing is to stick to the 1/3 SPM, 1/3 aeration, 1/3 humus and the amendments at the specified ratios. I have seen people (including myself) vary the actually "rock dusts" but don't if you can help it, and certainly don't omit the oyster shell flour in place of something else."


If you're serious about a no-till organic container you may have to source beyond what you have on hand, but you already have many of the basic components. Feed the bat guano to the worms, in small doses. The advantage to following this time-proven recipe is that you only have to do it once, at least until you decide to expand the garden and add more containers. The myco is always a welcome inoculant when planting to jump start the myco colony establishment around the new roots. Aeration can be as simple as a bag of lava rock from the local home improvement store. Glacial rock dust can be sourced at a local quarry. You have the humus part covered. Be as diverse as you can. When I built mine I kept thinking about diversity of size, texture and shape, trying to make a wide range of little crevices for the micro herd. I had this sense that different organisms would be drawn to particular types of particulates. But the neem meal, kelp meal, crab meal, bentonite, basalt and oyster shell powder will have to be outsourced. I made it easy on myself and invested a small amount of money in a nutrient kit with that balance of additives. Now I'm set for years and years.

Once you've established a no-till container it's the EWC you create that keeps it running. Sure, we use sprouted seed teas to enhance enzyme action and occasional botanical or compost teas and some coconut water or aloe vera water, but those are simply icing on the cake. We are compelled to keep trying to tweak it just a little more and the teas give us the satisfaction we crave to tinker. Although they will enhance the soil, with good, balanced soil and regular top dressing with hearty EWC you really only need to water. Those worms you just started are your soil community's best friends.

I admire your intent to be self-sustaining. It's possible that with good EWC you could make any soil work. We just know that this recipe works wonders, so why mess with success? You could experiment and show the cannabis world that something else is possible.

That was a bit longer than I intended Rad. :laugh: This LOS thing becomes a passion. :green_heart:
 
I invited the passion Sue !

I've spent the last year trying to learn how to grow in a forest. What low light means.
Immersing myself in Permaculture, permanent agriculture.
Playing with principles like "the earth knows how to grow better than man."
Balancing with, "But the earth wants to keep growing a maple forest" and I want a bird, butterfly and human food paradise.

And I didn't know to do any of that outdoor stuff, and I ignored the indoor girls and failed them.


AERATION was what I wanted in the last soil
I went 1/3 pro-mix (which is moss)
1/3 compost rich, living potting soil.
1/3 perlite- EXACTLY wrong. I thought it would be my drainage / aeration.

I've never noticed a gardening soil grade pumice in the big box stores.
I've seen gravel pathway sized pumice.

- -

I get hung up on the sustainability.
If the soil needs all those ingredients to start, then it must need them to continue.
If worm castings are good enough to keep the system going, then why aren't they good enough to start out?

My brain keeps looking for the book answer, because I'm a read 200 books a year kind of guy.

Gardening is rewarding, but I get in my own way.

In my mind, this LOS , no-till soil brewing is indistinguishable from casting a magic spell in a cauldron!

If I'm going to cast magic spells, shouldn't I get the help of friendly witches on Facebook? We chat.

But my mind goes the druid way. Understand the science, do whatever magic works. Druids LOVE plants!

_ _

I sometimes imagine that Shakespeare felt similar confusion.
 
And now in contrast to my high flying ideals, the lowly reality. Ba-dum-dum.

I spread white clover seeds in the kitty litter pots.
I have lbs of it for outside. I only had to walk 6 ft to my nutrients cabinet.


After scratching the clover seeds into the soil, I used a spray bottle relieved of ironing board duty to moisten the soil surface.

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You may have noticed I switched out a 216w cfl with two 100 by 3w LED.
My main goal was to add heat to the room, since it was 58 at night. It's now 59 at night. ;) changed lights from 18/6 to 19/5 fir heart.
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Changing three things at once, hardly a scientific approach !
 
Seedlings and grandmother seedlings in the six packs.


On the left, two Hawaiian Skunk planted 10 and 20 days ago.
THE MIX. Mostly aged seedlings from 10/24 and 11/1. 1 day old and 3 day old wearing helmets.

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Hawaiian Skunk. First cotyledon leaves starting to die off like all the rest.

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Yesterday, the seed on the left was sitting on the soil. The seed on the right looked like the one on the left.
BOTH these Amsterdam free seeds are still wearing their helmets. Non,- feminized. Two more sprouting.

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I invited the passion Sue !

I've spent the last year trying to learn how to grow in a forest. What low light means.
Immersing myself in Permaculture, permanent agriculture.
Playing with principles like "the earth knows how to grow better than man."
Balancing with, "But the earth wants to keep growing a maple forest" and I want a bird, butterfly and human food paradise.

And I didn't know to do any of that outdoor stuff, and I ignored the indoor girls and failed them.


AERATION was what I wanted in the last soil
I went 1/3 pro-mix (which is moss)
1/3 compost rich, living potting soil.
1/3 perlite- EXACTLY wrong. I thought it would be my drainage / aeration.

I've never noticed a gardening soil grade pumice in the big box stores.
I've seen gravel pathway sized pumice.

- -

I get hung up on the sustainability.
If the soil needs all those ingredients to start, then it must need them to continue.
If worm castings are good enough to keep the system going, then why aren't they good enough to start out?

My brain keeps looking for the book answer, because I'm a read 200 books a year kind of guy.

Gardening is rewarding, but I get in my own way.

In my mind, this LOS , no-till soil brewing is indistinguishable from casting a magic spell in a cauldron!

If I'm going to cast magic spells, shouldn't I get the help of friendly witches on Facebook? We chat.

But my mind goes the druid way. Understand the science, do whatever magic works. Druids LOVE plants!

_ _

I sometimes imagine that Shakespeare felt similar confusion.


I hear ya Rad. loud and clear.

I can't settle on a style. I don't want to do huge pots. I'd rather have 16 plant in 3gallon containers, than 4 in 10gallons. So I don't know how successful a no-till style would be. I'm trying to get to the point where I'm pulling down 1# from 2 different strains each month. And I need to figure out how to reconcile that with the fact that I REALLY want to re-use my store-bought super soil. I researched how to recycle Super Soil and Subcool is all over the internet trying to talk people out of re-using his soil. Well of course he is, it's $30-35 a bag depending on the store you go to, I'd want those ducats too if thats what was making my life sweet. Still...

I also need probably twice the amount of soil I currently have and I really don't want to go spend $300 on soil. I think I will do what CO did in his how to make soil cheap thread. But try and get two or three runs out of each pot, then the solid goes back to the tarp, add some shit and then by the time I need it again it'll be ready? A Semi-No-Till program...

Worm Farm
Used Soil Amended
Bennie Teas
Should about do it?

Thanks Rado, for letting me figure that out right here. I think I have my basic outline, now to find all those nuts and bolts that were laying around here.

SweetSue, in the CC recipe for soil, do you think I could used old super soil/yard dirt and quality worm castings in place of the moss, aeration, humus. Mix in the other shit, let it cook and presto change-o ready to go? Or should I lean more toward CO's recipe since I am re-using soil?

Nice Babies Rado!
 
The rock dust and mineralization you add in the beginning takes years to break down and you replenish those along the way by slowly feeding small amounts of things to the worms so their droppings can add them back in. The nutrients are also slow release and you replenish along the way by feeding things to the worms and let them process it into something the soil community can easily access.

The basic approach is to begin with the necessities in a balanced ratio and then let the vermicompost do the rest. You can even feed your compost to the worm bin and it becomes something you can introduce to the no-till as a top dressing. Worm droppings can be made of anything you want or need for your particular grow.

I swear, Rad, sometimes running this grow feels like I'm caught up in some kind of weird magic. :laugh:

I've been following a no-till grow on another forum that's been ongoing for years. The grower has no-tills he's been running now for over three years. At this point his entire growing medium is almost entirely composed of lava rocks (landscaping grade, as is) and vermicompost due to the thriving worm community in them. It's absolutely amazing to see. You may be onto something there. Maybe it IS possible to grow in nothing more than vermicompost and aeration. He has a pretty basic watering schedule that he follows using a regular rotation of coconut/aloe vera water, plain water and enzyme teas, with additions of Fulpower and Agsil. He throws in an occasional tea of either alfalfa/kelp meals or neem/kelp meals to keep pests under control. Reading about Bluejay's grow was what sealed it for me. CO lit the fire and Bluejay fanned it. There's no turning back now.

As much fun as I'm having with this grow I know the next one will be even more fun.

It's a shame your indoor garden suffered from neglect, but as a virtual visitor to your property-in-transition I have to say the rest of your life benefitted from your being absorbed with the outdoors. Have you ever thought of doing any hugelkultur on your land? I would think there would be plenty of old trees to make use of. Researching it made me wish we still had property so I could play with it. Maybe I'll join the community garden one of these years and suggest it.
 
SweetSue, in the CC recipe for soil, do you think I could used old super soil/yard dirt and quality worm castings in place of the moss, aeration, humus. Mix in the other shit, let it cook and presto change-o ready to go? Or should I lean more toward CO's recipe since I am re-using soil?

I think adding some peat moss and something for aeration would be well advised. You want heaps of organic matter and that sphagnum peat moss is a pretty important part of the microbial community you want to establish. Google Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) for a more in depth look at recycling. There's a whole community out there doing just what you are hoping to do.

For a no-till they say bigger is better but no smaller than five gallons, although I have come across successful no-tills in three gallons. Those growers are tremendously proud of their achievement, and rightfully so. One claims to have done a three gallon no-till for over two years running now. It's the EWC and teas that keep a smaller ones going. They're more labor intensive, but still doable. The strength and efficiency of the mycorrhizal community is underestimated. It grows stronger the longer it is undisturbed.

Did I help at all SweetLeef?

Bedtime for me. He's fighting the flu and needs the warmth.

:Namaste:
 
SweetSue I found this "Diatomaceous earth sprinkled around you’re your plants base of the stems will help keep out slugs and snails, but it can also stop other beneficial insects." Here in the Growers forum under Problems and Pest Control Pictorial sticky. :)

Yeah the waterholic thing was a good one Radogast

:peace:

I can see how that would apply for an outdoor grow. Indoors we tend to discourage any insects. The big concern here was damage to the worms, since they do such a valuable job of tilling the soil so we don't have to.
 
Thank you Sue!

Yes you helped tremendously. A couple of things clicked. For some reason I forgot about the R in ROLS. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

I can see how it would work in 3 gallons. I've got a bunch of plant flowering right now in a second run of supersoil. 2 of which are no-till. Which two? I couldnt tell you. I meant to pay attention but didn't :lot-o-toke: I've given a Heisy tea to them twice I think. So far so good. I think I'll try a third round even.

Thanks Sue and Rado!
 
the SPM is really important when using backyard/local soils in any mix, it helps break up the clay-like structure you find in them for aeration, while still retaining similar amounts of water. (most backyard dirts get wet and turn to sludge LOL, like mine, which I also used in my re-used soil mixes)

Wow love your posts Sue. When I was reading Rado's Q I was about to get ready to get all long-winded, then wham! Sue covered it, and probably better than I would :laughtwo: - I've also been thinking about the whole wouldn't just vermicompost and aeration work? since - that is after all what LOS eventually turns into... especially if you have worms in your pot! - my only worry is that it would become too sludgelike, and something I've seen other LOS growers do is mix in little bits of degradeable aeration with their castings before dressing. Thats what I hope to eventually do, when I get away from this freaking perlite I'm using lol... god why do I have so much??

Rado it's great to see new life in your grow :) - but a serious word of caution. Those 100x3's seem to really cause some stress, even on my plants which had never had an issue in their lives, when used alone for vegging. I think it's either the intensity or the lack of blue/white spectrum. I would put those ladies right back under a white/blue fluorescent for now... or they may never perk up the way you want them to :S ... the 100x3's really are great during flowering, ESP for side lighting, but for veg.... I really don't see them doing anything good for you, as sad as that news may be.... :wood: they really don't compare to the Mars II model I have. (I also bought 2 100x3's!! I'm very disappointed that they can't be used for my veg with good results! But it is what it is, no more vegging under them, at least they're great side-flowering-light, so not a total waste... don't be too upset...! but seriously, if you do a side by side, like put a couple plants under a 100x3 and a couple under fluorescents for veg.... I'm 100% positive the fluorescents will have significantly better results...)
 
SoilGirl, start using that perlite you have for a couple SWICK set ups and it will be gone before you know it. Your soil mixes are probably rich enough in organic matter. If they're not, make sure your next pots have an additional 25% more organic matter when you set them up and stick them on SWICKS after they get past the seedling stage. As you transplant and recycle soil, work that old perlite out and replace it with pumice or landscaping lava rock. No need to bust them up smaller for the soil mixes. Apparently they work just as they are out of the bag. Make the change incrementally.
 
I just found out about the puffer yesterday. And all this time I've unnecessarily been making a huge mess :)

This has worked well for me to apply diatomaceous earth to the pots. It makes it so easy to reach around and focus the dusting in hard to access places. It also delivers the best distribution of fine dust. I stole it from the husband. He ordered it to fill the water chamber of his steam locomotive and graciously relinquished it to the grow. Sweet man. :Love:

image17756.jpg
 
This has worked well for me to apply diatomaceous earth to the pots. It makes it so easy to reach around and focus the dusting in hard to access places. It also delivers the best distribution of fine dust. I stole it from the husband. He ordered it to fill the water chamber of his steam locomotive and graciously relinquished it to the grow. Sweet man. :Love:

image17756.jpg

They also use these for gold panning. You can find them at gem/rock stores as well. Very clever idea to use one of those sue..

About gnats, I've never had issues since I added sand to the top of my pots. My fiance has a elderberry that she cares for. One day I decided to look at her ladys a d I noticed the entire top soil moving :0 (holymoly) by far the worst I've ever seen a gnat larvae infestation. grabed a bag of sand and dumped the entire bag about 3 inch of sand on top and haven't seen a gnat flying since. The problem was she constantly watered her elderberry while the plant wasn't drinking as much as she would water. So the soil was constantly wet which is a birthing haven for them lil guys. Same w the D-earth it cuts their body up but isn't as expencive, cant recall but pretty sure d-earth is in short supply (was something wrong I read about it a year or so ago) and the sand you just dump it, spread it, and walk away. You will want to learn when your plants need a drink and when they dont as the sand will make it hard to see if ur soil is dry or not.

Normal play sand works great, it's washed and is the cheapest.
if needed, black gold sells bags of washed sand. They aren't as cheap as a bag of play sand however.
if you get sand from a beach (illegal) or you happen to have a Sandy lawn ;) make sure you cook the sand (I've never done this but I have used soil from the yard, just make sure you cook it in a broken metal wheel barrow over a hot coal fire

I&I
 
the SPM is really important when using backyard/local soils in any mix, it helps break up the clay-like structure you find in them for aeration, while still retaining similar amounts of water. (most backyard dirts get wet and turn to sludge LOL, like mine, which I also used in my re-used soil mixes)

Wow love your posts Sue. When I was reading Rado's Q I was about to get ready to get all long-winded, then wham! Sue covered it, and probably better than I would :laughtwo: - I've also been thinking about the whole wouldn't just vermicompost and aeration work? since - that is after all what LOS eventually turns into... especially if you have worms in your pot! - my only worry is that it would become too sludgelike, and something I've seen other LOS growers do is mix in little bits of degradeable aeration with their castings before dressing. Thats what I hope to eventually do, when I get away from this freaking perlite I'm using lol... god why do I have so much??

Rado it's great to see new life in your grow :) - but a serious word of caution. Those 100x3's seem to really cause some stress, even on my plants which had never had an issue in their lives, when used alone for vegging. I think it's either the intensity or the lack of blue/white spectrum. I would put those ladies right back under a white/blue fluorescent for now... or they may never perk up the way you want them to :S ... the 100x3's really are great during flowering, ESP for side lighting, but for veg.... I really don't see them doing anything good for you, as sad as that news may be.... :wood: they really don't compare to the Mars II model I have. (I also bought 2 100x3's!! I'm very disappointed that they can't be used for my veg with good results! But it is what it is, no more vegging under them, at least they're great side-flowering-light, so not a total waste... don't be too upset...! but seriously, if you do a side by side, like put a couple plants under a 100x3 and a couple under fluorescents for veg.... I'm 100% positive the fluorescents will have significantly better results...)

Peat Moss is necessary for structure. - check

My baby LEDs for supplemental in flower - only.
I will get the CFL back up today. LED idea was for heat output, and it hasn't helped.
 
Sending thoughts of warmth and vigor Rad. :green_heart:
 
My thoughts. I've been using Jorge Cervantes guide to Indoor Marijuana Horticulture. I'm a sophomore at this growing thing but I've had great successes and little total loss. My plan when I started was I would give myself a few years of my own experiences before I can say I know what I am talking about when I say I can grow weed, clone from mothers, from seed, keep mothers alive for years etc. But as you go, you learn. The biggest thing I've learned is to keep everything as simple as possible. Make small moves or changes as you go.

I have a strain that is very good, I don't know what it is, I got it from a guy that got it from a guy that works at a MMJ grow house. Cool I thought...I should have been thinking red flag. This strain grows so fast and tall and I have to keep it on 24hr in veg because at 18/6 it starts to flower. The stuff has a high THC content. I know this from my best girl ever shes been smoking since childhood everyday. So she is my barometer on that. She is a pot snob you might say. If she says its good then you know its good.

I don't smoke it makes me paranoid and sometimes I think I'm dying, am I breathing, is my water intake right, do I have a kidney issue, why am I sweating, did you hear that, don't leave me alone, where did my babe go, shit where is the remote for the tv I need to stop thinking, what are these weird plasma colors going across my eyes, is my heart beating...on and on and on. I only eat it in very low doses for pain and relaxation. There is a threshold I can handle beyond that...I'm dying again. :)

Anyway this stuff is good but it comes with problems. The biggest of which seems to be that it likes to hermie which may be the reason they were discarded or that the guy got a hold of it in the first place. This was among the first strains I had ever grown. I had gnat problems and thrip problems but didn't know it until the third harvest. So I thought I had light leaks, nutrient deficiencies, nutrient burn, over watering, under watering, ph issues, but I use Happy frog soil. I've done many different grows now, each time changing just one thing at a time trying to find the natural balance of this strain. My last harvest I decided to do three sets of blooming. Since they grow so fast I thought perhaps leaving them in veg too long might be a reason they want to hermie so much. When I say hermie I mean actual male flowers showing under a female flower. I also have the problem of bananas and I can't seem to get a perfect sensimilla harvest.

Anyway, so last time I had three groups, one directly after transplanting, group II the next three weeks after that and then one more three weeks after that. At the end of harvest the first group had bananas but no seeds, but they were about 6 inches tall with basically one good bud on the top.

The second group had bananas and no seeds and had enough for about a month of use maybe a little over an ounce though we didn't weigh it. They were about 2 feet. Its futile to weigh it here, as soon as its ten days dry its getting smoked. Two small quiche dishes were full.

The third group had bananas and a few under developed seeds but we have enough for four months. They were about 4.5 feet tall, compared to 6 feet tall when we first tried this strain a couple years ago. Just when I thought we had some success the mother dried up and died. :( Ugh was too busy to notice.

So this time were using all the seeds we got from the earlier harvests and hoping for a bunch of females. My girl says that even with the seeds she has to deal with this stuff is better than anything else she has smoked and its worth the hassle. Meanwhile I don't know if I've proved anything so I added a 400w MH to the 1000w in the grow room to expand the spectrum. My reasoning is that with a wider spectrum the plant may not want to burst so fast into bloom, slowing down the hormonal changes, that is causing the hermie and banana thing. It might make it worse but I'll see.

We have a large amount of seeds so no more M mothers for now. We call it "M" since the strain was labeled M by me two years ago as part of the alphabet labeling system I used when we first started. You have to label if you are cloning for sex. "M" was the mother that died...still makes me sick after all the work I put into it. I want to see if these seeds are feminized. If so I won't be cloning M anytime soon

We also have some new seeds from a friend of a strain that my girl likes, we'll be cloning for sex on those, its called Shock-T, not as good as M but will do comfortably. I found a seed in my shoe after helping a friend harvest, don't know the strain so I called it Toe-Cheese, :) it did not pop though. We also had some Stinky Diesel seed :thedoubletake: from 2009 that didn't pop. We have a Mystery seed :hmmmm: that popped but is growing very slowly. M and Shock-T popped right up and is growing fast :yahoo:

I am 100% at cloning using a rapid rooter with a dome. I line the bottom tray with basic pebble rock then add the rooter tray on it, a 23w 6500K CFL and a thirty year old heating pad under the whole dome/tray. I've used cloning gel, rooting powders, willow water, and straight from the tap water all 100%. Then transplant to Happy Frog soil.

I've still gotta get the room ready, painting the floor white, I built an actual door to replace the tent like flap that used magnets to close (sounds good and worked but the tape holding the magnets rips and falls off), gotta check for light leaks, and find a new screen filter for the intake. My room is made out of panda film. Growing sometimes feels like a job when you have failures or something is not to your expectation but then it is also peaceful and grounding. It will be a while before I change soils or start mixing my own soil or try anything that adds too many new variables. I like my successes, I have a pot cellar from some early strains, and I understand and learn from my failures. Basically growing is an instinct and the more I listen to that the better I get. With the help of some 420 Magazine friends when I am scratching my head. :Love:

Sorry to run on I guess I am a chatty Cathy lol
:peace:
 
:laugh: Warmth is good.
 
:laugh: Warmth is good.

Warmth may have helped already.

Two helmet headed seeds that were a few days old finally opened their leaves after the heater was installed.

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"Outdoor" is the flowering room: one of two 600w hps turned on, excess heat exhausted, supplemental humidity.

"Indoor" is the garden room: two 216w CFLs turned on, supplemental oil space heater, no added humidity.

Both rooms contain vegging cannabis. The garden room also nurtures other plants.

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