Quest for mold-resistant strains, Hawaii outdoor greenhouse grow

[cbdhemp808]

I was going to build a couple SIPs this weekend, but we had some off-grid electricity problems to work through, now fixed.

Shooting for Monday now.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I brought this over from another thread, since it's pertinent to my quest for fungus/mold resistant strains...

Sativa grow in tropical climates. They veg in the rainy season (summer) and flower in the early dry season (winter). So they have a natural morphology and genetic resistance to mold. They have more space between leaves for air flow and long thin buds that dry quicker. They generally grow in locations with a constant 10mph+ "tropical breeze".

Choosing a location with a steady breeze and pruning for air through the plant are the most important factors. How many weeks do you have from 13/11 days to the rainy season? 6 weeks, use a fast flowering indica. 8 weeks, use a tolerant sativa. Rain right before harvest isn't enough time for mold to be an issue.

It all depends on what you mean by "sativa". There are the original sativas before humans started breeding cannabis, probably tall plants likely related to modern-day industrial hemp, with very low amounts of cannabinoids. Then there are the landrace sativas that were bred by humans which incorporated indica genetics for potency. And then there are the modern sativa/indica hybrids which are known as sativa-dominant.

[EDITED] Here's Mango Thai, a landrace sativa from Laos with big, long colas. This one is likely resistant to fungus/mold, but I don't think it's because of the morphology or something hidden in the genetics, or local tropical adaptation, etc. I think the natural resistance is directly from two things: 1) high resin production and 2) high amounts of pine terpenes, which give a piney/skunky odor. I believe the original incorporation of these terpenes into sativa genetics comes from Afghan Kush genetics (and probably other landraces from cool, dry climates, such as Nepal).

photo: The Real Seed Company

Here's another landrace sativa, Honduras, showing plenty of pine terpenes...
"...mainly contains the following monoterpenes: very high amounts of terpinolene and high amounts of beta myrcene, with variability in the high alpha pinene content, followed by moderate quantities of trans ocimene and variability in the moderate content of beta pinene, and smaller amounts of cedrol, limonene, linalool, trans phytol, alpha phellandrene, alpha terpineol, alpha terpinene, gamma terpinene..."

photo: Ace Seeds

I think there are plenty of modern sativa/indica hybrids, known as sativa-dominant, which are not naturally resistant to fungus/mold, which may have what most would consider an ideal morphology.

So, one can attempt to work with particular sativa-dominant phenos and make the environment as best as possible to minimize the impact of fungus/mold, or one can determine the terpene profile of the particular pheno to be grown.

I am interested in growing sativa, indica, and 50/50, but in terms of sativa I'm looking for a fast-flowering sativa-dominant pheno with high pine terpenes. There are a bunch of options. And then there's the issue of pheno hunting to find the ones with the high pine terpenes, and so I'm trying to select the best options with minimal hunting involved, so that means a well-bred, stable seed line with one or more sativa phenos, and few or one indica pheno.

By sativa I am referring to genus sativa sativa that can only grow in tropical conditions originating from south east Asia. Not the sub genus sativa indica that only grows in cool arid conditions originating in middle east. Yes, they both share lineage belonging to the family, hemp cannabis from Himalayas. They are genetically different genus of the same family. Sativa was the genus origin of the THC trait, passed down to it's subclass sativa indica. Yes, plants naturally growing in areas between northern temperate and equatorial zones will be a hybrid and still be a distinct land strain. All true equatorial land strain will be sativa and arid temperate land strain will all be indica. True pure genetics are hard to find in a commercial seed bank.

The Real Seed Company describes Mango Thai #2, a traditional Lao sativa landrace, as Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. indica. They describe indicas as Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. afghanica. This is from the "new cannabis taxonomy" of McPartland and Small, 2020.

So, what we call a true sativa domesticate is Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. indica, and what we call a true indica domesticate is Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. afghanica.

C. sativa subsp. sativa var. sativa is from an older taxonomy, Small and Cronquist, 1976.

The wild ancestral relatives are: for "sativa", C. sativa subsp. indica var. himalayensis (in South Asia), and for "indica", C. sativa subsp. indica var. asperrima (in Central Asia).

Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. indica (informally, "sativa" domesticate) was "Originally cultivated in India for gañjā, and spread at an early date to southeast Asia, Africa, and the Americas." This domesticated version was derived from the regional wild type, C. sativa subsp. indica var. himalayensis. Both are typically tall plants, contain THC, and are late maturing. These types tend to be less susceptible to botrytis bud rot, and contain significantly more terpinolene than var. afghanica.

"The morphology of var. himalayensis [wild sativa] shares traits with East Asian hemp, such as tall height, relatively hollow shoots with a high percentage of bast fiber and little wood; leaflets with moderately coarse serrations; [colas] elongated and somewhat loose..."

Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. afghanica (informally, "indica" domesticate) was grown in Central Asian regions: Afghanistan, and others including "Pakistan, Turkestan (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Xīnjiāng Region in China), and Iran." This domesticated version was derived from the regional wild type, C. sativa subsp. indica var. asperrima. Both types are typically small plants, contain more THC than "sativas", and more CBD. They are early maturing. These types tend to be more susceptible to botrytis bud rot.

Genetics only play a small part in mold resistance if you control where and how it grows. Grew outdoors for decades and only ever had one plant get mold.

Genetics impart some percentage of either C. s. var. indica ("sativa") or C. s. var. afghanica ("indica"), to produce what we call "sativa-dominant", "indica-dominant", or 50/50 balanced. A plant that exhibits strong sativa traits will typically have the best chance of natural resistance to botrytis. Some indica-dominant or indica-leaning hybrids will contain enough sativa-associated pine terpenes (incl. terpinolene) to also have natural resistance to botrytis.

[ There is some confusion, however, because McPartland and Small are reporting that C. S. var indica ("sativa") is associated with terpinolene. In my research, I have found that Afghan Kush is high in terpinolene, which can be seen in current lab test results. My understanding is that early sativa domesticates gained both potency and specific pine terpenes including terpinolene by crossing with indica domesticates. Perhaps actually the opposite is true—early Central Asian indica domesticates gained terpinolene and other pine terpenes from India's early sativa domesticates, and this is how modern Afghan Kush landraces wound up with the pine terpenes. It is common to see some modern sativas that are terpinolene-dominant, but it appears rare to impossible to find a terpinolene-dominant modern indica, with a couple exceptions being some phenos of Afghan Kush and Northern Lights #5. ]

Where I'm growing outdoors here in Hawaii is a perfect test-bed for botrytis resistance, because we can grow year round and the conditions for botrytis to develop are ideal year round. I've had sativas get bud rot, and indicas get bud rot, and then a pheno of a specific 50/50 not get any bud rot whatsoever. These are all growing under the same environmental conditions, in the same place in my greenhouses. This means that genetics play a central role, and expression of terpenes is directly an outcome of genetics.

So again, the only way to have some degree of certainty of strong natural resistance to bud rot is to know the terpene profiles of the known phenotypes of a seed line.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Here's another one I brought from another thread, since it's pertinent to my quest for fungus/mold resistant strains...

Ah see that's also what I thought, what Sativa70 is saying, Sativa morphology very different and maybe very airy for a reason.

A lot of people will say that the sativa morphology contributes to bud rot resistance. I haven't experienced that in my grow, and as I'm saying, my conditions are ideal to test this. Landrace tropical sativas are big plants with big, long colas. I think this morphology isn't some kind of a magic bullet against botrytis spores landing on bud surfaces, taking hold, and growing. A bud is a bud, and a cola is a cola—the botrytis organism doesn't care. But if these spores land in a trichome forest that's off-gassing anti-fungal terpenes, this lowers their ability to take hold. That's my understanding. The pine terpenes are anti-fungal.

Today I took at look at this paper written by McPartland and Small in 2020. They are confirming that terpinolene is associated with the original domesticated sativas in India.

From a study done in Egypt in 2018:

"In the case of [Botrytis cinerea], (–)-menthone, eugenol, and α-terpinene were among the most potent mycelial growth inhibitors." (α-pinene was also strong)

Terpinolene is δ-terpinene (delta), but sometimes α-terpinene is also called terpinolene—they are closely related molecules (almost identical).

My post from 2023 explains more and shows the size of a trichome compared to botrytis spores.

Isn't there something else in the genetic make up that defines resistance, can't be that only pine-y weed is?

This is a very good question. I've studied this quite a bit. My understanding is there is a defense signalling system inside the cannabis plant, and this signalling results, at least in part, in the release of cannabinoids and terpenes from the trichomes. (There may be other mechanisms inside the plant that bring chemical defense to the site of infection; however, I am not aware of those—the literature is quite complex.) Some phenotypes may have better signalling than others. So for example, it's possible that the sativas have better signalling for specific pathogens, but nonetheless, the cannabinoids and terpenes must be there and present in order to be activated.

So, it makes total sense to me that the trichomes have a primary role in defense against botrytis bud rot, with their sticky resin and off-gassing anti-fungal terpenes. The terpenes are there for functional reasons, and cannabis produces hundreds of different terpenes.

what do you do if you don't really like that flavour?

Another good question! Well, I for one don't really care. To me it's far more important not to have to deal with bud rot which can destroy a whole harvest. That said, the presence of terpinolene and other pine terpenes may be sufficient to bring strong bud rot resistance, while at the same time myrcene, limonene, and beta-caryophyllene may also be prominent, rounding out the overall flavor. Lots of true sativas will have terpinolene and pine terpenes. Terpinolene flavor is described as sweet, citrus, floral, pine. Weedmaps describes Northern Lights #5 flavor as "sweetly tropical with a subtle herbal musk". NL5 is an indica with substantial terpinolene and pine terpenes.

So do high Terpinoline & Pinene strains come from very humid areas? as per natural selection?

As I mentioned above, yes, they originated in warm, tropical, wet India. At some point in the evolution of cannabis, some phenotypes began producing terpinolene and the other pine terpenes in the trichomes. If these helped the plant's defense against tropical pathogens, then the phenotype would survive and reproduce more than those which did not produce these terpenes.

And I'm just now reading mandala seeds seem to have a nice section on bud rot;

Loading…

www.mandalaseeds.com

They talk about everything BUT terpenes, and didn't explain that phenotypes of strains will have different distinct terpene profiles. They are conveying the traditional approach of recommending the planting of strains that are adapted to a specific climate, etc. What I've been driving at is, what exactly is going on that provides the natural resistance, and how can we predict that? I think the answer clearly lies with phenotypes and terpene profiles, and ultimately with terpinolene and the other pine terpenes. Simply planting strains that are adapted to a specific environment bypasses the fact that for any given stable seed line, there will be at least two phenotypes. One pheno could be sativa dominant, while the other indica dominant. Some strains produce 5 or 7 known phenotypes, each with its own terpene profile.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

It is common to see some modern sativas that are terpinolene-dominant, but it appears rare to impossible to find a terpinolene-dominant modern indica, with a couple exceptions being some phenos of Afghan Kush and Northern Lights #5. ]

Selective breeding is an issue here. I've seen threads about indica landraces where the grower is quite aggravated by how "energetic" his indica turned out to be, and they often end with "I won't be growing that one again".
Modern indicas are bred for sedative traits, and have been for decades. Landraces are what you need to look at, if you're looking for the origins of terpinolene dominant plants.

As I mentioned above, yes, they originated in warm, tropical, wet India.

According to that one quote from McPartland, and your supposition that terpinolene spread from sativa strains into indicas, but you mentioned there that your research indicates the opposite.

A trait doesn't need an evolutionary pressure to arise, just to become dominant. A random mutation that has neither benefits nor drawbacks in the region it originates in may have benefits in other areas, where it then becomes the dominant trait.
Dinosaurs grew feathers before they started to fly.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Once again, I'm responding to the other thread here, because this directly relates to my quest for fungus/mold resistant strains/phenos...

Tall and airy/ short and dense are characteristics associated with sativa/indica but not the defining factors. Leaf stomata are how you determine genus. Stomata are pores on the leaf that open and close. They draw in CO2 while releasing O2 and water vapor. Indica have fewer and smaller stomata to retain water. Sativa have many and larger stomata to expel water. It isn't a better wax coating keeping water out. It is the ability to shed excess water quickly after the rain stops. Towels left in a bucket of water for days will not mold. If you spread one out on a cloths line and wad the other up on the floor which will mold? You need saturation and air over time to grow mold. Remove saturation in a shorter time, mold can't grow.

That's interesting about the stomata, but I think it is generally accepted that leaf morphology is a solid defining factor for indica vs. sativa, in the case of plants known as "pure" indica or sativa, or 80-100% indica or sativa, or otherwise strongly dominant as one or the other. Probably not in the case of balanced 50/50 hybrids.

You may be right about the differences in the size and amount of stomata; however, I found a scientific paper from 2022 that looked at the differences between sativa and indica leaves in terms of photosynthesis, transpiration, stomatal conductance, and water use efficiency. The study determined that the indica leaf had higher photosynthesis and transpiration, due to higher stomatal conductance. "Stomatal conductance is a measure of how open a plant's stomata are, and it indicates the rate of gas exchange and water loss through the leaves..." So, according to this study, the indica leaves are actually better at releasing water. The sativa leaves registered better "water use efficiency", meaning more photosynthesis per rate of transpiration.

I grow equatorial sativas. prune for air flow, and grew on the prevailing windward side of hills. Did that for 20 years without any mold issues. The plant that did mold was one I forgot I planted. The suburbs pushed out to me so I moved indoors almost 20 years ago.

Which sativa strain(s) did you grow? As I mentioned before, there is no guarantee of the presence of specific terpenes in any particular sativa seed line, whether or not its labeled as a landrace or not. It's possible you could have been growing phenos that were not particularly naturally resistance to bud rot (for example), or leaf mold, and hence the need to prune for air flow. Perhaps some of your phenos were more resistant than others.

Terpenes are essential oils that can be effective against mold and spores. Cannabis stores it's terpenes in the trichomes. When the mold eats into the trichomes they spill open killing the active mold and some of the spores. Great for the plant because it protects the seeds. Saving the plant at the expense of the trichomes kind of defeats our purpose of growing them.

I think there are several mechanisms going on. First, the trichomes are off-gassing all the time, and especially in the daytime (due to warmer ambient temperature). This means that buds and sugar leaf surfaces are essentially bathed in a light fog of terpenes. The terpene molecules then come into contact with the fungal spores. Another mechanism is that when the plant tissues are damaged, defense mechanisms are activated in the plant (jasmonic acid signaling pathway), which I believe sets in motion the release of cannabinoids and terpenes from the trichomes. So now, the light fog becomes a heavy, sticky fog. Something like that.

This is my understanding, and if the bud rot is stopped, then it's stopped and you get a good harvest. I actually think there's really no significant diminishing of trichomes in this case. The key is high resin production coupled with high anti-fungal terpenes (the pine terpenes). Whereas terpinolene and the other pine terpenes seem to be the ones specifically targeting botrytis bud rot, other terpenes may target leaf molds.

 

[cbdhemp808]

It is common to see some modern sativas that are terpinolene-dominant, but it appears rare to impossible to find a terpinolene-dominant modern indica, with a couple exceptions being some phenos of Afghan Kush and Northern Lights #5. ]

Selective breeding is an issue here. I've seen threads about indica landraces where the grower is quite aggravated by how "energetic" his indica turned out to be, and they often end with "I won't be growing that one again".
Modern indicas are bred for sedative traits, and have been for decades. Landraces are what you need to look at, if you're looking for the origins of terpinolene dominant plants.

There's two things going on there, one being the origins of terpinolene dominance, and the other being terpinolene dominance in modern "pure" sativas, "pure" indicas, and hybrids. Of course, to understand the origins, one needs to look at original domesticates (landraces), which are based on regional wild types.

Regardless, if you have a particular pheno of a seed line, and that seed line is labeled as X% sativa / Y% indica, you can obtain a terpene profile for that pheno. My position is that the terpene profile determines the effects. If you've got terpinolene and other pine terpenes in sufficient quantities, you'll have sativa effects. If not, you'll have indica effects. If you've got a balance, then you'll have a combination of effects.

As I mentioned above, yes, [sativas] originated in warm, tropical, wet India.

According to that one quote from McPartland, and your supposition that terpinolene spread from sativa strains into indicas, but you mentioned there that your research indicates the opposite.

Sorry for the confusion. I was under the impression that the presence of high amounts of terpinolene originated in Afghan Kush (indica), and then was transferred to sativas when humans bred sativas w/ indica to increase THC potency. (This is from terpene profiles of modern Afghan Kush.) The McPartland paper is saying that original sativa domesticates in India contain terpinolene, so I'm saying now that perhaps the terpinolene found its way into Afghan Kush when Central Asian growers crossed their indica with Indian sativa.

But what does it all mean? Let's say we have a potent Thai sativa landrace with terpinolene dominant. Did the terpinolene come from the genetics of the original sativa domesticates in India, or did the terpinolene come from the genetics of the original indica domesticates in Central Asia (which came from India)? According to the McPartland paper, the sativa genes came from India, and therefore one would expect so did the genes for terpinolene synthesis. But at some point the Thai sativa was bred with indica to increase potency, so then the question is, was it bred with "pre-terpinolene" indica genetics, or not?

A trait doesn't need an evolutionary pressure to arise, just to become dominant. A random mutation that has neither benefits nor drawbacks in the region it originates in may have benefits in other areas, where it then becomes the dominant trait.
Dinosaurs grew feathers before they started to fly.

Just to be clear, when I use the term, terpinolene dominant, I'm referring to it being the dominant terpene in a terpene profile (lab test results). Some sativa phenos clearly have terpinolene dominant. Some indicas have significant terpinolene, but so far I've only seen possible dominance in some phenos of Afghan Kush and Northern Lights #5. Whether or not those phenos would exhibit predominantly indica effects, or not, I have no idea. They may have balanced 50/50 effects, or lean either toward sativa or indica effects.

One can guess that terpinolene synthesis evolved because wild tropical sativas benefited from the fungus/mold resistance. One can also guess that some original indica domesticates, hybridized with Indian sativas, also gained some benefit from terpinolene. After all, as McPartland notes, the indica domesticates were known for being susceptible to botrytis bud rot. So... South Asia got potency from Central Asia, and Central Asia got bud rot resistance from South Asia.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Big news flash tonight!

I found some scientific research correlating terpenes to indica and sativa classification... "suggesting terpenes (and genetic markers associated with terpene biosynthesis) could have a large role in governing the strain classification." This is from a 2022 study out of Penn. State Univ.

So, confirmation of what I've been saying.

That same study also looks at the concentration of various terpenes in cannabis (long list), so you can see which ones are the most prominent. SPOILER... Terpinolene is #2!! (Myrcene is #1, Limonene is #3, and beta-Caryophyllene is #4.) Seven out of the top 11 are pine terpenes.

In addition, I found data from another paper on the grouping of terpenes—i.e. which terpenes often occur together, also confirming what I've been saying about terpinolene occurring along with the other pine terpenes.

I can tell you, after a quick look at the database... these are strains that are popular in dispensaries, and they are going for flavor, not fungus/mold resistance. So you see a lot of strains with myrcene, limonene, and beta-caryophyllene dominant. But there are some in there with terpinolene dominant... very revealing.

Above said database is copyrighted and difficult to access, so I won't be providing any screenshots or links. But I will make some observations and report here. Exciting stuff!

 

[Sativa1970]

The sativa leaves registered better "water use efficiency",

Then how did they come from and still grow in the opposite environments? Indica central Asia desert/grass land and sativa south east Asia rain forest. Something is misconstrued or out of context. Sativa use all the excess water for glucose production where indica can not make quick, efficient use of it may have been what they were referring too,?

Which sativa strain(s) did you grow?

Columbian, Panama, Jamaican, Thai, Muoi, Purple afghan and Christmas tree are strain that come to mind. These were my regular yearly plants. I know I am forgetting a few, others were just one run and done. Most of them do tend to have the citrus terpenes. I didn't grow for flavor so just a coincidence and not all of them. As for air prunning I just removed stacked leaves and center leaves that received no light or air. My concern was photosynthesis not mold.

They were not "labeled" land strain. The seeds predate commercial seed banks mailing to your door. All family souvenirs in the late 70s. Botanical scientist, merchant marine, active military and peace corps.

This means that buds and sugar leaf surfaces are essentially bathed in a light fog of terpenes.

I wasn't disregarding the effectiveness of terpenes and the minor off gassing is obvious by the nose. But terpenes are the last line of defense, not your front line. Terpenes will not kill most mold spores. They can be effective on active mold. If a mold spore propagates on the leaf it absorbs the oil and dies. Another spore propagates in the same spot now that the oil is gone. They multiply and spread with some dyeing as they move across the leaf, sending out more mold and spores. This is far from an ideal way to fight it off and generally just slows the progress. Better to make conditions that spores do not like and terpenes to pick off the stragglers. Less for the mold, is more for me.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Then how did they come from and still grow in the opposite environments? Indica central Asia desert/grass land and sativa south east Asia rain forest. Something is misconstrued or out of context. Sativa use all the excess water for glucose production where indica can not make quick, efficient use of it may have been what they were referring too,?

I don't know, but science is science. Another thing is that McPartland's modern taxonomic classification relies on plant and leaf morphology, terpenes, and perhaps some other factors. He makes no mention of stomata. I mean, if you have a leaf that looks like and indica leaf, and a leaf that looks like a sativa leaf, is there any reason to turn them over and inspect the stomata in order to put them in either classification? McPartland is a heavyweight scientist in the field of cannabis—if he's not mentioning this, that's saying something.

What you are saying about the stomata seems intuitive, but can you point to any science that backs it up?

I have also just last night discovered the work of a PhD cannabis chemist who has correlated terpenes to classification of indica and sativa. He's been working on this for something like 13 years. His work is now being used by at least one major cannabis testing laboratory. What users of cannabis care about are the effects and the flavors, not the morphology of the plant. To me, it's the effects that define indica vs. sativa.

Columbian, Panama, Jamaican, Thai, Muoi, Purple afghan and Christmas tree are strain that come to mind. These were my regular yearly plants. I know I am forgetting a few, others were just one run and done. Most of them do tend to have the citrus terpenes. I didn't grow for flavor so just a coincidence and not all of them. As for air prunning I just removed stacked leaves and center leaves that received no light or air. My concern was photosynthesis not mold.

I also do pruning to remove small inner and low branches, and the little popcorn bud branches, in order to favor the main colas and to open air flow. I still get bud rot on some phenos, regardless of indica or sativa. I have 2 phenos right now, one showing pretty good resistance, and the other with 100% resistance.

I wasn't disregarding the effectiveness of terpenes and the minor off gassing is obvious by the nose. But terpenes are the last line of defense, not your front line. Terpenes will not kill most mold spores. They can be effective on active mold. If a mold spore propagates on the leaf it absorbs the oil and dies. Another spore propagates in the same spot now that the oil is gone. They multiply and spread with some dyeing as they move across the leaf, sending out more mold and spores. This is far from an ideal way to fight it off and generally just slows the progress. Better to make conditions that spores do not like and terpenes to pick off the stragglers. Less for the mold, is more for me.

I must disagree with this, because as I say, my conditions here in wet, warm tropical Hawaii, surrounded by jungle, are such that it makes little difference whether or not you attempt to make conditions better. My HI-BISCUS pheno from Humboldt Seed Company is proof that terpenes are doing the trick. The buds are very sticky and stinky right up to harvest time when it's crucial.

As for the botrytis spores, my understanding is that they land on the plant surface and send in a sort of root growth. This must be what triggers the jasmonic signalling pathway, and then terpenes and cannabinoids are released from the trichomes. These are the big guns. End of story botrytis.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Hey @CBDMed , here's some shots of my clones...

Taken today... This is around 2 weeks and roots are starting to show out the bottom. Dome has been off for a couple days. This batch is likely 100%.

When I took this cutting, I left a couple big leaves but clipped the leaflets. I left the other small and very small leaves intact. The cutting sprouted roots and grew, but you can still see the original clipped leaves.

Sweet Critical CBD. Roots coming out the bottom now (next pic).

Ready to up-pot to 1 gal.

Another one with roots just starting to poke through today.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I was going to build a couple SIPs this weekend, but we had some off-grid electricity problems to work through, now fixed.

Shooting for Monday now.

I have decided to wait to see some results of my 5gal SIP bucket design and grow medium. At DAY 26 of my comparison grow, the nursery pot is still winning. I also want to wait because my usable clone stock for planting is getting kind of old in their 1 gal pots... not looking great. I have a new batch of clones (above) now just going into 1 gal pots, so I'll wait for them to grow some... but not too much. I'm getting the feeling that it's important to start plants small directly in the SIP.

 

[cbdhemp808]

In the flower house today...

I decided to flower the Humboldt Dream clone in 10 gal, even though she was way too long in veg and suffering from leaf curl. So far she's still chugging along... flowers are smelling very sweet!

 

[Sativa1970]

if you have a leaf that looks like and indica leaf, and a leaf that looks like a sativa leaf, is there any reason to turn them over and inspect the stomata in order to put them in either classification?

If you see a large animal that looks like a bear, has bear claws, fur, build, face and fits every physical description of a bear. Why question if it is a bear? Because it is a vegetarian. Panda are not even closely related to bears.

The size and number of stomata reflecting the environment is fundamental horticulture not just cannabis. Increased direct light, O2, water, and stable temps increase the number of stomata in a genetic = Tropical environment. Low angle light, higher CO2, limited water, hot to cold shifts, decrease the number of stomata in a genetic = temperate dessert. Slowly moving a plant from one environment towards another will change the number of stomata and the genetics. Genetic shift eventually causing easily seen leaf and growth changes that fit better with the new environment. Wider leaves to catch the low angle light. Short and bushy with no canopy to compete with. Less stomata to retain water and it's temp but still take in CO2 with higher levels available. These changes that benefit the plant become dominant. This is how the first unique land strains were formed. There were no other strains to cross with. So stomata show a "current" environmental adaption not origin ancestors. Mold needs a plant that retains excess water. Stomata determine retention. Tropical plants have more stomata to shed water. Full sativas are tropical origin. Any sativa that is not fully tropical is an adaptation towards indica.

When spores land on a surface with the right conditions they send out hyphae or roots. This will trigger the defense response from a host. Animals send out antibodies. In cannabis this is terpenes sent out. Animals stay clean and dry. Plants rinse in rain and dry with stomata. Relying on terpenes is like not staying clean and dry then just relying on your immune system. Proactive vs reactive. If the leaves are not saturated with water the spores won't root. Are all of your other native plants always covered in mold? Do they all produce high levels of terpenes? You need to look at environmental horticulture before you focus on just one attribute.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I mean, if you have a leaf that looks like and indica leaf, and a leaf that looks like a sativa leaf, is there any reason to turn them over and inspect the stomata in order to put them in either classification?

If you see a large animal that looks like a bear, has bear claws, fur, build, face and fits every physical description of a bear. Why question if it is a bear? Because it is a vegetarian. Panda are not even closely related to bears.

Yeah, but that line of logic doesn't apply here, because a sativa leaf and an indica leaf are in fact genetically very similar—they are from the same genus and species, but from different subspecies. If you want to talk about bears, then a better analogy would be Grizzly vs. Kodiak. Both are going to rip you to shreds, but the Kodiak is easily identified as such because they are a lot bigger.

Looking at the stomata is comparable to checking the paw prints. I.e. you already know which bear is which.

The size and number of stomata reflecting the environment is fundamental horticulture not just cannabis. Increased direct light, O2, water, and stable temps increase the number of stomata in a genetic = Tropical environment. Low angle light, higher CO2, limited water, hot to cold shifts, decrease the number of stomata in a genetic = temperate dessert. Slowly moving a plant from one environment towards another will change the number of stomata and the genetics. Genetic shift eventually causing easily seen leaf and growth changes that fit better with the new environment. Wider leaves to catch the low angle light. Short and bushy with no canopy to compete with. Less stomata to retain water and it's temp but still take in CO2 with higher levels available. These changes that benefit the plant become dominant. This is how the first unique land strains were formed. There were no other strains to cross with. So stomata show a "current" environmental adaption not origin ancestors. Mold needs a plant that retains excess water. Stomata determine retention. Tropical plants have more stomata to shed water. Full sativas are tropical origin. Any sativa that is not fully tropical is an adaptation towards indica.

I'm not disputing that stomata are involved in environmental adaptation, or that stomatal activity of indica plants differs from that of sativa plants. But we are talking about classification here—the identification of indica and sativa. I'm specifically talking about the role of terpenes in bud rot resistance, and differences in terpene profiles of indica vs. sativa.

I'm saying that specific terpenes have a major role in bud rot resistance, while you are saying that the stomata are central to resistance because the stomata of sativa plants are able to move water away from the leaf surfaces better than indica plants can do it.

When spores land on a surface with the right conditions they send out hyphae or roots. This will trigger the defense response from a host. Animals send out antibodies. In cannabis this is terpenes sent out. Animals stay clean and dry. Plants rinse in rain and dry with stomata.

My plants are protected from the rain because they're in greenhouses. We have high humidity here. Again, I've grown both indicas and sativas. I've had sativas get bud rot. I've grown 50/50 plants that get zero bud rot. And I've grown indicas that get bud rot, and indicas that are fairly resistant to bud rot. The reason for the differences are the terpenes produced and the amount of resin production.

Relying on terpenes is like not staying clean and dry then just relying on your immune system. Proactive vs reactive. If the leaves are not saturated with water the spores won't root. Are all of your other native plants always covered in mold? Do they all produce high levels of terpenes? You need to look at environmental horticulture before you focus on just one attribute.

In my grow the leaves are not saturated with water. Bud rot has no problem getting started, likewise for leaf molds (PM, septoria, and downy mildew). I've had plants next to other plants, and one will have lots of PM while the others don't. The organisms are sensitive to the presence of different types of terpenes.

For one thing, the local plants here don't produce flowers that have a morphology anything like cannabis flowers. These are tropical plants that evolved in the tropics, and some evolved right here in Hawaii after they arrived long ago. That said, there are plants here such as guava that have leaves that are very high in the terpene beta-caryophyllene. I think the same can be said about the leaves of the Soursop, which are known to be anti-cancer.

If cannabis had arrived here eons ago, then there would be wild types that fully adapted to our climate, and those would have terpene profiles similar to the sativa wild types found in tropical India... the ones that McPartland assigns terpinolene to. And when terpinolene is dominant, you'll also see the other pine terpenes in substantial amounts. I've looked at a lot of terpene profiles that consistently show this, and just found another database which shows this as well.

I'm being very objective about how I'm approaching the understanding of what's going on in my local environment here, which is a perfect test-bed for natural resistance to bud rot. I look at the results. I look at the patterns. The conclusions I'm coming to fit the evidence.

 

[Sativa1970]

they are from the same genus and species, but from different subspecies. If you want to talk about bears, then a better analogy would be Grizzly vs. Kodiak. Both are going to rip you to shreds, but the Kodiak is easily identified as such because they are a lot bigger.

The same order; rose
They are in the same family; Hemp
They are in the same genus; Cannabis sativa sativa.
That genus has three species of cannabis; sativa indica, sativa sativa, and sativa ruderalis.
Each of those species has pure sub species; strain
Each of those have mixed species sub strain; hybrid

Kodiak is bigger than grizzly just like sativa is bigger than Indica. Easily identified differences, but yet, they are the same species, brown bear (indica). Just different sub species (strains). Scientific classification makes them brothers not genus cousins(sativa,indica,ruderalis). My point was that science has to look vary close at all of the details when classifying. Scientist believed panda were in the black bear genus(sativa) for years. After looking closer they moved them completely out to the marsupial order. because being a vegetarian is like having the wrong terpenes. Looking even closer at DNA they moved them back to bear family(hemp) but different genus( cannabis). You can not classify anything with just a precursor glance at 3 factors. Then weigh one random factor more heavily as they did with the panda three times.

Terpenes tied to species and it's ability to fight mold is not new information. High times was writing articles on it in the 80s. Terpenes are one of many indicators of species and one of many factors that contribute to mold resistance. Terpenes are not more or less important. Ignoring the other factors and calling it done is how you get moldy plants or a, marsupial,,? panda bear,,,? Analogy make more sense now?

My approach almost never had mold. You constantly fight it. We have a bit of moisture here. It is common here for crawl spaces under houses to have inches of water from condensation dripping off metal air-conditioning ducts. Just pumped another one out, insulated and installed a dehumidifier yesterday. With the weather cooling off I have only done two this month.

 

[cbdhemp808]

The same order; rose
They are in the same family; Hemp
They are in the same genus; Cannabis sativa sativa.
That genus has three species of cannabis; sativa indica, sativa sativa, and sativa ruderalis.
Each of those species has pure sub species; strain
Each of those have mixed species sub strain; hybrid

The latest scientific classification is (McPartland and Small, 2020):

Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. indica (sativa domesticate; South Asia)
Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. himalayensis (sativa wild type; South Asia)
Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. afghanica (indica domesticate; Central Asia)
Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. asperrima (indica wild type; Central Asia)

They are all subspecies of the Cannabis sativa genus.

EDIT: There's a bit more to this...​

​

"The three main subspecies (subsp.) are industrial hemp Cannabis sativa subsp. sativa, marijuana Cannabis sativa subsp. indica, known for her psychoactive effect, and wild hemp Cannabis sativa subsp. ruderalis (Chayasirisobhon, 2019; Lim et al., 2021)."​

​

All modern hybrids are simply Cannabis sativa, and are are mixtures of subsp. indica var. indica, indica var. afghanica, subsp. sativa, and subsp. ruderalis.​

Do you accept this or not? If not, why not?

Terpenes tied to species and it's ability to fight mold is not new information. High times was writing articles on it in the 80s. Terpenes are one of many indicators of species and one of many factors that contribute to mold resistance. Terpenes are not more or less important. Ignoring the other factors and calling it done is how you get moldy plants...

Show me the science...

In cannabis, what is your proof that terpenes are not the primary way that the plant defends itself from botrytis bud rot (and fungal leaf pathogens)?

In cannabis, what is your proof that terpenes are not the primary way to classify a phenotype as indica, sativa, or 50/50?

In cannabis, what is your proof that terpenes are not the primary predictor of perceived effects from consuming the buds?

My position/theory is that all the above are true; however, the science is more-or-less not yet definitive, depending on which of the above three claims are being investigated. I haven't seen any science that proves that any of the above are false.

In my opinion, this terpene-centric view of cannabis is an emerging view, so it makes complete sense that someone such as yourself, with decades of experience growing and consuming, would have a hard time accepting it.

I mean no offense, and I welcome your input.

My approach almost never had mold. You constantly fight it. We have a bit of moisture here. It is common here for crawl spaces under houses to have inches of water from condensation dripping off metal air-conditioning ducts. Just pumped another one out, insulated and installed a dehumidifier yesterday. With the weather cooling off I have only done two this month.

Look, I have respect for the fact that you grew sativas outdoors in your location, successfully, for 20 years. That's awesome. I happen to live in a completely different environment here in Hawaii, with lots of rain, high humidity, and constant warm weather year round. I'm surrounded by jungle plants and trees. There's a high load of fungus and mold spores in the air. My greenhouses are like little spots of sunlight in this landscape. My plants are protected from the rain, because they're in greenhouses. I prune my plants in late veg or early flower, to increase air flow and. During flower, I prune fan leaves above major bud sites, to increase sun exposure and temperature on bud surfaces. My greenhouses have open walls and get good airflow (we usually have some breezes coming through, being 2 miles from the ocean). I have grown indica, sativa, and 50/50. (Mostly indica-dominant right now, and one 50/50.) I grow in the same greenhouses only, using the same pots and medium. Plants get the same amount of water and nutrients.

I am focusing primarily on natural bud rot resistance, because bud rot can easily wipe out the whole harvest, and being forced to harvest early is a bummer. My secondary concern is leaf pathogens (PM, septoria, and downy mildew).

Some phenos are susceptible to bud rot, while others are not. It's that simple.

Instead of continuing to rely on tweaking the environment and trying to feed various things, and spray various things, I decided to look for strains/phenos with strong bud rot resistance. This took a little time, and then I found Humboldt Seed Company's HI-BISCUS strain, and grew some phenos, and settled on one pheno which I have been cloning for a few generations. I had one harvest in 2023, and there was zero bud rot, which was amazing and shocking to behold. The buds produced lots of sticky and stinky resin, right up to harvest day. It turns out, HSC developed this strain for "vigor, mold resistance, and optimal terpenes."

At harvest, I noted the odor as: skunk, pine, mango.

Later in 2023 I found a terpene profile for HI-BISCUS...

The top 3 terpenes are terpinolene, myrcene, and pinene. Combined with the odor I experienced at harvest time, of skunk, pine, mango, this is a good fit for the presence of all 3 primary terpenes in the profile.

I researched a bit more, and concluded there are multiple phenotypes for HI-BISCUS, with one having terpinolene dominant, one with terpinolene prominent but not dominant, and perhaps others with terpinolene not prominent.

It was this journey that guided me to use HI-BISCUS as a baseline for high bud rot resistance, due to the presence of terpinolene and other pine terpenes. Then I took a deep dive into looking at many terpene profiles. I found it obvious that the common knowledge of sativas being bud rot resistant was due to the presence of terpinolene and its accompanying pine terpenes. Growing any sativa strain, and pheno of that strain, is not a guarantee of the presence of terpinolene and the pine terpenes, but many well-known sativa strains have one or more phenos that are high in terpinolene (if not dominant), with significant amounts of the other pine terpenes as well (alpha-pinene, ocimene, etc.)

 

[Sativa1970]

Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. indica (sativa domesticate; South Asia)
Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. himalayensis (sativa wild type; South Asia)
Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. afghanica (indica domesticate; Central Asia)
Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. asperrima (indica wild type; Central Asia)

They are all subspecies of the Cannabis sativa genus.

Everything discussed on this sight is that genus.
Scientific order of classification with only common names to simplify:
Order; rose
Family; Hemp
Genus; Cannabis sativa ( not to be confused with species sativa sativa or sativa indica)
Species; indica, sativa, and ruderalis.
Sub species; strain.

Species cross bread and mutate to define the sub species AKA strain. The genus emerged in the fosil records almost 30 mil years ago and the species diverged 25 mil years ago. This chart is showing how the first wild and then domestic plants were crossed to form the first cross species hybrids.

Mc Partland and Guy conducted a DNA sequencing listing the genetic shift within genus cannabis sativa. Small and Conquest determined there was no longer enough genetic drift to discern a clear separation of distinct species and created this chart. It simply adds a distinction under species of dominant sub species. The major focus of this paper was how the plants are most often misclassified by only using stem, terpene and leaf morphology. They pose that most known sativa be reclassed indica, indica reclassed afghanica, and rudderalis reclassified as sativa. The determining factors are cell structure, mitochondria, and porousness of the plant and seed walls. All factors determining mold resistance. National library of medicine systematic OFGSS; Cannabis Systematics at the Levels of Family, Genus, and Species - PMC

Just like the study you sighted, you are using precursor analysis like most botanists have through history. Using the brief generic definitions of strain is how the same sub strain AK47 won the sativa cup then 4 years later won the indica cup. A plant may display generic traits of indica or sativa leaves, terpene and stem structure without the cellular makeup to match. The cellular makeup determines porousness for water retention and volume of mitochondria. The research is stating these are the only remaining true indicators of a muddy lineage. If you are looking for a plant that can thrive in tropical conditions, ideally you want both. Generic physiological adaptation of leaves, stems, terpenes and the cellular adaptation to that environment. The closer you are to the original tropical strain or a seed bank variety will effect resistance. My seeds were hand delivered from the tropical forests then grown for generations in my environment. They are less sativa now through generational mutation than they were 40 years ago by the cellular definition. It's a mixture of traits that are no longer black and white but shades of grey.

In cannabis, what is your proof that terpenes are not the primary predictor of perceived effects from consuming the buds?

It is an entourage effect. Both essential oils and cannabinoids effect your mental state. Smell has the strongest link to memories. Terpenes do have a variety of biological effects. Cannabinoids bind to receptors in the brain. What strain has less effect on your mental state than a trip to bed bath and beyond candle section? As for the science. Considering terpenes are destroyed at over 100deg F, a vape setting is easy enough to determine the full entourage effects. Compare the effects by Mg of 99deg( terps ) to highest temp( cannabinoids ). You could smoke 2 different strains with the same THC/CBD ratio through a pipe. They should be the same effect since no viable terpenes can surviving the heat.

Growing any sativa strain, and pheno of that strain, is not a guarantee of the presence of terpinolene and the pine terpenes,

My point was that those factors may be beneficial but they are no guaranty that the other beneficial factors are there. Having one mold resistant factor is good but having 6 mold resistant factors is great. Not discounting the one but reminding you that there are another 5.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. indica (sativa domesticate; South Asia)
Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. himalayensis (sativa wild type; South Asia)
Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. afghanica (indica domesticate; Central Asia)
Cannabis sativa subsp. indica var. asperrima (indica wild type; Central Asia)


They are all subspecies of the Cannabis sativa genus.

I meant genus Cannabis, species Cannabis sativa.




Everything discussed on this sight is that genus.
Scientific order of classification with only common names to simplify:
Order; rose
Family; Hemp
Genus; Cannabis sativa ( not to be confused with species sativa sativa or sativa indica)
Species; indica, sativa, and ruderalis.
Sub species; strain.

Not quite. What you are calling species are subspecies. Modern strains are mixtures of those subspecies.


Indica is Latin for "of India".


subsp. indica var. indica (landrace sativa)

subsp. indica var. himalayensis (wild sativa)

subsp. indica var. afghanica (landrace indica)

subsp. indica var. asperrima (wild indica)

subsp. sativa (industrial hemp)

subsp. ruderalis (wild hemp)



I'm not making a typo here. McPartland and Small are calling the original Indian sativa landraces subsp. indica var indica.


So, it sounds like you disagree with this taxonomic classification, which is a more recent than the one you are citing. That's fine. Let's leave it there.

Species cross bread and mutate to define the sub species AKA strain. The genus emerged in the fosil records almost 30 mil years ago and the species diverged 25 mil years ago. This chart is showing how the first wild and then domestic plants were crossed to form the first cross species hybrids.

Mc Partland and Guy conducted a DNA sequencing listing the genetic shift within genus cannabis sativa. Small and Conquest determined there was no longer enough genetic drift to discern a clear separation of distinct species and created this chart. It simply adds a distinction under species of dominant sub species. The major focus of this paper was how the plants are most often misclassified by only using stem, terpene and leaf morphology. They pose that most known sativa be reclassed indica, indica reclassed afghanica, and rudderalis reclassified as sativa. The determining factors are cell structure, mitochondria, and porousness of the plant and seed walls. All factors determining mold resistance. National library of medicine systematic OFGSS; Cannabis Systematics at the Levels of Family, Genus, and Species - PMC

I think the paper I cited, McPartland and Small, 2020, supersedes the one you are citing, in terms of sativa and indica classification. They make no mention of cells, mitochondria, stomata, etc.

Just like the study you sighted, you are using precursor analysis like most botanists have through history. Using the brief generic definitions of strain is how the same sub strain AK47 won the sativa cup then 4 years later won the indica cup. A plant may display generic traits of indica or sativa leaves, terpene and stem structure without the cellular makeup to match. The cellular makeup determines porousness for water retention and volume of mitochondria. The research is stating these are the only remaining true indicators of a muddy lineage. If you are looking for a plant that can thrive in tropical conditions, ideally you want both. Generic physiological adaptation of leaves, stems, terpenes and the cellular adaptation to that environment. The closer you are to the original tropical strain or a seed bank variety will effect resistance. My seeds were hand delivered from the tropical forests then grown for generations in my environment. They are less sativa now through generational mutation than they were 40 years ago by the cellular definition. It's a mixture of traits that are no longer black and white but shades of grey.

I am open to the possibility that there are other genetic factors besides terpenes involved in fungus resistance. In some situations, with some particular available seed lines, terpenes may be the best bet.

What I am relying on are the results of my own testing, in my climate and grow conditions, and with the strains/phenos that I'm able to acquire seed for, from reliable sources. I am not interested in growing long-period landrace sativas. I'm interested in growing relatively fast flowering indica, sativa, and 50/50. I would like them all to be very strongly bud rot resistant. So far I have a 50/50 that fits that requirement. There are many possible sativas, as I said before. Northern Lights #5, the BC Seed and Bodhi line, I think is a good bet for a near-landrace indica.

I'm personally not interested in the classification of indica vs. sativa, in terms of the plant morphology and genetics. What I'm interested in is bud rot resistance and effects. If I grow a pheno (indica or sativa) that is strongly bud rot resistant, and has the expected effects (indica or sativa), then I'm happy. If I'm growing an indica, and I vape it and get indica effects, I'm happy.

I can look for seed sources, by strain, and then determine phenos. And then I can look at terpene profiles for known phenos. This is the best I can do to make any sort of prediction about bud rot resistance (or leaf mold resistance). The proof is in actually growing out the seed and finding the right phenos. I can also have terpene lab tests done on the stuff that I'm growing.

In cannabis, what is your proof that terpenes are not the primary predictor of perceived effects from consuming the buds?

It is an entourage effect. Both essential oils and cannabinoids effect your mental state. Smell has the strongest link to memories. Terpenes do have a variety of biological effects. Cannabinoids bind to receptors in the brain. What strain has less effect on your mental state than a trip to bed bath and beyond candle section? As for the science. Considering terpenes are destroyed at over 100deg F, a vape setting is easy enough to determine the full entourage effects. Compare the effects by Mg of 99deg( terps ) to highest temp( cannabinoids ). You could smoke 2 different strains with the same THC/CBD ratio through a pipe. They should be the same effect since no viable terpenes can surviving the heat.

I'm vaping, so I'm not concerned about combustion. Let's say we have THC flower (not CBD) from two different phenos, one with indica effects (dominant) and one with sativa effects (dominant). Let's say the percent THC is the same. If we remove the terpenes from those two samples, and then vape the samples, I think we would experience the same effects.

So, the terpene profile is the primary predictor of perceived effects.

Growing any sativa strain, and pheno of that strain, is not a guarantee of the presence of terpinolene and the pine terpenes...

My point was that those factors may be beneficial but they are no guaranty that the other beneficial factors are there. Having one mold resistant factor is good but having 6 mold resistant factors is great. Not discounting the one but reminding you that there are another 5.

This can only be proven by testing, which is what I'm in the process of doing. If I find a pheno that is strongly bud rot resistant, and then have the flower tested and find that terpinolene and pine terpenes are not found in significant amounts, then... something else is going on. We'll see!


I appreciate your input. Perhaps we should leave it here for now. Thanks.

 

[Fenderbender]

Did you encounter this already? although maybe not that much importance for you.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1087184517300956

 

[cbdhemp808]

Did you encounter this already? although maybe not that much importance for you.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1087184517300956

Thanks for sharing. No, I hadn't seen that one yet.