Photos, Soil, Mars Hydro Grow

Tom Sawyer said:
Yes. Water suppliers do put stuff in their supply for several reasons. They will use chlorine naturally, for disinfection and sometimes they get it a little hot due to a recent pipe line repair where outside water invaded the inside of the pipes. Yes it happens all the time during repairs. That’s why we see sand and grit too. When treating water we also use coagulants to settle out “floaties” and suspended particles. A popular one is Ferric sulfate. It’s rusty red looking liquid that is used in small injected quantity during the treatment process to settle out and suspended stuff. That usually settles out into the bottom of a large clarifier and the sludge created is drawn out from the bottom of the stilling well/sump area of the clarifier. This polishes up the visual clarity and the actual quality of the water and removes most suspended organic particles. We also use liquid polymers. They basically do the same thing. There are several different types and do just as good a job. But you don’t usually see polymers being used in potable water treatment, just wastewater treatment as there’s way more “solids” to remove. The bad news is that Chlorine is still in use in many wastewater plants in this country. But they use Sulfer Dioxide to neutralize the chlorine before finally leaving the plant and entering the effluent stream. Usually the level must be less than 0.10ppm to enter an effluent stream or body of water. But in potable water, I’ve seen an average of 2.00ppm-5.5+ppm in potable water. Ive also experienced PHs of 9.0+ in potable water. My average tap water here at the farm always runs hot on PH 8.5+ and Chlorine 2.3-5.0+ppm. If you can smell the chlorine to the point it reminds you of a swimming pool, it’s hot. Probably over a 2.5ppm. Chlorine can’t be good for a plant when it’s hotter than 5.0ppm. However, I can’t say that I’ve seen grass or weeds die because the water being applied to it had too much chlorine in it. At my facility, we’ve had water overflows where the chlorine dose was over a 5.0ppm. The plant life in the area simply didn’t care. But it was such a large area and the weather was warm so the chlorine dissipated relatively quickly. The solution to pollution is dilution. Just remember that.
PS I forgot to tell you the good news. Many wastewater treatment plants are switching from chlorine and sulfur dioxide disinfection processes, to much safer ultraviolet light disinfection. Huge channels with large banks of ultraviolet light bulbs sometimes 6 feet long in rows of 20 banks of 30 or 40 bulbs of very powerful ultraviolet light that kills and sterilizes anything that passes through the channel. Yes. We have to wear PPE to be around these systems. And if you think your light bulbs for growing are expensive cheer up. Just one of our light bulbs costs anywhere from $80- $120 A PIECE. And they burn out all the time. Or one of our employees decides to drop or step on one. Anyway. Just thought you guys would like to know a little about your potable water and the methods used to treat that water and the wastewater that you generate every day down your drains to the wastewater collections systems. (Sewers).
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Damned .... you sound like a scientist. I'm puzzled why anyone would even know all that unless they're in that line of work or prepping for Jeopardy .... LOL. Kind of reminds me of when I was a teenager reading "The Book of Useless Knowledge". Not saying it's useless to all. But most people wouldn't know any of that stuff off hand & would have to research it.
 
Emilya said:
Then logically, its not N def or N tox. Also, with the large amounts of Mg coming in with MC, I seriously doubt it is Mg def. But that is ok... explore every option other than the one that I have given you over and over again... and since I have seen so many of them, even in my own plants, I am very confident in still saying it is a K lockout. But that is ok... you have already decided that since we cant come to an agreement about this, it is better to give up on MC. I get it.
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So how do you fix a K lockout ? I'll give it a shot. Got nothing to lose so why not?
 
Fastass419 said:
I'll stick with my soil and just water it sounds like there is to much guess work with this MC
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That's kind of how I feel. Overwhelmed with this stuff giving me problems.
 
Hey all, just want to apologize for acting like an ass. I've got way too much stress in my life right now & it's getting the best of me. Unemployment has been denied 2 weeks in a row. No stimulus check yet. $3.00 & change in my pocket & no place to get money. Out of WEED (The Biggest Problem), out of cigs., down to a day or 2 of food, bills all late, etc., etc. Yeah, things are real bad & don't see a way out of it. 4 years of $600 payments on my car & now I might lose it. Yeah, I'm stressed Big Time. So once again, Sorry .
 
Your run off pH will and should always be lower than your input pH with soil because of the hydrogen ions released in the chemistry within the soil, most notably in nitrogen reactions. I run Fox Farm Ocean Forrest, pH to 6.5 every time and run off is steady at 6.1 everytime. When I pH to 6.4, my run off goes to 6.0. However when I use the soil pH meter it tests to a pH of 6.8.
I always flush with pH 6.5. Never anything else. I’m on 4 flushes with 3 gallon pots right now.
 
Buds Buddy said:
Hey all, just want to apologize for acting like an ass. I've got way too much stress in my life right now & it's getting the best of me. Unemployment has been denied 2 weeks in a row. No stimulus check yet. $3.00 & change in my pocket & no place to get money. Out of WEED (The Biggest Problem), out of cigs., down to a day or 2 of food, bills all late, etc., etc. Yeah, things are real bad & don't see a way out of it. 4 years of $600 payments on my car & now I might lose it. Yeah, I'm stressed Big Time. So once again, Sorry .
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Most everyone is going to work with you on your bills right now... many people are forgiving things. I know it is tough right now, but hang in there. The world will move past this soon. You are not alone.

Regarding your plant problem that I know is adding to your stress. The key to this mystery is found in Mulder's chart and what we know about MC. When they re-made the original formula, one of the driving reasons to do so was to add in the calmag that we in the cannabis world were needing... our plants are Ca and Mg hogs. So from version 2 on, there is plenty of calcium and magnesium in the MC to make it an all inclusive formula and because of these changes it is highly unlikely that we would ever again see a deficiency of those two elements. So to see damage and immediately assume that it is a magnesium deficiency is an error of not taking the entire situation into account.

GLN attempted to get the balance just right, so that just the right amount of Ca and Mg were in the mix, if you were giving the correct amount of MC, and that of course is gauged by the advice given in the fine tuning section of their website that we all like to argue about. If however you fail to heed the advice to back down on the MC as soon as you see tip burning or any leaf damage, you are then giving too much MC... and because of the balancing act going on, also too much Ca and Mg.

Now look at Mulder's chart. It clearly shows that if you have an excess of Mg in a grow medium, it locks out K (potassium). If you have an excess of Ca it also blocks potassium mobility. And then, as if that was not enough to set up a problem situation, there is a third negative interaction shown on the chart that applies here. Excess Nitrogen in the system also locks out potassium.

So although I keep getting shouted down by "those who know" that this could not possibly be what is happening, when you give too much MC you are also giving too much Ca, MG and N. This triple hit is what is locking out your potassium. The similar leaf damage top and bottom confirms it, it is a mobile element lockout.

So what do you do to fix this? Less MC, no calmag and patience. The plant will recover as best it can once it can get to the nutrients it needs.
mulders chart.png
 
Fastass419 said:
Man that suck I still haven't got my unemployment yet either my buddy did get his stimulus check already maybe you'll get your this week
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No chance of that. I usually have to pay. Haven't got a refund in over 10 years. So I can't even give my banking info until the 17th.
 
Emilya said:
The similar leaf damage top and bottom confirms it
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When you say similar leaf damage Top & Bottom I'm not sure what you mean. None of the Top Leaves are yellowing at all. It's all at the bottom & working it's way up the center.
Only Top leaf damage was the N tox. Hook Leaves which all new growth does not have.
Never the less, I did go back down to 5 grams on all 3 plants. When I checked the plants this morning it doesn't look like any more new leaves yellowed. I've been finding about 10 new leaves per day yellowing until now. 1st day it didn't do that.
 
Buds Buddy said:
When you say similar leaf damage Top & Bottom I'm not sure what you mean. None of the Top Leaves are yellowing at all. It's all at the bottom & working it's way up the center.
Only Top leaf damage was the N tox. Hook Leaves which all new growth does not have.
Never the less, I did go back down to 5 grams on all 3 plants. When I checked the plants this morning it doesn't look like any more new leaves yellowed. I've been finding about 10 new leaves per day yellowing until now. 1st day it didn't do that.
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Sorry if I got yours confused then... there are about 3 MC grows out there right now with very similar damage, and it is showing both top and bottom in most cases, and I thought I had seen some of that same damage here. None the less, I still maintain that this inexplicable damage you are seeing does have a reason... K lockout. Backing down to 5 was a good call I think and I hope it slows down the progression of this problem. On my next run I will probably increase the MC a bit each watering in veg or at least every other watering, until I get up to 4 or 4.5... from then on, it is going to take a major act of congress or severe complaining from the plants to make me go any higher... and some day I do want to grow a plant that is capable of handling 6g in soil... so far, I have not met one.
 
Fastass419 said:
@Emilya since mc has everything the plants need should it be grown in just ph neutral soil with no nukes so it would help with not having lockouts
Like if I used it with my soil ot would be way to much right? Idk I'm just shooting in the dark I guess thinking out loud but was wondering
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The base pH of the soil is not the problem and MC is mobile over most of the old hydro and soil pH ranges, so that is not likely to be the problem either. I didn't pH adjust my grow using MC and tap water during the entire grow because I knew it was not nearly as important to do so as in a traditional salt based nutrient grow where the pH needed to be within a certain small range for the nutes to be available to the plant. I don't believe that the lockouts have anything to do with pH, it is all because of the interactions between the minerals, according to Mulder's chart of interactions.
 
Fastass419 said:
Yes that's what I was wondering sorry I didn't word it right if I buy super soil like my Coast of Maine platinum with all of nukes in it already can this cause a problem with the MC
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No, it will not cause any trouble because the nutrients in the supersoil are still in their raw form and are not available to the plants until the microbes break them down into their mineral components, so there is no adverse interactions happening there according to mulder's chart. A plant being fed MC has the nutrients moved directly into the plant via the water so mineral availability in the soil is not even a factor in these interactions, except for several of the raw nutrients forms that are in the MC and which stay in the soil.
Since part of the magic that happens in an organic grow comes from the plants, giving signals to the microbes which nutrients they would like to be fed, it is this part of the organic feeding cycle that gets interrupted when feeding with MC. Since the plants are getting everything they need fed directly into them, they have no need of extra things from the soil and the roots and this communication between the plants and the microbes stops happening. If the plants are not rewarding and signaling to the microbes what is needed, the microbes stop doing their jobs and the "organic" part of the grow stops functioning. Your Coast of Main soil will be just as strong and ready to use in an organic grow as it is today, after your complete run with MC. The two systems do not interact at all and if you stopped giving MC and instead re-instituted the microlife in that container, the organic grow would take off right where you left it without the MC. I ran this last MC grow in very strongly mineralized supersoil and had absolutely no adverse effects from doing so, and it gave my well used supersoil a break for one season.
 
You'll figure it out. Even if you don't you'll still make it to harvest. Those plants will power through it.

Not much guessing for me I've stuck to a pretty simple strategy this grow seems to be working so far.

If you think about it it's exactly the same as the other nutes just different unit of measurement. But I don't pH, even though I check Everytime. Don't have to worry about multiple bottles etc etc you know the wrap.

Life is tough for a lot of people I feel for ya. I'm not rich myself. But look at the bright side: you live in America, could be in Italy, Spain, or some shit hole in China.

Have patience shitll work out. Just keep working at it. We have similar grows, you haven't really done anything I haven't and vica versa. Whatever the problem is it doesn't seem like anything crazy . For now atleast. When my BD had the cal mag problem she was sooooo ugly, brown spots and shit. She also ended up yielding about 140grams and it's fire. So it's definitely not over!

Wish I could help more:/
 
Buds Buddy said:
I'm pretty sure you are right. Not sure how to fix it without getting another N tox. though.
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First you have to find out the pH of the soil. I can tell you to drop the MC and add Calmag but if the pH in the media is off it won't help.

I always tell growers to check things out themself if they can. Watch this vid

then watch this one

You can decide on your own at this point which makes more sense.
 
Havocsm1 said:
You'll figure it out. Even if you don't you'll still make it to harvest. Those plants will power through it.

Not much guessing for me I've stuck to a pretty simple strategy this grow seems to be working so far.

If you think about it it's exactly the same as the other nutes just different unit of measurement. But I don't pH, even though I check Everytime. Don't have to worry about multiple bottles etc etc you know the wrap.

Life is tough for a lot of people I feel for ya. I'm not rich myself. But look at the bright side: you live in America, could be in Italy, Spain, or some shit hole in China.

Have patience shitll work out. Just keep working at it. We have similar grows, you haven't really done anything I haven't and vica versa. Whatever the problem is it doesn't seem like anything crazy . For now atleast. When my BD had the cal mag problem she was sooooo ugly, brown spots and shit. She also ended up yielding about 140grams and it's fire. So it's definitely not over!

Wish I could help more:/
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Thanks for the encouragement. I've been on the phone 1/2 the day getting my unemployment straightened out. The unemployment office removed me from the company I work for Shared Work Program so I can file tomorrow. 2 weeks fighting it, but got it done so things are looking up.
 
MrSauga said:
First you have to find out the pH of the soil. I can tell you to drop the MC and add Calmag but if the pH in the media is off it won't help.

I always tell growers to listen to the experts before taking advice from the wannabe's.

then watch this one

You can decide on your own at this point which makes more sense.
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After watching the video's I would say it's a K def. Those leaves look exactly like mine do & it's doing exactly what he said it would. Reason I think this is because of the sides of the leaves are burning like the pics in the video & it's traveling fast.
I don't think it's Mag after seeing the video.
I didn't get really dark green leaves before yellowing, it's not traveling slow & I don't really have the rust spots like in the video.
Any chance it could be a little of each ?
Thanks so much for those video's. I'm going to be searching you tube for Lex's world now.
I like the way he explains things in simple terms I can understand. I'm not a very technical type of guy so all those scientific terms posters tend to use confuses me even more. 1/2 the time I don't know what they're even talking about using those words the scientists use. I want to ask if they can repeat that in English sometimes ... LOL.
 
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