Plant Alchemy With KNF: Korean Natural Farming And Jadam

[freed]

I’ll be interested in what you find.
Thanks

 

[scottreid1966]

Your work awes me, Azi!
I know, no pics.....

Just out of curiousity, how many hours a week do you spend on doing all this?

Cheers!

 

[Azimuth]

Your work awes me, Azi!
I know, no pics.....

Just out of curiousity, how many hours a week do you spend on doing all this?

Cheers!

Ha! Nice of you to say. I like growing plants and doing experiments and try to pass along anything I learn that I think others might be interested in.

I have a routine I follow. Probably 20 mins in the morning and maybe a half hour after dinner. But a lot of that time is spent futzing needlessly with the plants and staring in satisfaction at them. Lol. They're all in SIPs so not much to do. They're all pretty small and there aren't that many so it can go quick.

The morning session isn't really needed at all and if I wanted to blast through it I could probably do it all in 20 mins every other day. But for me, the morning session is a good way to start my day.

 

[Azimuth]

My K issue at about week 2-3 of flower continues even with the added banana JLF I've been using. Doesn't seem as aggressive a deficiency as last couple of rounds but it's still early.

So I'm going to try a bit of a different approach going forward. I'm going to start adding alfalfa as a top dressing as well as adding it as an amendment in my compost and worm castings. I can get a 40lb bag of pellets at a farm supply store for about the same cost as a 10lb bag sold as a garden amendment so that should give me a healthy supply to experiment with in various ways.

I'll probably also add it as an amendment in my soil mix as this seems to be a consistent issue I'm having since I began making my own soil mix.

Other than that the plants seem pretty good so if I can resolve this issue I may have that repeatable mix and process I've been working toward.

I also started a 5 gallon bucket of seaweed JLF that I use as a component in my veg nutes. It's a pretty small component so 5 Gallons is a multi-year supply. My comfrey and stinging nettle have popped up so I'll get buckets of each of them going in the next month or two once I have enough plant mass to harvest.

 

[Gee64]

My K issue at about week 2-3 of flower continues even with the added banana JLF I've been using. Doesn't seem as aggressive a deficiency as last couple of rounds but it's still early.

So I'm going to try a bit of a different approach going forward. I'm going to start adding alfalfa as a top dressing as well as adding it as an amendment in my compost and worm castings. I can get a 40lb bag of pellets at a farm supply store for about the same cost as a 10lb bag sold as a garden amendment so that should give me a healthy supply to experiment with in various ways.

I'll probably also add it as an amendment in my soil mix as this seems to be a consistent issue I'm having since I began making my own soil mix.

Other than that the plants seem pretty good so if I can resolve this issue I may have that repeatable mix and process I've been working toward.

I also started a 5 gallon bucket of seaweed JLF that I use as a component in my veg nutes. It's a pretty small component so 5 Gallons is a multi-year supply. My comfrey and stinging nettle have popped up so I'll get buckets of each of them going in the next month or two once I have enough plant mass to harvest.

are you putting greensand in your soil mix?

 

[Gee64]

The problem with using alfalfa as a K input is that young alfalfa contains lots, mature alfalfa far less, and if the windrows in the field get rained on a lot gets leached out.

K is best from the ocean in both greensand, which is an ancient seabed product, or kelp.

Greensand for long term rebuildable horsepower and kelp because it's kelp and also contains K.

You can get high grade kelp at the Feed Store as it's a prime diet staple in race horses, and it's way cheaper than the garden store.

Then make potions from that if you like, but I cook both into my global soil mix and I have never experienced a K issue.

I know you want something local but adding these 2 will tell you for sure if it's a K thing. If you are in LOS and your PH is out, it's a myco thing not a water thing. My water goes in at PH 8.? every day. Myco keeps the soil at 6.2.

If your soil is actually that high in PH, then you need more calcium in it.

2 PH zones here, the soil and the rhizosphere.

Make sure it's a K thing and not nute burn from a potion.

A K deficiency looks like nute burn and a Mg def combined. Burnt serrations and yellowing between the veins. No yellowing means nute burn.

 

[Azimuth]

are you putting greensand in your soil mix?

No. I do have seaweed JLF as a key component in my veg feed so it should be somewhat represented. I'll check on the kelp meal and Greenland.

A K deficiency looks like nute burn and a Mg def combined. Burnt serrations and yellowing between the veins. No yellowing means nute burn.

I think it's definitely a K deficiency. Bright yellow serrations. But could that be caused by a Ca deficit or something else?

I find it kind of surprising that I'd have that deficiency since the comfrey I give them is high in that element which makes me wonder if it's a reaction to something else.

 

[Gee64]

No. I do have seaweed JLF as a key component in my veg feed so it should be somewhat represented. I'll check on the kelp meal and Greenland.

You say veg feed, do you use it in flower too? If you stopped your K input and a K def arises... jus sayin... try adding it back in?

I think it's definitely a K deficiency. Bright yellow serrations. But could that be caused by a Ca deficit or something else?

A Ca def is pretty standard looking. If you google it they all look the same. The Ca def would show up way before the K def if they were related.

I find it kind of surprising that I'd have that deficiency since the comfrey I give them is high in that element which makes me wonder if it's a reaction to something else.

Any chance you have a link to an online pic that is pretty much exactly like what you are dealing with? K defs, nute burn, and some stages of light poisoning look almost identical.

Also, I know what your end goal is, but in LOS, your NPK needs to be in your global mix. Adding P and/or K to fix something means your soil is unbalanced. N can be constantly harvested from the air, providing your global soil N inputs have enough proteins in them to sustain the grow. The rest of needed N comes from atmosphere, which is natures holding tank at the top of the nitrogen cycle. Like humans, plants deal with aminos (protein building block) just like humans do. Essential aminos must be supplied, non-essential aminos can be manufactured by the body/plant, So some N has to be in the mix, and some can come from the air.

P is always best in the soil as you need a little bit every day from birth, and a little bit more every day than you needed the day before, it's a math thing. More plant means more photosynthesis so more P is needed today than was needed yesterday.

K is intimitely connected to nitrogen as it's required to process all those aminos, both essential and non essential.

So what does that all mean?

If N and P need to be in the soil from day 1, then so is K. Adding it later on means you are rescuing, not feeding. If you are rescuing then you likely see a def. But 1st make sure thats your issue, and it's not nute burn from a potion. If there is some interveinal chlorosis with the brown tips it's likely a K thing, no interveinal chlorosis and its likely nute or light burn.

K defs get misdiagnosed alot. Greensand in the mix prior to cooking will pretty much eliminate K issues.

So analyze that and make a global change for next grow, or decide if it's nute burn or light poisoning, and then see if it still arises.

By global, I mean in the soil mix prior to cooking.

 

[Gee64]

Here is a guide that has a great pic of a K def in the K section. Hopefully I did the link right.

Def guide

 

[Azimuth]

You say veg feed, do you use it in flower too? If you stopped your K input and a K def arises... jus sayin... try adding it back in?

I had been using my JLF, a concoction of 40% FAA, 20% comfrey JLF, 20% Nettle JLF, 10% seaweed JLF, and 10% WCA from first up-pot, but I've taken to starting it about a week or two from flip since the plants seem very healthy on plain water all through veg.

I also changed from tap water to pure rain water before having the issue. The rain water is lower in pH and lacks the other things typically found in tap water so that had me wondering if my issues might be lockout from a pH issue.

I've recently gone back to tap water but the leaf damage is done so hard to tell if the issue is resolved.

A Ca def is pretty standard looking. If you google it they all look the same. The Ca def would show up way before the K def if they were related.

No, I know what a Ca deficiency looks like with all the little brown spots on the leaves. This is definitely not that.

Any chance you have a link to an online pic that is pretty much exactly like what you are dealing with? K defs, nute burn, and some stages of light poisoning look almost identical.

Picture 1 and 2 shows a Potassium deficiency

Mine look pretty much like the above but with much brighter yellow. Quite striking actually but that's not what I'm going for.

So analyze that and make a global change for next grow, or decide if it's nute burn or light poisoning, and then see if it still arises.

By global, I mean in the soil mix prior to cooking.

Yeah, I'm upgrading both my compost pile and worm bin to include more inputs that should have what I need since I'd rather it come from the mix as you say, and then top it off through flower since my 2 Gal pots are too small to carry enough for the entire run.

But, compost piles and worm bin inputs are a multi month process so hopefully they'll be online later this year. In the meantime I'm just trying to put out fires as they arise.

I get the plants to harvest and each round seems to improve on those prior but I'm still working on it. Getting closer I think, though still not there.

 

[Gee64]

I had been using my JLF, a concoction of 40% FAA, 20% comfrey JLF, 20% Nettle JLF, 10% seaweed JLF, and 10% WCA from first up-pot, but I've taken to starting it about a week or two from flip since the plants seem very healthy on plain water all through veg.

I also changed from tap water to pure rain water before having the issue. The rain water is lower in pH and lacks the other things typically found in tap water so that had me wondering if my issues might be lockout from a pH issue.

I've recently gone back to tap water but the leaf damage is done so hard to tell if the issue is resolved.


No, I know what a Ca deficiency looks like with all the little brown spots on the leaves. This is definitely not that.




Mine look pretty much like the above but with much brighter yellow. Quite striking actually but that's not what I'm going for.


Yeah, I'm upgrading both my compost pile and worm bin to include more inputs that should have what I need since I'd rather it come from the mix as you say, and then top it off through flower since my 2 Gal pots are too small to carry enough for the entire run.

But, compost piles and worm bin inputs are a multi month process so hopefully they'll be online later this year. In the meantime I'm just trying to put out fires as they arise.

I get the plants to harvest and each round seems to improve on those prior but I'm still working on it. Getting closer I think, though still not there.

yup thats K

 

[RedskinnedRhino]

If you have plenty of known K thru your JLF additions, then possibly you're having an issue with a complimentary/antagonistic nutrient? I've found that with a hard yellowing - although it presents as a K issue, I've repaired with an Epsom salt foliar. Magnesium and potassium do weird stuff to each other, and a lil sulfur is always good. Just a thought. YMMV.

 

[Azimuth]

If you have plenty of known K thru your JLF additions, then possibly you're having an issue with a complimentary/antagonistic nutrient? I've found that with a hard yellowing - although it presents as a K issue, I've repaired with an Epsom salt foliar. Magnesium and potassium do weird stuff to each other, and a lil sulfur is always good. Just a thought. YMMV.

Thanks, Red! Now that you mention it I have seen subtle signs of a Mag issue but mostly ignore it and it seems to resolve itself on its own, so maybe it is a K issue but caused by something completely different.

My comfrey/nettle mix is about 4.5:1 cal:Mag so I figure I've got it covered but who knows. Probably have to have the JLF and soil mixes tested to be sure.

 

[Gee64]

Azi I can't remember, do you have a refractometer? if so, is your calcium line fuzzy or crisp?

 

[Azimuth]

Azi I can't remember, do you have a refractometer? if so, is your calcium line fuzzy or crisp?

I do. Haven't checked I a while but last I did it was pretty sharp. I'm starting to add a weekly top dress of worm castings along with a bit of other things like neem/karanja, comfrey, malted barley, etc so hopefully that will improve things.

 

[Gee64]

I do. Haven't checked I a while but last I did it was pretty sharp. I'm starting to add a weekly top dress of worm castings along with a bit of other things like neem/karanja, comfrey, malted barley, etc so hopefully that will improve things.

Ok, Rhino is onto something there, and Muldars chart should show you that K, Mg, and Ca can all antagonize each other, so if you fix calcium 1st, the other 2 will be much easier to figure out. They may even correct themselves.

 

[Gee64]

Not that Ca is broken, but check it 1st.

 

[Azimuth]

Yeah, I've been hesitant to topdress my castings like I used to because of the mites and thrips. I've started a soap spray routine every three days which seems to contain them, but they're harder to control in flower.

So, I'm going back to adding neem and karanja to both my soil mix and my weekly top dressing with hopes that will tackle the job in a different way. Not as sustainable as I'd like since I can't grow that stuff, but compromises have to be made.

If that proves successful I'll try swapping those out for Sunchoke which is a staple bug treatment in Jadam and that I do grow in my garden. But, tried and true first to see if I can get any traction.

If I can, then the calcium in the castings could help get my brix up and kick off a virtuous cycle

 

[Azimuth]

I've recently gone back to adding a small topdressing of castings each week. Mine are just too good not to use. I had gotten away from them because I seem to get mites and thrips about 2 weeks after adding them and got tired of dealing with them. But, I still have to spray every three days to keep them in check, so I figured I might as well get the benefits from the castings I'm missing out on since I still have the bug issues anyway.

So, I've gone back to adding them on top at a rate of 2 tsp per gallon of soil weekly but am also adding 1 tsp/g of my top dressing mix as well to hopefully counteract the bug problem. By adding small amounts weekly I figure that 4-5 weeks out I'll have some of the ingredients at all the various stages of breakdown with fresh inputs constantly on the way.

My top dressing mix is equal parts of neem, karanja, Comfrey, Nettle, Alfalfa, malted barley, and dried flowers. I'm hoping the neem and karanja address the bug issue allowing the castings to perform their calcium magic.

I also cover my soil in a combination of my leaf mold and compost to a depth of an inch or two. I haven't gone the spikes route yet but I guess that's something else I could consider.

 

[Gee64]

I've recently gone back to adding a small topdressing of castings each week. Mine are just too good not to use. I had gotten away from them because I seem to get mites and thrips about 2 weeks after adding them and got tired of dealing with them. But, I still have to spray every three days to keep them in check, so I figured I might as well get the benefits from the castings I'm missing out on since I still have the bug issues anyway.

So, I've gone back to adding them on top at a rate of 2 tsp per gallon of soil weekly but am also adding 1 tsp/g of my top dressing mix as well to hopefully counteract the bug problem. By adding small amounts weekly I figure that 4-5 weeks out I'll have some of the ingredients at all the various stages of breakdown with fresh inputs constantly on the way.

My top dressing mix is equal parts of neem, karanja, Comfrey, Nettle, Alfalfa, malted barley, and dried flowers. I'm hoping the neem and karanja address the bug issue allowing the castings to perform their calcium magic.

I also cover my soil in a combination of my leaf mold and compost to a depth of an inch or two. I haven't gone the spikes route yet but I guess that's something else I could consider.

Have you ever considered high brix growing?