Plant Alchemy With KNF: Korean Natural Farming And Jadam

[Keffka]

Finely minced inputs processing faster makes total sense. Maybe I could look into a second hand processor at a yard sale or something. I do like the idea of not having to screen the castings when they're ready for use

I’m catching up on this thread but saw this and wanted to say, check the Salvation Army, or thrift stores, places like that. I needed something to process root bark for DMT and didn’t want to use our food ready stuff. You can get insanely good deals on high quality stuff.. I found a Ninja blender and processor for 15$.. I’m not gonna use it for anything other than non food stuff so a quick sanitize and it was perfect

 

[Keffka]

Here it is. Remember this part of the convo? This could be whats happening. Did you use any coco in this mix?

Starvation can mimic a nitro def. No available carbon (as in too dense so its not released quick enough) can mimic a nitro def.

Carbon is carbs and nitro is proteins. Carbs are the fuel source to power protein synthesis. A young plant requires this from the soil until it can set up its system (get established) to pull the carbon from the air.

Not telling you what/how to do but.... Your system your building is very cool, you know I'm a huge fan of it so again but..... You need to put more detail in the process and less in the ingredients.

My recomendation is to remove carbon from the equation for now, and get all your proteins working and here is why. Carbs are carbs. They are fuel. So use coco as your carb source. Take all things leaf out...for now. Grow a year with coco and perfect your meals, potions, voodoo, etc. Once you are consistently getting good results then change your carbon source. By then your leaves, hot compost, etc will all be fully finished and READY for use so you will be introducing carbon and not issues.

You are trying too many things at once and in a hurry and its biting you in the A$$ from many directions. You need to slow the science down, use a proven system, and convert to your end game methodically.

Like I said, not telling you what to do.... just telling you where I have tripped and stumbled on many paths.

Agreed with this. Without seeing pictures and getting an Oz by Oz breakdown of the mix I hear starvation as well. N doesn’t make sense, not this quickly anyway. If it’s soil, 9 out of 10 times I’m gonna say carbon starving before deficiency. Soils have so many nutrients bound up in them even if you’ve just harvested a fully flowered plant. It’s the carbon that is almost always lacking. Almost every C source other than coco takes a while to ramp up and should be viewed as a long term investment versus immediate fuel. Coco is like chelated carbon, it’s extremely available out of the gate.

The only deficiency I’d see that would make me think deficiency before C or Myco problems is Calcium and Magnesium, and that’s only if I was indoors.

I too like your system and ideologically believe all of us should have similar systems if we have any hope as a species. However, to achieve what you’re aiming for, requires a significant investment of time and energy into the processes as well as the materials. I’m just glad it’s you figuring out the kinks and not me lol.

LOLOL @Keffka you f!@#er! You nailed it

it took me a while to accept it. It doesn’t help that the Information on it is so limited (on purpose).. At first you think there’s no way, deficiencies are deficiencies, but once you understand the C process, you realize it’s even simpler than Deficiency = NPK fertilizer.

It was one of those things I had to see for myself before I accepted it, and Gees the type of person who’ll let you argue with him and fail without rubbing it in. He just gets excited lol

 

[Gee64]

perhaps this is true....( giggle, snicker,snicker...)

 

[Azimuth]

I would try a myco drench just to make sure. Sometimes myco doesnt link up on the 1st go and the plant gets really light and yellow-looking. The 1st true leaves may start to self consume

Are we talking microbes in general like my worm castings or literally dissolving some Great White in some water and watering in?

What temp is your soil, is it in the high 60's or better? Also if the soil is too wet that can cut off oxygen, which can look like a nitro deficiency.

Soil is 64*F. Container is a 1L SIP so constantly moist from wicking. I could let it dry a bit if it were helpful.

Here it is. Remember this part of the convo? This could be whats happening. Did you use any coco in this mix?

I do remember it and that's why I did put coco in the mix, splitting the carbon portion 50/50 coco/dried leaves.

My recomendation is to remove carbon from the equation for now, and get all your proteins working and here is why. Carbs are carbs. They are fuel. So use coco as your carb source. Take all things leaf out...for now. Grow a year with coco and perfect your meals, potions, voodoo, etc. Once you are consistently getting good results then change your carbon source. By then your leaves, hot compost, etc will all be fully finished and READY for use so you will be introducing carbon and not issues.

I have enough coco for a few runs so I could use that instead, though it might be beneficial for future grows if I still include a little bit to have it start breaking down for subsequent runs?

You are trying too many things at once and in a hurry and its biting you in the A$$ from many directions. You need to slow the science down, use a proven system, and convert to your end game methodically.

What??!!! Dude, I made one change which was to include your stupid carbon and that's when the wheels fell off.

But I hear you. And my small containers add yet another twist to solving the riddle, but I'll get there.

Like I said, not telling you what to do.... just telling you where I have tripped and stumbled on many paths.

I appreciate the hand holding. This is new ground for me so I'm thrilled I have you as my guide and am excited about how this will work once the pieces all come together.

Almost every C source other than coco takes a while to ramp up and should be viewed as a long term investment versus immediate fuel. Coco is like chelated carbon, it’s extremely available out of the gate.

Half of my carbon part  is coco, that's why I'm surprised to have the issues this early. So maybe it's something else like Gee said, maybe the myco hasn't hooked up yet.

I too like your system and ideologically believe all of us should have similar systems if we have any hope as a species. However, to achieve what you’re aiming for, requires a significant investment of time and energy into the processes as well as the materials. I’m just glad it’s you figuring out the kinks and not me lol.

Ha! Well I'm determined to fit the pieces together, just with my inputs, so I'm kinda plowing new ground.

It was one of those things I had to see for myself before I accepted it, and Gees the type of person who’ll let you argue with him and fail without rubbing it in. He just gets excited lol

He's been very patient as we have covered the same ground more than once. But, I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid. I'll get it eventually.

perhaps this is true....( giggle, snicker,snicker...)

You may need to hold on to that sense of humor for a while longer. But, I  am trying and do appreciate your help.

 

[Gee64]

Are we talking microbes in general like my worm castings or literally dissolving some Great White in some water and watering in?


Soil is 64*F. Container is a 1L SIP so constantly moist from wicking. I could let it dry a bit if it were helpful.


I do remember it and that's why I did put coco in the mix, splitting the carbon portion 50/50 coco/dried leaves.


I have enough coco for a few runs so I could use that instead, though it might be beneficial for future grows if I still include a little bit to have it start breaking down for subsequent runs?


What??!!! Dude, I made one change which was to include your stupid carbon and that's when the wheels fell off.

But I hear you. And my small containers add yet another twist to solving the riddle, but I'll get there.


I appreciate the hand holding. This is new ground for me so I'm thrilled I have you as my guide and am excited about how this will work once the pieces all come together.


Half of my carbon part  is coco, that's why I'm surprised to have the issues this early. So maybe it's something else like Gee said, maybe the myco hasn't hooked up yet.


Ha! Well I'm determined to fit the pieces together, just with my inputs, so I'm kinda plowing new ground.


He's been very patient as we have covered the same ground more than once. But, I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid. I'll get it eventually.


You may need to hold on to that sense of humor for a while longer. But, I  am trying and do appreciate your help.

1 week is simply way too fast for carbon to hog the nitro.

What I meant was so far you havent got to the finish line so if you just use coco for carbon, and then still use your crumbles and things. That way if it still pops up its not a carbon thing for sure, and if it goes away it was the leaves. Then move on from there with the carbon variable eliminated.

Once you get to the finish line for at least 2 grows then start moving towards your end game 1 step at a time so if a problem occurs you instantly know what it is.

Do you have a cheapo water meter probe thingy to see how wet your soil is?

On the myco container there should be mixing instrux for a myco root drench. Give it 7-10 days to see if it links up, or wasn't the problem. If it happened that quickly I would suspect myco 1st.

 

[Keffka]

Are we talking microbes in general like my worm castings or literally dissolving some Great White in some water and watering in

Great white. It has instructions for using it as a water feed/soil drench.. I believe a tsp per 2 gallons? I may be wrong about the measurements but, one of the benefits of using great white over other myco product often discussed here is it’s water soluble, so you can use it in your watering.

 

[Azimuth]

What I meant was so far you havent got to the finish line so if you just use coco for carbon, and then still use your crumbles and things. That way if it still pops up its not a carbon thing for sure, and if it goes away it was the leaves. Then move on from there with the carbon variable eliminated.

Once you get to the finish line for at least 2 grows then start moving towards your end game 1 step at a time so if a problem occurs you instantly know what it is.

Ok. Makes sense. Though I thought that what I was doing. My old mix would go about 6 weeks before running out of gas, and the only thing I changed this round was the added carbon piece, but I did add two different inputs so taking out the unproven one makes sense. I'll do that when I up-pot.

Do you have a cheapo water meter probe thingy to see how wet your soil is?

I do.

On the myco container there should be mixing instrux for a myco root drench. Give it 7-10 days to see if it links up, or wasn't the problem. If it happened that quickly I would suspect myco 1st.

Ok, thanks, I'll have a look.

 

[Azimuth]

Great white. It has instructions for using it as a water feed/soil drench.. I believe a tsp per 2 gallons? I may be wrong about the measurements but, one of the benefits of using great white over other myco product often discussed here is it’s water soluble, so you can use it in your watering.

Perfect.

 

[Gee64]

So I did some reading on leaves. I knew their carbon values varied, but I didn't realize by how much, and lignin is also a factor.

Leaves for the most part vary from 20 to 1 carbon to nitrogen ratio, to 70 to 1 carbon to nitrogen ratio. That means if you are 20 to 1, you actually have a lot of nitrogen available as regular compost is 30 to 1 and it burns. So if the leaves you are using are on the lower end (20 to 1) there is definitely the possibility they could self-compost.

Lignin is stubborn and is basically what makes some leaves take years to compost, so its a player too.

What all that means I have no idea but it may be an avenue that you may want to explore.

Coco varies between 50 to 1 and 90 to 1 so really there is very little compostable nitrogen available which would explain its stability.

 

[Gee64]

How wet is your soil in the ones not doing so well on the water stick meter?

 

[Azimuth]

Well, it's 1 plant in a SIP, so it stays pretty moist. I have it in a clear container and can see the roots are developing nicely.

 

[Azimuth]

So I did some reading on leaves. I knew their carbon values varied, but I didn't realize by how much, and lignin is also a factor.

Leaves for the most part vary from 20 to 1 carbon to nitrogen ratio, to 70 to 1 carbon to nitrogen ratio. That means if you are 20 to 1, you actually have a lot of nitrogen available as regular compost is 30 to 1 and it burns. So if the leaves you are using are on the lower end (20 to 1) there is definitely the possibility they could self-compost.

Lignin is stubborn and is basically what makes some leaves take years to compost, so its a player too.

What all that means I have no idea but it may be an avenue that you may want to explore.

Coco varies between 50 to 1 and 90 to 1 so really there is very little compostable nitrogen available which would explain its stability.

Did you find a table listing the different values? Mine are mostly maple and oak.

 

[Gee64]

Did you find a table listing the different values? Mine are mostly maple and oak.

no i didn't sorry.

 

[Gee64]

from what I just found, oak are 60 to 1 and high in lignin. Maple are 30 to 1 and low in lignin.

 

[Gee64]

From all the reading it states that uncomposted leaves should never be buried.

It was a warning in all the articles. They should be fully composted or molded and used as topdressing. They are pretty much looked at as a soil conditioner as they have a high cal/mag content and need to be up top for that to flow down.

That actually makes a lot of sense.

Oak has a pretty high mineral content and are actually edible, which gives them a nutritional value chart, but I couldn't find much on mineral value of maple.

 

[Azimuth]

Ok, thanks. And that makes perfect sense. Mother Nature doesn't go around burying carbon in the soil. She let's the leaves sit on top and naturally decompose and lets the worms and microbes pull it down in over time.

I'm thinking of turning all of my raw leaves into leaf mold and just using it as a topdressing to mimic what happens naturally. That's the next experiment, to see if I can accelerate the multi-year process it normally takes.

 

[Gee64]

What mother nature does doesn't get emptied out every grow though, she is no-till perpetual, so I don't know if that will supply enough carbon. I guess there is only 1 way to find out.

 

[Azimuth]

What mother nature does doesn't get emptied out every grow though, she is no-till perpetual, so I don't know if that will supply enough carbon. I guess there is only 1 way to find out.

And I'm just the guy to try it!

 

[Azimuth]

*** Small Batch Biochar ***

I am getting ready to make a new batch of soil and am in need of a small amount (1L) of biochar and thought I'd document how I do it.

Most of the DIY info I've found show you how to make 30-50 gallons of biochar for your garden, but I don't need anywhere near that much for my small pots.

The biochar concept comes from the Amazon Basin and the native peoples who needed to feed vast populations in what is pretty poor jungle soil and they created something calle Terra Preta, or "Black Soil" by burying human waste, broken pottery and charcoal from their fires in their soils. The char and pottery pieces have been dated to more than a thousand years old.

These soils became incredibly robust producers of foods for the popluation and scientists think that can be largely attributed to that buried charcoal. And even to this day, the soils seem to be able to regenerate themselves even as they are continually harvested and sold off for garden soil in Brazil.

Here's my How-To:

Virtually any organic material can be made into char but for our purposes we want something with some structure to it so for small batch I use stuff like small twigs, acorn caps, small chunks of bark, etc.

We need to heat the material to remove and offgas the volatiles while leaving the carbon structure behind. To do so we use a fireproof, mostly sealed container in which we heat the material.

I use a couple of food cans, and make a small hole in one of them with a nail for the gases to escape. I mate the cans together with a crimping tool used in the HVAC industry to join galvanize pipe together but it can just as easily be done with two cans of slightly different sizes, one inverted over the other, or even a single can covered with some aluminum foil if you're careful.

Fill your container with organic material, close it up and set it on coals in a fire pit or a bbq and let it heat up. As it does so, the gases will stream out the hole and will catch on fire.

Once the gases have fully been released you can remove the cans from the heat and put something over the hole to exclude oxygen, otherwise the coals inside will continue to burn and you'll be left with ashes rather than char.

Alternatively you can quench the char with water to cool it down. Doing it this way is said to open the pores in the material due to the release of steam as the water hits the hot carbon.

Be sure not to open up your container before it fully cools down so you don't re-ignite the burn. I usually just leave it overnight to cool before opening it.

That's it. To make the char into biochar you need to saturate the material in some nutrient rich material so either bury it in your compost pile or worm bin, or alternatively soak it in some nutrient rich water like worm casting tea or Jadam extracts.

If you don't take this step before adding it to your soil, the carbon will instead act like a filter (just like the carbon filters you use to filter air in your tents) and will soak up nutrients from your soil leaving your plants with deficiencies until the char is "charged" after which it will help buffer the soil moisture and nutrient levels and provide a home for microbes.

Biochar is some pretty incredible stuff, and making it in small batches is super easy if all you need a a small amount.

 

[Azimuth]

It's time for another experiment, this one inspired by Gee, and this time I'm combining a couple of different things, 1.) a new soil mix, and 2.) a slight design twist on my SIPs.

On the soil mix, I'm going to take the advice from @Gee64 and @Keffka and go with a more traditional blend. Out are the leaves and leaf mold (although I may still use them as a top dress) and in is coco for the carbon piece.

So the new mix is:

2P Organics split between worm castings and compost
2P Carbon from coco coir
2P Old Soil from a prior round of same strain
2P Perlite
1P Biochar

This should give me a good baseline with a mostly recommended, and successful, combination of inputs to which I've added biochar.

The second change is I'm going to add additional aeration to my 1L SIPs. In a normal SIP design there is an air gap between the water reservoir and the soil which allows for a much wetter mixture in the bottom of the container without producing the usual root rot typical in very wet soils.

The containers are watered through a fill tube, bypassing the soil and maintaining a moisture gradient in the pot, wetter at the bottom and less so further up.

The challenge with this setup is that in organic grows it is generally recommended to water from the top at least when adding nutrients to help activate the organics and microbes, and that can mess with the moisture gradient. In addition, in my small containers I seem to have excess moisture issues as I seem to have better results by letting my containers dry out a bit between waterings.

Letting them dry out a bit actually helps my plants grow better but that defeats one of the real benefits of the SIP design, that being the constant access to water and nutrients.

Soooo, I'm going to try adding extra aeration further up in the soil column and see if that extra air can help the upper roots benefit in a similar way to the bottom ones near the air gap. Initially I thought of adding another smaller dome on top of the one that defines the reservoir to accomplish the goal, but then had a classic Homer Simpson "Doh!" moment and realized I could accomplish the same outcome with no loss of soil volume by simply making holes all along the fill tubes already present in my pots.

I have two older clones that are almost identical in size and health that I've had sitting in the Limbo Land area of my veg space that I repotted into the new mix, one in the original SIP version and the other in what I'll call the vented SIP.

The normal one got watered from below and the vented one from above, and both will continue to be watered that way to see if the extra aeration up top can overcome my small pot moisture issue and the organic top watering messing with the moisture gradient issue.

I'll compare the two plants over time and each will get the same treatment, one from below and the other from above, and I'll see what I can learn in the process.